Anita Sarkeesian has disclosed what she has done with the Kickstarter money

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bsod said:
You missed my point. Are we still talking about it so many years after the fact (outside of now, that is)?
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What was your point? That there weren't any criticism of explicit porn ads 20 years ago? And you base this notion on your own anecdotal experience 20 years ago or do you actual have something to back up your claim? And that because you weren't exposed to anyone having a problem with porn ads in gaming mags, then...what?

EDIT: Maybe I'm misreading your post and I apologize if that is the case.
 
Raist said:
Not that I'm aware of, but yeah, reasonably there should be since male prostitutes do represent a significant proportion AFAIK.

However I think that for people like Sarkeesian equality is not really the actual issue.
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Specifically, in this instance it's about agency. That's part of equality.
 
Strange Young Man said:
If we stick to the example of GTA, what about the common activity of mowing down pedestrians if it means getting to the mission objective more quickly? I'd imagine anyone that felt "fucking uncomfortable" about murdering sex workers would feel the same about murdering pedestrians. In which case it's hard to imagine them being about to enjoy GTA type games in any capacity.
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Well there's that. How do people who enjoy this kind of game get past the "I'm being encouraged to do evil things" factor? But that's off topic here so please don't pile on with your explanations. PM me if you like.
 
Stet said:
I'm confused. Why should we put energy towards removing something that's already been removed?
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I guess I wasn't clear. I was responding to the notion that 20 years from now people will look back at that Hitman ad with disgust. I think that's overly dramatic since there's been far worse ads in the past that most people don't remember, and nobody cares about anymore.
 
bsod said:
I guess I wasn't clear. I was responding to the notion that 20 years from now people will look back at that Hitman ad with disgust. I think that's overly dramatic since there's been far worse ads in the past that most people don't remember, and nobody cares about anymore.
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Don't take the phrase so literally. Phrases "20 years in the future.." refer to assumptions of social progress. Things we tolerate now or things we consider the norm now will be socially unacceptable in the future in the same way we look back at history and are appalled at attitudes and events that would go unremarked upon by people living in those past periods.
 
DragonGirl said:
Don't take the phrase so literally. Phrases "20 years in the future.." refer to assumptions of social progress. Things we tolerate now or things we consider the norm now will be socially unacceptable in the future in the same way we look back at history and are appalled at attitudes and events that would go unremarked upon by people living in those past periods.
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Even if you take it figuratively, I don't think that's true either when you consider Jessica Rabbit, Marilyn Monroe, Raquel Welch, etc. and if you look even further there's a lot of artwork hundreds to thousands of years old that is NSFW that is reminiscent of that ad. Sex has been and always will be used to titillate for a variety of purposes as long as we're still biological beings. I just find it really hard believe that this specific ad is in the same vein as blaxsploitation films or Mickey Rooney doing racist Asian impressions. Is it sexist? I honestly don't think so. What's so exploitative or discriminatory about it? I think some people have a hard time differentiating between sexy and sexist TBH.
 
Orayn said:
Anita Sarkeesian is a feminist media critic and the creator of a Kickstarter-funded web series called Tropes vs. Women in Video Games that explores the role of commonly used storytelling conventions (tropes) in games. She's been subject to massive amounts of stalking and threats since starting the campaign, all because some incredibly shitty and immature people erroneously believe that evil feminists want to take away their video games.
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foltzie1 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anita_Sarkeesian
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Oh.

Yeah, I'm not touching this one.
 
bsod said:
I guess I wasn't clear. I was responding to the notion that 20 years from now people will look back at that Hitman ad with disgust. I think that's overly dramatic since there's been far worse ads in the past that most people don't remember, and nobody cares about anymore.
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"Remember how offended a few people were at this ad 20 years ago?"
 
bsod said:
Even if you take it figuratively, I don't think that's true either when you consider Jessica Rabbit, Marilyn Monroe, Raquel Welch, etc. and if you look even further there's a lot of artwork hundreds to thousands of years old that is NSFW that is reminiscent of that ad. Sex has been and always will be used to titillate for a variety of purposes as long as we're still biological beings. I just find it really hard believe that this specific ad is in the same vein as blaxsploitation films or Mickey Rooney doing racist Asian impressions. Is it sexist? I honestly don't think so. What's so exploitative or discriminatory about it? I think some people have a hard time differentiating between sexy and sexist TBH.
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It's the specific intersection of violence against women and look at this sexy corpse. Also, you always need to keep in mind these things aren't problematic on an individual basis. They are problematic because they are part of an epidemic of negative representation/narrative running rampant through our cultures (and concentrated within all forms of popular media). Also, as per your examples. Yes, those things do also get criticized within film studies or other circles that focus on them (as do old fashioned advertisements). They don't get criticized by the regular consumer so much simply because they aren't current and thus, not as commonly viewed by the regular public. Video games are a current media phenomenon and so are a current discussion topic. Who knows in 20 years.
 
DragonGirl said:
It's the specific intersection of violence against women and look at this sexy corpse. Also, you always need to keep in mind these things aren't problematic on an individual basis. They are problematic because they are part of an epidemic of negative representation/narrative running rampant through our cultures (and concentrated within all forms of popular media). Also, as per your examples. Yes, those things do also get criticized within film studies or other circles that focus on them (as do old fashioned advertisements). They don't get criticized by the regular consumer so much simply because they aren't current and thus, not as commonly viewed by the regular public. Video games are a current media phenomenon and so are a current discussion topic. Who knows in 20 years.
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I get where you're coming from, but I don't agree with you on this. That's like saying any depiction of a woman being harmed in some fashion is inherently sexist. I still don't see what's so discriminatory about it. Would it have helped if she was unattractive? I'll concede that there's a fine line between "clever" and sexy and just plain sexist. For example:

italian-fashion-company-relish-was-slammed-for-this-ad-which-pictures-rio-de-janeiro-police-officers-groping-two-models-the-ads-were-run-on-billboards-in-italy.jpg


The sexism in that is pretty apparent. An ad, however, feature a dead, attractive woman with the headline "Beautifully executed", however, I don't think fits that bill.

Also, I'll have to disagree with you on your point about why people don't discuss older examples of sexual symbols/icons in popular culture. You're telling me that Marilyn Monroe is no longer relevant? Contrary to your point of view, many people today, in fact, view her as a feminist icon. I think some people are trying to be so sensitive to sexism that they're starting to inadvertently becoming "white knights" for lack of a better term and coming to the rescue when none was needed.
 
bsod said:
I get where you're coming from, but I don't agree with you on this. That's like saying any depiction of a woman being harmed in some fashion is inherently sexist.
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No, it's about sexual imagery and arousal coupled with violence that is the problem. It isn't the violence in itself, but also the sexualized nature of the victims in question.

I still don't see what's so discriminatory about it. Would it have helped if she was unattractive? I'll concede that there's a fine line between "clever" and sexy and just plain sexist. For example:

The sexism in that is pretty apparent. An ad, however, feature a dead, attractive woman with the headline "Beautifully executed", however, I don't think fits that bill.
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Just watch FF's Women as Background Decoration on why sexualized violence against women is problematic.
 
People still getting mad at Anita Sarkeesian almost three years later because she got money over Kickstarter, should be probably be super rewarding to the people who donated. 95% of those people probably donated just to spite those people in the first place. Seems like the return on investments they got is a lot greater than your average Kickstarter could ever give.
 
bsod said:
italian-fashion-company-relish-was-slammed-for-this-ad-which-pictures-rio-de-janeiro-police-officers-groping-two-models-the-ads-were-run-on-billboards-in-italy.jpg


The sexism in that is pretty apparent. An ad, however, feature a dead, attractive woman with the headline "Beautifully executed", however, I don't think fits that bill.
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A sexualised portrayal of a female corpse. Perhaps it might help you to see the problem if you consider how many sexually charged depictions of male corpses you've ever seen in ads.

Monroe depicted her characters, and her public persona, as having agency. A corpse has none.
 
Oersted said:
Doesn't make it any better, but yeah, not surprising. May I ask, since when became such sexual objectification clever and not backwards? Atleast to you, mind you.
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I've evolved to a point where I could look at the picture without sexually objectifying the woman. I got the double entendre, I got the intent, I thought the picture and the caption "beautifully executed" was clever in the context of the advertisement and I don't see the problem.

Shock horreur, I'm an adult, and I can discern between a creative attempt at trying to market a game about a man who gets hired to murder other men for money, and the actual exploitation and objectification of women.

If you want to be outraged at something game-related from 2006, might I suggest Dead or Alive Xtreme 2.
 
hotnheavyload said:
I've evolved to a point where I could look at the picture without sexually objectifying the woman. I got the double entendre, I got the intent, I thought the picture and the caption "beautifully executed" was clever in the context of the advertisement and I don't see the problem.

Shock horreur, I'm an adult, and I can discern between a creative attempt at trying to market a game about a man who gets hired to murder other men for money, and the actual exploitation and objectification of women.

If you want to be outraged at something game-related from 2006, might I suggest Dead or Alive Xtreme 2.
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Well...most of us are pretty desensitized, myself included. (You probably couldn't shock me if you tried. o___o)

But the whole video was about sex crimes being used to make the player feel cool. It's badly trivialized by the fact that these characters are background decoration. Meaning they're only there for the...decor. Their only contribution to the game is to look sexy and get killed while looking sexy.

Surely you can understand why that would have prejudicial implications? And also be in extremely poor taste.
 
CSM said:
People still getting mad at Anita Sarkeesian almost three years later because she got money over Kickstarter, should be probably be super rewarding to the people who donated. 95% of those people probably donated just to spite those people in the first place. Seems like the return on investments they got is a lot greater than your average Kickstarter could ever give.
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The cost has been high for Anita Sarkeesian. She only wanted a little small change to make some films about sexist representations of women in video games.
 
Lime said:
No, it's about sexual imagery and arousal coupled with violence that is the problem. It isn't the violence in itself, but also the sexualized nature of the victims in question.
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That does nothing at all to explain the sexist accusations. Saying woman + violence = inherently sexist is not good enough. Let me ask you again, would it have been better if she was unattractive? Also, you're ignoring the play on words that the ad hinges on.

Lalalandia said:
I'm sure you have examples to share?
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Examples of what? Porn ads in old gaming mags or that people today don't give a shit about its presence back then? If the former, find some old PC gaming magazines. If the latter, the fact that you need examples is proof enough.

tonysidaway said:
A sexualised portrayal of a female corpse. Perhaps it might help you to see the problem if you consider how many sexually charged depictions of male corpses you've ever seen in ads.
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I can probably count on one hand the number of women I've seen portrayed sexually as a female corpse.
 
stump sock said:
.
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Now there's something that you can't defend, and it was controversial even when that became public. However, unlike the Hitman ad since there's nothing clever about it. It's just a bust with big tits. It's not even the violence part that's sexist. It's a very fine line, and a lot of what determines which side something falls on falls on the execution (no pun intended). This is plain tacky.
 
bsod said:
In advertisements? I guess I haven't paid as much attention as I should have.
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No there aren't subreddits dedicated to sexualized female corpses solely in advertising. Just corpses of women in general. They certainly do include those in advertising though. If we're just concerned with advertising then along with the examples of Hitman and Dead Island, there's dozens of examples found at.... the post above (Berzeli beat me).
 
Thanks for all the new info everyone. I'm starting to reconsider my earlier position in light of the prevalence of this type of imagery I wasn't aware of.
 
bsod said:
Thanks for all the new info everyone. I'm starting to reconsider my earlier position in light of the prevalence of this type of imagery I wasn't aware of.
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You might not pay much attention to the fashion industry but it has a long time habit of putting traditionally attractive women in increasingly shocking positions and situations which has grown to the point of violence and death being portrayed in their marketing today. The point is to inspire shock (and arousal) with an image that stays with a consumer, and along with it the product featured piggybacks its way. Of course this has began to leak into other industries as it has a proven effectiveness.
 
bsod said:
That does nothing at all to explain the sexist accusations. Saying woman + violence = inherently sexist is not good enough. Let me ask you again, would it have been better if she was unattractive? Also, you're ignoring the play on words that the ad hinges on.
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Just watch the video.
 
Foffy said:
We got solutions from Jonathan McIntosh, who is a producer and co-write for Anita's Tropes series: make games that aren't fun - fun is a word used for "power and violence over things" to paraphrase his own words - and we need to get rid of the childish "saturday morning cartoon" themes about games. I guess he wants games to always be this super stern serious critical analysis of the cosmos. Games are not philosophy, folks: they're mostly consumeristic jazz.

If those are the solutions, then the series really is nothing more than fluff. I think McIntosh is caught in his own egoic bubble, and I worry any sincere attempt at raising awareness to whatever issue some may find sincere about all this to be clouded by this man's pseudo crusade. I do hope Anita has a different view.
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Can you provide a link where I can read his words? I'm curious. Thanks.
 
Foffy said:
We got solutions from Jonathan McIntosh, who is a producer and co-write for Anita's Tropes series: make games that aren't fun - fun is a word used for "power and violence over things" to paraphrase his own words - and we need to get rid of the childish "saturday morning cartoon" themes about games. I guess he wants games to always be this super stern serious critical analysis of the cosmos. Games are not philosophy, folks: they're mostly consumeristic jazz.

If those are the solutions, then the series really is nothing more than fluff. I think McIntosh is caught in his own egoic bubble, and I worry any sincere attempt at raising awareness to whatever issue some may find sincere about all this to be clouded by this man's pseudo crusade. I do hope Anita has a different view.
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Is that so? I'd like to read that context, because it sounds a bit like censorship.
 
Corronchilejano said:
https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/537908024371732480

Read all the tweets. The idea wasn't McIntoshs', he was retweeting an idea from someone else.
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Well yeah, it's kind of frustrating that there's this notion that games have to be fun. It would be like insisting all movies have to be positive and happy. Gameplay can be well designed and engaging without being "fun", but used to instill other emotions. The Lizard Trial in Heavy Rain is a good example, the monotonous paperwork of Papers Please or the bleak nature of This War of Mine
 
More_Badass said:
Well yeah, it's kind of frustrating that there's this notion that games have to be fun. It would be like insisting all movies have to be positive and happy. Gameplay can be well designed and engaging without being "fun", but used to instill other emotions. The Lizard Trial in Heavy Rain is a good example, the monotonous paperwork of Papers Please or the bleak nature of This War of Mine
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Or my favorite sadness of all time, To The Moon.
 
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