mgs2master2
Banned
So how long til after I get Quiet, who is jail right now, will I be able to use her as a buddy?
SPOILER: Spoiler Metal Gear Solid V (TPS) Spoiler Thread (Contains Spoilers, Thanos).
- Thread starter Love Deterrence
- Start date
- Status
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The second Eli turns into Psycho Mantis and disappears, the two have a connection.
I'll take your word for it, but I don't think "hack" would be in the vocabulary of somebody who gets upset about their favourite video game character not being in a sequel/prequel.
This isn't really the discussion for me to have, though. I wouldn't call myself a fan of the franchise anymore. I just want to see a trainwreck.
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
Not at all; Solid Snake as a character (i.e. the sum of his personality, thoughts, emotions and actions) stays the same. The only thing that has changed is the context around him, which (if anything) only makes Solid Snake a much more tragic hero. Which I actually enjoy quite a bit, especially since it fits the overarching themes of deception, betrayal, the vapidness of the term "hero", etc.
You can argue that the game has has ruined your previous perception of Big Boss, but saying that it has ruined Solid Snake as a character is just a bit wrong. Nothing in The Phantom Pain has changed Solid Snake.
Well, at least you're being honest about it, which is more than a lot of other people here can say.
TwoDurans
"Never said I wasn't a hypocrite."
Keep playing. Once you finish mission 14, you'll get a Side Op to talk to Ocelot about her. After that she's available as a buddy.
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
Is that the one where you have to capture a truck but then get ambushed by Skulls?
The answer is: don't drive away with the truck until you have defeated or incapacitated the Skulls. They'll only smash the truck if you're in it, so if you get out and fight them, they'll leave it alone. So, yes, you have to kill them all (or most). It's easier if you equip explosive weaponry before the mission, but you can also take em out with regular guns if you wait for them to get in their "fleshy" state. And don't forget to dodge the rocks they throw at you.
The answer is: don't drive away with the truck until you have defeated or incapacitated the Skulls. They'll only smash the truck if you're in it, so if you get out and fight them, they'll leave it alone. So, yes, you have to kill them all (or most). It's easier if you equip explosive weaponry before the mission, but you can also take em out with regular guns if you wait for them to get in their "fleshy" state. And don't forget to dodge the rocks they throw at you.
The Silver
Member
Uh, you realize that BB being Solid's father is a retcon from MGS1, there is no "moment".
Err that's what I said.
This is why I said this changes things for me, indeed nowhere in MG1/MG2 does Big Boss say "I am your father" but when snake described the way Big Boss told him in MGS1 naturally makes you have an image in your mind of what happened. For me this is ruined.
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
I honestly don't understand the hate for Sutherland and the love for Hayter. Well, in a way I do, of course; Hayter was instantly recognizable as Snake and one of the more iconic voice actors in gaming because of it. I understand some people might need time to get to terms with the absence of such a beloved voice.
But let's be honest here, guys: he was cheesier than a Friday evening fondue. His Snake voice was a very forced one; the gravel in his voice was in no way part of his own, natural timbre. The effort he had to do to attain that iconic sound stood in the way of more nuanced performances and portrayal of emotions.
... Which was fine for most MGS games, of course. But both MGS V games are darker, grittier, more realistic games. They contain scenes that require more natural and nuanced performances, and someone like Sutherland (who has a natural gravelly voice and is an experienced actor) fits the bill a lot more than Hayter. The latter would've butchered some scenes due to his theatrical portrayal, I'm positive of it.
Snake was Hayter's Batman voice. It was cool and iconic, sure, but it stood in the way of anything remotely believable.
I was undoubtedly convinced of Sutherland's casting the moment I saw the cutscene where he saves Paz in GZ. There's no way Hayter could've pulled off something that whispery and subtle.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
You're trying hard to defend this game and at the the same time "discredit" those like me who do not like the twist :'( , but you're missing the point here, in my opinion.
To retcon is a thing, but some of us just can't deal with all of this. It destroys the figure of Big Boss as well as changing too many things and trying to explain some others with bullshit science. MGSV as a game itself is fine (great actually) but you've, let's say, responsabilities when you're making the (last?) chapter of a saga that has almost 30 years. You can change details like Big Boss's eye lost in MGS3 and not in MG, but this? No, just no.
What Kojima has done here. pretty much, is turning Big Boss to a "status" when he was a single person, a person whose birth we've seen in MGS3 which was a big part of his charm. He's a leader, a skilled warrior, the greatest soldier ever lived who spent his life to achieve a dream of freedom for soldiers like him at the cost of his life. He's the one who screams at the sky when a comrade dies in his arms, who spares Ocelot's life because "he's still young". And yet, he was known as a terrorist and a criminal, just like The Boss, and in MGSV I wanted to see why and how that happened. This man was respected and feared even after his death, someone you cannot replace with anyone else. He's the man which existence marked 50 years of history in the MGS universe: the genome soldiers, Patriot's AI, LET project. The man who inspired Ocelot, trained Solid Snake, saved some of the characters we all love like Wolf and Frank Jaeager, who comes on his side in MG2 because he believed in the same thing BB did, and in MGSV I wanted to see this idea comes to life.
Back to the meaning of status. To be a Snake" is a status, something that condemn your existence to fight forever, shared by the 3 brothers. The same Big Boss, the first of the Snakes, was the one who freed the latest Snake alive from this fate, telling him "it's over, you can live your own life now".
MGSV was the perfect chance to see the rise of this leader, PO with the introduction of soldier's recruiting and PW with the mother base were a nice starter. They had the chance to make BB to overcome the most difficult odds and to make him realize that the concept of Outer Heaven would work only with nuclear deterrent, that he could not live outside of the battlefield because he was a Snake. I wanted to see this leader become the legend of MGS1.
And what they did? They made him a coward. He was afraid of death because of a that clown called SkullFace. All of a sudden, Big Boss is no more.
If only this Medic was someone we knew, someone we cared about. Kojima tried to say that we're Big Boss and I have no words to explain how much he failed to deliver.
I don't like any of this, sorry.
Fuck. How boring... Deeply disappointed with that.
Thank for replying!
You see, that's the thing. For a franchise so fucking full of cheese like this one, including this supposedly "super serious and dark" game that ended up being as goofy and cheesy as the rest, Hayter fits the bill perfectly.
Did Hayter become a goofy parody of his MGS self? Yes. But isn't that kind of the point? After MGS the series kept going into goofier and goofier territories to the point of almost becoming a parody of itself. Hayter delivered because he sounded like a cartoon in a cartoony series.
Sutherland doesn't. He tries too hard to sound serious but butchers the deliveries and overall feels "off" with the rest of the characters and situations. I feel a huge disconnection to what I see, and what I hear. I believe Kojima has said he wanted a more subtle delivery for Big Boss this time around, but the entire game is NOT subtle, so Kiefer's not the man for this job.
If Hayter was truly removed for his performance (Which I highly doubt), there are other actors who could've fit as Big Boss A LOT better than Kiefer. Hell, hire fucking John Cygan. He delivers a perfect villain performance and not only he sounds GREAT (And how I imagine an older Big Boss SHOULD sound), but he is also cartoony and fits with the series.
I mean, listen to this and honestly tell me Kiefer can compete as Big Boss. Cygan has a very strong, commanding voice. He sounds like a cartoon villain, but he still commands a very powerful presence. You can feel he IS a no-nonsense commander that is willing to commit attrocities for what he considers the "greater good". Kiefer? Not so much. Not only he cannot pronounce things right, but his voice is too soft.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1q-lLZ0dPM
entremet
Member
Solid and Liquid. Or is this the new trailer?
i can't beat them man...takes like 50 missle attacks and i only got 5
razzmahtazz
Member
You were insinuating that Solid's character changes from the what we know because he wasnt really betrayed by his father. But it doesnt. BB still betrayed him no matter what.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The setup for the scene is contrived as hell, before the mission we're told about how important it is for the mission to be completed, Big Boss surprisingly admits that he needs backup, so...backup includes the unstable kid who's tried to kill Big Boss multiple times?Fuck. How boring... Deeply disappointed with that.
Thank for replying!
theSecondAgent
Neo Member
Finally somebody who gets it. I always felt bad for Sutherland after the hate he got. Personally, I think he's a fantastic actor, and after the twists reveal makes complete sense. Seriously, gamers want bigger better things, but when changes are made, people go mental. For me, games are all about the risk.
The way I see it, Venom is pretty much a newborn baby. Compare him to Big Boss on the bike, and you can see Venom is far less confident in his actions. The facial animations are fantastic. They speak louder than any cheesy dialog the player has received in the past. People wanted more gameplay than 1hour cutscenes, and were given exactly that.
I love Hayter, but lets face it....his role in PW weren't exactly well delivered. Also, he kinda lost any respect after his Twitter meltdown. Sutherland actually gained a ton of respect from me after his heartfelt speech at the game awards.
But the personality, thoughts, emotions and actions have been retconned though, why would Venom Snake tell Solid Snake that he's his father if Venom knew that he wasn't Big Boss and was working freely for Big Boss? It doesn't make sense, Venom is told in TPP that Liquid isn't his Son/Clone so why would he come out to Liquids brother and tell him he is?
If he did it as a mind fuck then all of the above is wrong. It still doesn't change the fact that for me, Solid Snakes determination in MGS1 is fake, he isn't the legend made out to be, as you pointed out it makes him a tragic hero, how though? He isn't a hero at all if all he did was kill Venom Snake, a fake ruler of Outer Heaven.
To be fair, and if my memory works, Big Boss tells Solid to be his father in MG2.
guybrushfreeman
Unconfirmed Member
Is there a non-webm link for this somewhere?
MAX PAYMENT
Member
Team BB>SS
Man what a shit retcon.
ShadowKingpin
Member
Does anyone have a link to the endings?
mgs2master2
Banned
i have a request, is there a clip around when you rescue kaz and he says "what took you so long?" I want to make a gif of that
as far as i remember BB only says hes SS father in MG2 not MG1
snake_eater_raiden
Member
Sorry buddy! He tells he is his father in MG2. However, now that Venom Snake is BB in MG1, it means SS got trained by VS? I donno man. MGSV has made things more complicated more than they were meant to be,
The Silver
Member
Where are you getting that Venom was the one who told Solid he was his dad?
The only thing we get from MGS1 regarding it is that it happened and the Colonel mentioned Zanzibar(which is with the real BB), we have no idea when it actually happened or how BB told him.
Nope, that was a retcon for MGS. In the original MG2 there is no such dialogue.
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
It'd only be "trying too hard" if I didn't have decent arguments.
I'm not trying to discredit anyone - in fact, I acknowledged that in the end people should enjoy media the way they see fit - so it feels like you're lashing out at me because you feel targeted by me.
I know. That's what I said: some people will get impacted by stuff like this emotionally, to a point where it blocks them from taking in the game properly.
It's a thing; it's OK, and I respect it. I just don't think it's fair for most people who experience a disappointment of the magnitude where it halts the enjoyable consumption of the product, to partake in a discussion of the game's true artistic value. That's why all the proper readings of Sons of Liberty came out years later; not because it was overly complicated, but because it took a lot of people time to get over Raiden as "a whiney bitch who stands in the way of me being cool motherfucker Solid Snake" and finally being able to read the essence of Raiden. To claim that they can have a proper reading (and thus, judgement) of The Phantom Pain whilst they're obviously still riled up emotionally by it, is both pretentious and disingenious.
This shit takes time. These people need to take that time. It's OK to not have a proper opinion in the week of the game's release.
The destruction of the Big Boss mythos is exactly the point, and that it immediately changes the context of other events is a logical next step. Also: "bullshit" is the antithesis of "science", so what you probably mean is that you don't personally like the fact that the more supernatural stuff has been downplayed in favor of a more realistic reasoning... which the series has been doing ever since Peace Walker.
Anyway none of those points are negative in themselves; you just don't find them enjoyable because of how it different it is from what you found enjoyable in the other games. Which is exactly what I was talking about.
Bullshit. This is the exact fandom entitlement I was talking about.
The only responsibility Kojima has is to his own satisfaction as an artist. (A strong artistic vision will always be divisive; that's the sign of great art.) You can never convey a strong message if you have thousands of people to please, similar to how you will never truly make any real friends if you try to be friends with everyone.
Exactly: YOU wanted to see something that Kojima wasn't interesting in telling. And because of that disappointment, you're not properly reading that which he IS telling.
You'll be back. And your opinion will be milder.
Exactly. They made him into not-such-a-legendary-soldier.
Brilliant.
Funny, because I spend so many hours playing as him, that I naturally grew attached to him, which gave the ending a big emotional impact. I don't understand how that connection hasn't taken place with you ye...
Oh. Wait.
funkystudent
Member
Sounds like the story is everything I feared.
Lack of VO from Keifer.
Answerers no big questions about how we go from peace walker to MG1
Big Boss / Zero rivalry is barely touched on.
Story is just "another adventure of Big Boss where be beats some random bad guy"
The whole body double thing is OK in my book on paper but it seems like they did nothing with it in the end other then "IT WAS ACTUALLY A FAKE BIG BOSS IN OUTER HEAVEN LOL". And even that doesnt seem to be explained outside of one line of text in the credits. Its a twist for the sake of a twist that doesnt seem to add anything.
Lack of VO from Keifer.
Answerers no big questions about how we go from peace walker to MG1
Big Boss / Zero rivalry is barely touched on.
Story is just "another adventure of Big Boss where be beats some random bad guy"
The whole body double thing is OK in my book on paper but it seems like they did nothing with it in the end other then "IT WAS ACTUALLY A FAKE BIG BOSS IN OUTER HEAVEN LOL". And even that doesnt seem to be explained outside of one line of text in the credits. Its a twist for the sake of a twist that doesnt seem to add anything.
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
Gun Animal
Member
Spainkiller, you're really killin it lately. We really need a 'Spainkiller explains to Metal Gear detractors why they ain't shit' thread someday.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Which makes you wonder why any of this body double nonsense happened in the first place. It carries no consequence other than retroactively changing or lessening the meaning of future events. And it changes said events in the most arbitrary, meaningless ways (oh dude you killed x instead of y but x had all the characteristics of y!)
Some people mention it parallels MGS2, which is a nice sentiment. But if that's what they were going for then this is actually a huge undermining of MGS2. If the Patriots already had data on how they could turn a soldier into a Snake through manipulation, why would they need to carry out a similar exercise in 2009? We know the AIs were already active by that point, and even if they weren't kicked into full "control society mode" gear by 1984, in the future they surely had access to the knowledge of the Venom body double, much less how their own operative Big Boss was not actually betraying Snake yet in 1995.
Some people mention it illustrates the idea of Big Boss as a legend, and that the series is replete with examples of legends not living up to the name. But if anything, MGSV contradicts future themes in the series by INSISTING that the legend is the MOST important component for a soldier. You could write this off as Zero's doing, turning Big Boss into an exaggerated myth for his own interests, but Phantom Pain shows BIG BOSS, OCELOT, MILLER, AND EVA WERE ALL IN ON IT TOO DESPITE THEIR OPPOSITION TO ZERO. And considering Venom is apparently building Outer Heaven as Big Boss, never trying to get new facial surgery, he is also on board. Throws a fit, punches a mirror, and continues to be Big Boss for a decade. It's like if Raiden ended MGS2 by insisting "naw, I'm not gonna find out who the real me is and find my own identity. I will continue to be a proxy soldier."
I don't think MGSV's ruins anything. Nothing so dramatic as that. But it also seems really unnecessary. What was accomplished by having Big Boss be played by a double? Zero's justification is to protect Snake. But that's such a writer's way of simply circumventing an actual justifiable reason since we know Big Boss lives anyway. Same with the throwaway line about "Big Boss went onto create Zanzibar in secret while Venom was busy with XYZ". As if you couldn't just write that Big Boss established Zanzibar after Outer Heaven, which was the established story in this franchise for 25 years, since MG2's release. What was Venom even for?
The immature Solid Snake fanboy in me is happy to see Big Boss fans end up playing a game where they don't even play as Big Boss lol, but the more objective me is wondering why this game even exists. It really appears to be M. Night Shyamalan TWEEEEEST.
robotoboy20
Banned
I'm going to kill Huey.
Just to join in, there are two things I expect from a Metal Gear Solid game:
1. Stealth action.
2. A deep, existential story.
That's it.
Half the fun for me when playing a MGS is finding out how Kojima how implemented these elements, even if it doesn't turn out to be as successful I hoped ;-)
1. Stealth action.
2. A deep, existential story.
That's it.
Half the fun for me when playing a MGS is finding out how Kojima how implemented these elements, even if it doesn't turn out to be as successful I hoped ;-)
"MGSV: The missing link that retcons the saga".
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
Much appreciated, bud.
Because turning someone into a super soldier through memetics is a hell of a lot easier than through plastic surgery, implemented memories and a constant group of people who are in on the joke?
It's very easy to see why The Patriots would try to research multiple ways of attaining their goals, especially since they're AIs and will always look for the most optimal way.
BiGBoSSMk23
A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
So does anyone know what became of the head transplant doctor?
It seems to fit as Medic basically got a head transplant lol...
Also completely far fetched but I think that Kojimas name being removed from the boxart could have been his own intention.
After all, one of the themes of the game is legends taking everyone's credit. Maybe this is his way of acknowledging he's not the "Big Boss" of Japanese video games.
Idk
It seems to fit as Medic basically got a head transplant lol...
Also completely far fetched but I think that Kojimas name being removed from the boxart could have been his own intention.
After all, one of the themes of the game is legends taking everyone's credit. Maybe this is his way of acknowledging he's not the "Big Boss" of Japanese video games.
Idk
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
Can't find the link, but the theory has been debunked completely. Just a lot of coincidences + hype + wishful thinking.
RyanardoDaVinci
Member
Just a coincidence.
Yep, I got that one wrong thanks to Kojima. Anyway my point still stands minus the outer heaven incident.
This story is fucking everything up in terms of understanding events FFS. So the only time Snake met BB was Zanzibar where he told him he was his father? I actually just remembered that Snake talks about this in MGS1.
He doesn't mention to Naomi that he defeated BB at Outer Heaven, he only mentions Zanzibar land so in terms of Venom Snake is the ruler of OH it could be forced into the timeline and canon.
Spainkiller
the man who sold the world
Remember: they have different stages of "armor". There's a way to remove their "rock armor", but I can't recall how exactly; it's been weeks since I last played it. Experiment a bit. And don't forget you can call in ammo drops if you're out of rockets.
Self_Destructive
Member
The REAL nice touch imo is when VS smashes the mirror. When the mirror breaks and pieces of the mirror fall, you see the reflection of VS but you also see Big Boss was behind it. He's not longer just a reflection.. the illusion has been broken, and he sees himself as the real Big Boss.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
For yoyr fears-
Theres plenty of VO by keifer
It answers how VS gets to mg1
Its touched on through the tapes moreso than cutscenes
And that actually isnt the story.
Its a twist because as it is right now, having BB die in MG1 and come then in a contrived manner be the final boss in MG2 again. Suddenly we can say "oh it was a body double!"
Now see, that in itself would be a cop out. But its not. Because the idea of having someone try to mimic something else is an ongoing theme in the MGS series. Decoy Octopus, Raiden following Snakes footsteps in a simulated live excercise, Liquid and Solidus keep trying to achieve being Big Boss("there can only be one snake, and one big boss!"), Ocelot getting psychotherapy to mimic Liquid...
To call it a twist for the sake of being a twist is well, not giving it credit. People imitating another has always been one of the overarching themes of the series. Its in every single game except for MGS3, and that is chronologically the progenitor of the series. I think that its amazing its been able to wrap around and provide something that fits to this series.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
SSS wasn't really a Solid Snake Simulator though no? That was a front.
As for this ending, I think a lot of it is Kojima saying that whoever is going to carry on from there has all of the past to work from, so even if Kojima is gone MGS lives on basically.
Presumably, the real Big Boss is leading Foxhound and is the one that sends Snake on his mission to take out Venom, but anyway most of that from there onward becomes a bit silly, the stuff with Miller and Ocelot and how the sons are fated to fight each other, all that crap, it's just too much.
Since I'm still sure we'll play MG1/MG2 "updated" MSX versions in TPP post release, I wonder if we'll still just play the old games with new dialogue and maybe slight differences, or if we just end up playing the last fight. When Venom listens to the tape, it sounds like there's a war outside for some reason, so if he's in Outer Heaven at that point it might be at the end of MG1 itself. In that case, I would just expect us to replay the last fight with SS with actual TPP graphics. Otherwise, I think it's the full MSX game.
Again, those orange lights, they mean something. It's no coincidence they keep showing up when the camera looks at technology.
As for this ending, I think a lot of it is Kojima saying that whoever is going to carry on from there has all of the past to work from, so even if Kojima is gone MGS lives on basically.
Presumably, the real Big Boss is leading Foxhound and is the one that sends Snake on his mission to take out Venom, but anyway most of that from there onward becomes a bit silly, the stuff with Miller and Ocelot and how the sons are fated to fight each other, all that crap, it's just too much.
Since I'm still sure we'll play MG1/MG2 "updated" MSX versions in TPP post release, I wonder if we'll still just play the old games with new dialogue and maybe slight differences, or if we just end up playing the last fight. When Venom listens to the tape, it sounds like there's a war outside for some reason, so if he's in Outer Heaven at that point it might be at the end of MG1 itself. In that case, I would just expect us to replay the last fight with SS with actual TPP graphics. Otherwise, I think it's the full MSX game.
Again, those orange lights, they mean something. It's no coincidence they keep showing up when the camera looks at technology.
Gun Animal
Member
Actually, wasn't "EVA" only pretending to be EVA? As in, there was a real NSA defector named EVA, and it wasn't her.
- Status
Similar threads
- Poll