The goal is irrelevant, it's the outcome that matters because this is fictional account that was planned and plotted. Its not like these are real people with good intentions and flawed methodology.
Nintendo Removes Controversial Fire Emblem Fates Conversation
- Thread starter Tom Nook Sawyer
- Start date
The goal is irrelevant, it's the outcome that matters because this is fictional account that was planned and plotted. Its not like these are real people with good intentions and flawed methodology.
Steve Youngblood
Member
OK, so I just watched the entirety of that gaijin hunter video that's supposed to debunk this whole thing and establish that it's all just a mistranslation and I still don't understand how it's being misrepresented.
I want to first start off here by noting that I don't think the original story intends anything malicious, but is instead just absurdly stupid. So I'm not really up in arms about anything here. With that out of the way, one thing I'm seeing is people saying "oh, but she's not really a lesbian despite getting weak-kneed around cute girls." And I just... I just don't understand it. I get that this insanely silly conversation is with her mother, but when I hear this interpretation as described by the person trying to debunk that there's anything nefarious at play:
Soleil: Watching you move as your washing the clothing, like you're, like seriously super cute.
Soleil's Mom: Umm... so what are you looking at me... you're weird.
Soleil: Hey, I can't help it, I get aroused. Like I see cute girls and it just gets me going.
Again, this is the interpretation of the person arguing that this is all innocent. Later, he affirms the interpretation that she only falls in love with the female version of the character under the spell. I do not understand the argument that this character is presented as not really being a lesbian. And I'm not saying it to be progressive or anything here. I just don't understand it.
I spent 30 minutes watching a video that was supposed to explain all of this and I basically feel like it mostly agrees with the very interpretation it's trying to debunk. The only thing it successfully argues in my book is that it probably does play out more innocently than it seems when taken out of the context of playing the actual game. But the things that people are getting riled up about do seem to be there.
I want to first start off here by noting that I don't think the original story intends anything malicious, but is instead just absurdly stupid. So I'm not really up in arms about anything here. With that out of the way, one thing I'm seeing is people saying "oh, but she's not really a lesbian despite getting weak-kneed around cute girls." And I just... I just don't understand it. I get that this insanely silly conversation is with her mother, but when I hear this interpretation as described by the person trying to debunk that there's anything nefarious at play:
Soleil: Watching you move as your washing the clothing, like you're, like seriously super cute.
Soleil's Mom: Umm... so what are you looking at me... you're weird.
Soleil: Hey, I can't help it, I get aroused. Like I see cute girls and it just gets me going.
Again, this is the interpretation of the person arguing that this is all innocent. Later, he affirms the interpretation that she only falls in love with the female version of the character under the spell. I do not understand the argument that this character is presented as not really being a lesbian. And I'm not saying it to be progressive or anything here. I just don't understand it.
I spent 30 minutes watching a video that was supposed to explain all of this and I basically feel like it mostly agrees with the very interpretation it's trying to debunk. The only thing it successfully argues in my book is that it probably does play out more innocently than it seems when taken out of the context of playing the actual game. But the things that people are getting riled up about do seem to be there.
it's a hallucinogenic powder put in someone's drink without their knowledge or consent by someone who isn't a doctor
the nearest real-world analog isn't medicine or therapy
poet at play
Banned
Just like Nintendo, you're evaluating it for me.
I think its even more fascinating that people keep making up stuff and twisting what actually happens. The OP needs to be edited with this video so people can actually see what happens instead of going by wonky translations and click bait articles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iVFPheRegw
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Where did he imply it was the writer's explicit goal?
Concepts like that are often internalized and reinforced subconsciously. I seriously doubt the writer sat in front of his keyboard thinking "fuck yeah, I'll reference date rape and reinforce heteronormativity! That's a great idea!"
Please refer to Steve Youngbloods post above.
Localization =/= censorship but this is GAF so you're not going to listen and will continue spouting that "censoring" crap for as long as mankind exists.
Respect for people's right to choose. Again it is against the LAW for a doctor to treat you if you tell them you don't want it no matter how good it would be for you.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
If he did not then I apologize. It just came off that way.
BibiMaghoo
Member
Isn't it fair for Nintendo to do because IT'S THEIR PRODUCT? I mean that's what was being done in the first place when it was written anyway.
sensui-tomo
Member
I think we need a thread describing the two because people dont get the differences .
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
No problem. It's just a misconception that comes back often in these type of threads. When something problematic is pointed out, some people think we're accusing the creators of having fully-conscious malicious intents, but that's not the case.
vainglorious
Member
I'm really not understanding the "she's not actually a lesbian" argument either. I mean, I just got hit with this reply -
Lalalandia
Member
Completely agree that video is incomprehensible, he can't seem to divorce the simple straight narrative of what the game says from his understanding of it. On it's face this is a lesbian character that is given a drink that leads her to fall in love with a male character she perceives as female, on it wearing off she is still in love with the male character and ceases to be attracted to women.
Just being able to read Japanese or being based in Japan and being familiar with it's cultural mores does not invalidate a straight reading of the text. It simply means you like the game and are better placed to make excuses for it but that doesn't make you right. Removing this doesn't seem to break the game or make it more or less difficult in any way so why not take it out? I haven't read any convincing arguments here thus far but hey the thread is young, I'm guessing at least 30 pages given that we're at a nexus of Nintendo, culture and 'censorship' here.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
To address this and another post, the main reason why "she's not really a lesbian" is thrown around is because she cannot ultimately pursue a romantic relationship with female characters, Female Corrin included. So her trait of flirting with girls only amounts to a character quirk.
As much as I hate using the word anime as a noun, she is definitely a character that is "anime".
I'm surprised so many people care considering it's only the Male MC x Soleil support that's getting edited. Considering how many other characters there are to romance as both MCs, the likelihood of people actually seeing this is very slim. She's 1 of like 40 romancable characters.
R_thanatos
Member
The event starts by soleil telling the hero that she has a weakness that she wishes to be corrected.
And they spend 2 or 3 events training for her to overcome her weakness.
So yeah i think that this is blow out of proportion and that the important thing isn't the magical powder. but everything aside from that. The magical powder is so insignificant that i think that judging the scenes need every other aspect included.
She wishes to be cured , it actually prevent her from reaching her current goals.There is no doubt about this going by the dialogue in the event scenes.
Like, this weird purity boner people have when it comes to stuff like this is so odd. If it really matters more to you that you're getting the original, unaltered product rather than just getting a good product, then just learn Japanese already because you're never going to have that with a localization in the first place!
sensui-tomo
Member
The game is stupid and she can only romance males. People are saying she isnt a lesbian (even if she like girls in game) because of the fact the game only allows her to get with other dudes.
TheShampion
Member
Hearing about this reminds me why people are so annoyed with the current direction of Fire Emblem. "Anime" has just become a codeword for what it actually is, which is lack of gravitas in the character development. Being tricked into falling in love with the sex you aren't attracted to due to a spell is an unforgivable betrayal, but it comes off as fine because the context of real human emotion isn't there.
It is why people like me ended up loving stuff like Taro Yoko's Nier and Drakengard because it takes anime tropes like "falling in love with your big brother" and turns it on its head by portraying just how heavy and dark that can really be.
It is why people like me ended up loving stuff like Taro Yoko's Nier and Drakengard because it takes anime tropes like "falling in love with your big brother" and turns it on its head by portraying just how heavy and dark that can really be.
After seeing how the thread is moving, I had to go back and re-read this...
...because the first time I didn't really see the controversy. It seemed at first like they were just having some goofy fun, but I guess the underlying message is indeed pretty bad if you look at it that way.
Edit: Ooooh, the "vice-versa" part is confusing... I thought it meant that women would see HER as a man... that's what I would assume the "vice-versa" to be...
She sees women as men... vice-versa: women see her as a man (reads correctly to me)
But it is actually
She sees women as men... vice-versa: she sees men as women (doesn't read correctly to me)
...because the first time I didn't really see the controversy. It seemed at first like they were just having some goofy fun, but I guess the underlying message is indeed pretty bad if you look at it that way.
Edit: Ooooh, the "vice-versa" part is confusing... I thought it meant that women would see HER as a man... that's what I would assume the "vice-versa" to be...
She sees women as men... vice-versa: women see her as a man (reads correctly to me)
But it is actually
She sees women as men... vice-versa: she sees men as women (doesn't read correctly to me)
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Okay, listen, I get why this was changed as it was rather extreme/tasteless of IS but...using localisation as a euphemism here is hilarious. This is technically censorship within the localisation, and no, you can't have an opinion on that. Localisation can mean a lot of things while censorship is specific. This is both, sure, but it's explicitly censorship.
Yeah I'm aware of all of that and it is just as gross an aspect of the scene as the powder thing is. Really moreso.
and there are people in the real world who have voluntarily undergone conversion therapy, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't work and causes deep psychological harm to its victims
portraying a character like this is really shitty and disrespectful
vainglorious
Member
Just because the game mechanics do not allow a clearly lesbian character to pursue a homosexual relationship and forces her into a hetero-normative relationship does not mean she's "ultimately a straight character".
meltingparappa
Member
Assigning an arbitrary kinsey scale number to an individual is a ridiculous thing to impose on an actual human being, much less a fictional character.
Basically, why adamantly insist on the sexuality of a character is different than what the fiction states and portrays? Especially with only second hand, out of context poorly translated snippets?
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Soleil seems like she's obviously suppose to be bi but not for some reason.
Yeah, I just got carried away.
sensui-tomo
Member
Boy you better not look up localizations in the past with your sense of the term, By this logic LOADS OF SHIT HAS BEEN CENSORED. FF/Persona/Tales of / drakengard(Especially this) and other games.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
So localization is inherently censorship according to you? And editing your own creation is censorship too? I don't want to alert you but there's "censorship" absolutely everywhere then!
But what was she trying to be cured of?
A. Her love for women?
.B Or just her inability to deal with cute/attractive girls in general?
Because I'm seeing a lot of people talk like it's A, but the support convos she has seems more towards B.
Solbringer
Member
In defense of the creators here, the stuff they wrote can be adequately explained by Hanlon's Razor. It usually is not conscious maliciousness.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
LegionAgent
Member
The whole "potion" that makes her like men reminds of that one scene from The Simpsons where Smithers takes shots to be straight
Steve Youngblood
Member
OK. But how they decided to program her romantic relationships is extraordinarily at odds with how the character is presented. Admittedly, I won't be able to play the game until next month, so I'm at the mercy of fan translations and the like. I can't form my own direct opinion. But I did go out of my way to watch a 30 minute video that was supposed to make this all clear and it ultimately seems like she's presented as a lesbian character, or at the very least bisexual. Them ultimately not allowing romance options with other women doesn't really debunk that.
sensui-tomo
Member
Game mechanics dont allow her to love women, only dudes. IE this should have been patched to fit with story .
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Except... it does. And it's part of why I'm frustrated with this particular character.
Females flirting with girls isn't exactly something that was never done before. What you have here is a character that is ultimately a shit example of trying to appeal to a same sex crowd.
And again, the only time this "drug" thing happen is with Male Corrin, but not her other male supports. Explain that.
It's honestly why I'm not a fan of her character, all because of this character set up.
Yeah, honestly, it's the portrayal of Soleil's attraction to women as a weakness or some kind of mental defect that is the real gross part, not the magic powder thing. Not that that isn't problematic, but it wouldn't even have the same implication if the context around it was different.
The intent is B... but too many people only see A and raged about it, so they are changing it.
Honestly, if presented right, it sounds like she fell in love with the Protagonist as a person, regardless of sex... which is a nice message as well, IMO. I'm sure that is what they were going for in the end... but nope, RAGE
It's a terribly written and silly subplot, but I guess the other male romances can answer whether or not she is a lesbian or just "has a weakness with cute girls".
Consent is usually explicitely seeked out when administrating medications. There are only rare exceptional cases (life or death, public health, danger to self or others, for example) where a doctor or a judge can veto a patient's consent to treatment.
Having dating problems is not such an exceptional case. Consent is actually not hard at all to obtain in this case (if the MC actually has good intentions and is able to articulate his argument). And yet, consent was not even seeked. Why?
but isn't the end result that she converts from liking girls to liking guys?
And that's how a lot of people in Japan see actual lesbianism: as a "character quirk" that can and should be overcome / fixed.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
I think it's supposed be from only liking girls to also liking guys but the writing fails in explaining that.
or maybe they were trying for B and didn't succeed because the writing was bad and the entire premise was stupid to begin with