Yep. If you want translations that's as close as possible or keeping the context of the original work no matter how it might be seen in the states, it seems like XSEED is more your company than Nintendo. Nintendo has always been about making sure their games are seen as inoffensive and not seen as problematic as possible. If this was 10-15 years ago, they'd probably be getting rid of the implications of a character being interested in the same sex. (I actually think that happened in a pokemon game in the last 5 years?)
Nintendo Removes Controversial Fire Emblem Fates Conversation
- Thread starter Tom Nook Sawyer
- Start date
Yep. If you want translations that's as close as possible or keeping the context of the original work no matter how it might be seen in the states, it seems like XSEED is more your company than Nintendo. Nintendo has always been about making sure their games are seen as inoffensive and not seen as problematic as possible. If this was 10-15 years ago, they'd probably be getting rid of the implications of a character being interested in the same sex. (I actually think that happened in a pokemon game in the last 5 years?)
sensui-tomo
Member
How in the world does the situation in Fates resemble date-rape in any way? The only remote connection is a spiked drink. That's all and it does in no way warrant a comparison to date rape.
There's no implication that she's over her problem at least not in the video. In the following support conversation she even says that it didn't work. And she never says that she doesn't like men. We hear her go on about cute girls and her distaste for her male comrades but she never says that she doesn't find men attractive.
veloxStrix
Banned
Censorship is acceptable or not acceptable based on the context it is applied in. I think we can all agree that context matters in every situation, so this should be obvious and inarguable. While there is no "cover all" rule for when something can or can't be censored, there are some things that cannot be censored and remain the same thing.
A piece of art cannot remain the same piece if it is censored. Regardless of how it is censored, the initial purpose of the art has been changed completely.
A commodity, on the other hand, can be censored without harming it. Ultimately, the goal of the commodity is not to push any particular viewpoint or to have any particular meaning - the commodity's only purpose is to make money.
Censoring a commodity can help it towards it's goal, but censoring an artwork can never help it. Generally. I'm sure I could think up exceptions. But, ultimately, games are commodities. The publisher/developer relationship doesn't allow for art in any real sense and I think this is where people get lost. All your games are censored, in some way. It's just easier to notice with localization.
Lalalandia
Member
No you're being deliberately obtuse at this point. For it to be censorship you have to identify
1) Who is censoring the game?
a) If your answer is Nintendo did not releasing the actual Mario 2 and substituting an ersatz 'Doki Doki Panic' constitute censorship
2) How does this differ from cutting 20 minutes of wacky chinese doctor antics from the non-Chinese releases of Iron Man 3?
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Even then, no one got outraged when Lucina lost an S rank support.
I don't even get the censorship whining in this case. Things always change in Localizations, especially text dialogue. If you're complaining about dialogue changes as censorship, why do you even buy Localizations in the first place?
If you're not casting judgment on the people supporting this change, then why are you making comments ABOUT THEM in the first place? You're being disingenuous.
Whoa what happened there?
Comfort Jones
Banned
Which support was this?
Battlechili
Banned
I can't agree with this. I feel it assumes too much on the creators parts (and in my personal opinion, is also a tad cynical with regards to companies and their interest in money vs creating new content) and lumps in all the different parts of Nintendo as one company, when company branches are more complicated than that and have each region personally in their mind above all else. Its NoA's job to oversee North America, for instance, which is why I think its unfair to just call all of them "Nintendo" as if they all have the same views and ideas in mind with regards to their work. I don't really think whether the change makes the scene better or worse is really important with regards to determining whether it was okay to change. But I know you disagree very strongly here, so I won't press.
Coffee Dog
Banned
I've said it multiple times in this thread, but there are degrees to localization. It's not so simple as looking at a product as localized/not localized.
Take the Persona series for example. This series is (in)famous for it's strict translation, keeping in honorifics and native english speakers calling each other senpai and choking out awkwardness like JOON PAY KUN.
However, most fans would prefer this over the heavily localized original, which for some odd reason insisted that the game was set in america and hilariously put one of the party members in blackface.
While the second option takes many liberties with the original text in order to accommodate an american perspective, you'd hardly find any fans that would prefer it to a more strict translation.
Chet Rippo
Member
More like it would never see a release in the west at all.
WhateverItTakes
Banned
I mean you're making a joke, but I actually kind of agree with you. Is it really censorship when you're altering a product for a new market? Like, McDonald's menus are different in different markets, but they aren't holding food back from areas, they're selling what they think would sell best in the area, and in this case, Nintendo are just sidestepping a conversation that could potentially earn them bad press or just make a person enjoy their game a little less.
If you want the 'full Japanese culture experience', fact is you've gotta learn Japanese and play the originals, or because some things are always bound to change.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I went back to transcript more from the video:
Soleil: There's no other person, no other guy that makes me feel like this. Ever since that day where I saw you as a girl, I really fell for you.
MC: So, what? Does that mean that you fell in love with just the girl me?
Soleil: Uh huh.
MC: Uh huh? Oh come on.
Soleil: Oh don't worry. I like you even if you look like a male. I love you. When I had that magic powder, I saw a bunch of other people that looked like girls, but none of them got me excited or got my heart racing like you did. Heck, my heart is beating right now. Touch my chest and see.
MC: No no no no.
Soleil: Why?
MC: Come on, even if we're going to be husband and wife, I can't just touch a girl for the hell of it.
(snip because I don't feel like transcribing irrelevant dialogue)
MC: Oh, and don't cheat on me with another guy... maybe I don't have to worry about that.
Maybe "tricked" isn't the right word, but nothing offered here as a better translation implies that she genuinely is attracted to men. Yes, she does say that Female MC doesn't really get her weak-kneed upon meeting, but she also admits that she only fell in love with him after the potion. And there are so many awkward cues in there that don't really present her as legitimately straight. The first line is clarified from "no other person" to "no other guy" that makes her feel that way. She says that she like him even if he looks like a male with the implication that looking like a male is ordinarily a problem, just not for him now. And then there's finally the joke about how he guesses he doesn't have to worry about her cheating on him with another man because she actually likes girls.
I just don't understand what the non-sexual interpretation is for her "cute girl" issue. What else is it? She says that she gets weak in the knees and aroused... cute girls get her going. And sorry for ignoring the clarification about the battle, but it's still describe as a problem she wants to get over. After a battle she literally fell over because a cute girl from the village came up to her. It sounds to me like she's being describe as a lesbian with a comically high libido. What's the alternative explanation to explain her reaction to cute girls that would imply she's not actually a lesbian?
Obviously if NoA was in charge, a lot of current material wouldn't be produced. That said, I also think it's wrong to say that the writing in these games isn't a labor of love or at least not something the writers enjoyed unless we know otherwise just because they're getting paid for it. Are we supposed to see every painting and statue in history that was paid for as not art because the person got paid to do it?
Coffee Dog
Banned
poet at play
Banned
Haha, definition 2 doesn't suit your argument, therefore it's 'irrelevant' ?
You've just revealed that you don't know how to use a dictionary.
(And you realise that an 'official' has a wider implication than a 'government official', right ?)
You'd better forward that to Oxford before they publish the third edition.
This is said character.
LITTLE LORD FAUNTLEROY
poet at play
Banned
Huh ? Where is this even coming from ? Please quote me so that I may understand what you're referring to.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Because obviously she does not want to have sex with her own mother. Nintendo is not going to release a video game in japan where a person innocently wants to have sex with their own mother. That is still very taboo in japan.
So, if she does not have a sexual interest in her own mother, and she expresses the same traits towards her mother that she does in other women, it stands to reason that she does not have a sexual interest in those other women.
GinoFelino
Member
Since it took some of you nearly twenty pages, let me help you out.
The correct response to this is 'Wow, that was in the game? How silly. Good call to change that in localisation'.
Most if not all other possible responses are Gamergate-level embarrassments to gaming.
The correct response to this is 'Wow, that was in the game? How silly. Good call to change that in localisation'.
Most if not all other possible responses are Gamergate-level embarrassments to gaming.
This is said character.
There are a lot of issues at work here
Steve Youngblood
Member
I think watching it play out makes it seem less like date-rape, which I already admitted. It's just the broad strokes of how it plays out are uncomfortable. Like if you look back and summarize what happens, it's pretty awkward and it's not surprising that some see parallels to date rape drugging situations.
1.) Character is drugged.
2.) Character later falls in love with character that drugged her.
Yes, that may oversimplify how the story plays out, but it's still uncomfortable when one frames it that way.
No, but then MK was not localized to resonate more with a different audience in a different region. And it was Nintendo, a platform holder, telling a third party to edit their game. If for some reason the developers wanted to make MK less violent in another region, then it'd be a better analogy.
veloxStrix
Banned
It's pretty hard for me to believe this interpretation, considering she fell in love with him as a woman and still loves him now as a man. That simply reads to me as loving a personality regardless of gender. It would be different if the process of finding out he's a man led to her changing her gender preferences, which she doesn't.
So long as we're reading too much into this, I'd advocate that such a story has a stronger message of transgender acceptance than gay intolerance or proposing conversion. We are literally talking about a story where in the eyes of one person another has changed genders, but she still loves him anyway.
This is so hilariously not true
Don't be coy and act like careful word selection means you aren't talking shit about people.
superseohyun
Member
of course . In fact, you can probably remove 90% of all the support conversation this game would still be fine.
welcome to gaming!
Steve Youngblood
Member
Again, we're just using one plot point as the means to debunk other presentations of the trait. OK, so maybe she doesn't want to actually have sex with her mother. But does that automatically mean that she isn't sexually attracted to her? Further, even if you assume that she's not, you're not presenting an alternative explanation for what's causing her to get weak in the knees despite how that is being presented. So, sure, using some sort of lawyer semantics to see "if she wouldn't have sex with her mom, she clearly isn't really a lesbian," what is she?
It's still Nintendo localizing a Nintendo game. It's not IntSys' job to localize games, so I guess literally all of their output has been censored to some degree?
I know they're not technically a Nintendo first party studio, but that's some pretty extreme nitpicking going on there, especially over an IP that Intelligent Systems does not own.
veloxStrix
Banned
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Any game that has a publisher has been censored, whether you can see it or not.
IntSys makes the game, Nintendo SPD oversees the game during creation, and then NoA localizes said game to better sell in America. I'm not sure what exact part of that is nitpicking. How does IP affect the original intent of the creator?
Edit: I used "IP" one too many times.
This is said character.
I figured it would be the crossdressing character. Is he at least handled decently?
poet at play
Banned
This is not a case of content being altered for artistic reasons.
This is a case of content being supressed / censored for being considered sensitive, inconvenient and politically incorrect.
Be careful not to confuse the two.
We should never ever expect better from video games. Got it.
And that's why I don't care, I guess. It's the reality of different cultures and languages existing.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Yes it was. It was localized to resonate with the Super Nintendo audience.
But, even then, editing out crosses, nudity, and religious references. Here is a list of them. Also wrong to refer to as censorship? Because those kinds of changes have been referred to as "censorship" by a lot of people, for a long time. To the point that even that wikipedia article calls them such!
Refusal to engage those who address these changes as such shows either a lack of understanding of the practical function of the english language, or a lack of willingness to have a conversation. I'm just wondering where you and the other posters who are making driveby localization/censorship jokes fall on that.
Crash Station
Member
I think the reverse would be straight guys hitting on men, which is pretty damn common these days, especially in college and the army.
sensui-tomo
Member
not sure but "Foleo is the most popular male child and 11th over all in the official character popularity poll held on the game's official site. " if that means anything the character could be good.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Who's making the distinction of what's what?
Lalalandia
Member
I note you've dodged my later questions so let's go again
Who is censoring Nintendo?
Is this the same as removing 20 minutes of Iron Man 3 for non-Chinese audiences?
Censorship has become a much abused word meaning variously 'I had to shut up or suffer dire personal consequences such as job loss / prison /execution' or 'Reddit/Twitter kicked me off for doxxing people'. We devalue people who are genuinely fighting censorship in places where there are actual consequences for saying the wrong thing by conflating 'I don't like this' with 'You cannot say this'.
Nintendo were perfectly free to publish this game unaltered in Japanese or unaltered in English, while going through localisation they took a look at this scene and thought 'Nah this doesn't work' and cut it. Given that Nintendo also chose to remove gay relationships from Tomodachi Life despite vociferous complaints by folks who wanted them left in I don't think we can say that they particularly care about that audience.
Censorship != Criticsim
My point is that even Nintendo of Japan surely makes Intelligent Systems change things about their games all the time. We just don't hear about it.
Which as I said is a crappy enough trope when used to have two girls or two boys fall in love, its way, way worse when an apparent gay or lesbian is "changed" to be straight because of it.
Thats really, really pushing things as interpretations go
That was still a platform holder telling Midway / Acclaim to alter their game. It's pretty different in this situation, since Nintendo owns Fire Emblem and they can do whatever they want with their own products.Yes it was. It was localized to resonate with the Super Nintendo audience.
But, even then, editing out crosses, nudity, and religious references. Here is a list of them. Also wrong to refer to as censorship? Because those kinds of changes have been referred to as "censorship" by a lot of people, for a long time. To the point that even that wikipedia article calls them such!
Refusal to engage those who address these changes as such shows either a lack of understanding of the practical function of the english language, or a lack of willingness to have a conversation. I'm just wondering where you and the other posters who are making driveby localization/censorship jokes fall on that.
Steve Youngblood
Member
I'm not sure I understand why -- in the context of localizing the game for a different market -- this type of change can't be regarded as the former instead of the latter.
veloxStrix
Banned
I think this entire thread is evidence of why the change needed to be made.
We have arguments over the usage of drugs, the nature of sexuality, incest, and I'm sure there are more arguments being thrown around that I haven't noticed.
We have arguments over the usage of drugs, the nature of sexuality, incest, and I'm sure there are more arguments being thrown around that I haven't noticed.