I think it's time you took a break.
Nintendo Removes Controversial Fire Emblem Fates Conversation
- Thread starter Tom Nook Sawyer
- Start date
I think it's time you took a break.
Lalalandia
Member
Yup and editing is now self-censorship FFS. Self-censorship is a product of censorious laws that abuse deliberate vagueness to ensure nominally independent publishers tow the line. For example Thailand has a lése majesté law that bans 'insults' to the King without defining what that means allowing censors to ban content critical of the royal family or their hangers on without ever having to write 'Don't talk about what a wanker the Crown Prince is' down. That fear of random, arbitrary enforcement gets internalised and publishers simply shy away from anything that might be deemed an 'insult' by a courts system that is a tool of the government.
Self censorship is not looking at a bit of failed writing likely to attract attention for reasons that have nothing to do with the authors intent and going 'Nah'.
Hallucinogens are "silly anime nonsense" and that makes it okay. I will never understand anime culture.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Being gay is totally fine if you pretend your partner is the opposite sex?
Oh wow, I'd expect that from a Rep Presidential candidate... not a Nintendo game.
Good change for the West, but it should be patched for Japan too. Coz that shit is insulting for Japanese LGBTs.
Oh wow, I'd expect that from a Rep Presidential candidate... not a Nintendo game.
Good change for the West, but it should be patched for Japan too. Coz that shit is insulting for Japanese LGBTs.
poet at play
Banned
You can't quote me because it was an empty accusation. I've caught you out.
SenorArdilla
Member
If they manage to improve the scripts or even make it better than the original then great.
But it's still censorship.
But it's still censorship.
radios shipping overview
Member
I hope you're taking the good fight to every person performing editorial duties at a book publisher, website, or newspaper, and every producer working in film, music, or games, and telling them all about the works of censorial havoc they're wreaking upon the world.
Bumbletron
Member
As I stated earlier in the thread, through localization a product becomes its own entity. This is not, and was not ever going to be a 1:1 translation of Fates. Trust me, you wouldn't want that. It would be boring, you wouldn't understand the jokes, and a lot more than one conversation would be lost on you. To becry this is to lessen the meaning and intent of the word 'censorship'; this is editing done by the company that created the content.
Again, not all editing is censorship.
Also, when people start to gloat about how others 'squirm and twist around' it is a fairly obvious sign that their own side is losing momentum, and is an attempt to deflect attention via drawing attention to the other party.
Coffee Dog
Banned
WrenchNinja
Member
No one is stopping you from seeing the Japanese scene.
Wait, didn't you enter this thread by bringing up Yakuza, a franchise where the third game had something cut out of it for localization reasons? (i.e, we didn't want to bring Hostess clubs over to america, they wouldn't understand, etc.)
Just for the record, did you cry censorship for that back then as well?
vainglorious
Member
Several people in this thread have already described why this specific scenario is editorial discretion and not censorship.
But if this is your story and you plan on sticking to it, learn Japanese and start importing.
CenturionKei
Banned
Would have pissed us Yuri fans. Any type of Het stuff like Yuri girls being madr "straight" turns the Dynasty Scans forums ablaze.
but you can have children in fire emblem
Lalalandia
Member
Your first post to the thread was to call everyone who disagreed with you an apologist for censorship.
Which you then doubled down on
We're adults here we can read between the lines as well as the actual text, "I come to bury Caesar" indeed.
Blood Diamonds
Banned
I understand that in some circles this watering down of the word has been going on for decades but a wikipedia article's bland titling is a different beast than the cudgel that the word has been used for recently.
"Censorship", when used by certain actors on the internet, is a stand-in for authoritarian evil and they apply it as liberally as possible in order to froth up the rabble as much as possible. This, and the wikipedia article you reference, are both clearly not "censorship" in the traditional sense of the word, the sense that has connotations and baggage...
So no, we don't have to accept this misuse with a shrug of our collective shoulders as an enraged minority right within gaming cudgels publishers and developers down using needlessly inflammatory language.
This isn't censorship.
It would be great to see her other support conversations to see how she feels about her other possible husbands and men in general. She really is sending mixed signals by saying she only fell in love with fem Corrin while also saying fem Corrin is not her type. Maybe she's just being playful?
A joke is a joke, so it doesn't clarify anything either way.
All we hear is about is her going on tea dates, but does that mean she actually wants to be in a (physical) relationship? Is she being aroused in a sexual way? Does being aroused by someone/something mean you want to be in actual relationship with them/it?
You could compare her reaction to cute girls to the reaction people can have to animals/babies/things they are collecting/...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5jw3T3Jy70&feature=youtu.be&t=182
Well, duh. You can make anything look bad if you frame it a certain way.
A game about a murderous individual who has no regard for life or property; he kills animals and robs them of their home, trashes and steals from every place he visits, and has no qualms about sacrificing his pet to get ahead.
But doing that is completely dishonest and you know it. Just using the word ''drugged'' without any explanation of the effects or the situation it was used in will make people assume the worst.
I first drugged my kid when he was 5
he had a pretty bad cough. Thank god for antibiotics.
Also doesn't the fact that they fall in love further distance it from date rape. Last time I checked victims don't fall in love with their rapists.
Crash Station
Member
Both internal and external lying. It's just a really convoluted means of coping with self-esteem issues that the character she's a clone of had.
It's more like context matters and stuff that is completely reprehensible in real life isn't as bad in anime because it comes off as totally ridiculous.
There's a harem anime where the main dude's sister and mother constantly hit on him. One episode has him getting amnesia, and so the mother and sister pretend to be pregnant with his child so that he'll return their affection (he of course just ends up thinking of himself as a terrible human being for it). And it's hilarious!
SenorArdilla
Member
And all them got to the SE before I could.
i'm not trying to squirm and twist anything and it's annoying that you think so. i am presenting my beliefs sincerely and trying to explain them to the best of my ability.
not everyone uses a term in every context exactly the way it's presented in the merriam-webster dictionary, that's just a fact of language that you will have to get used to. for myself and others, this particular change is not censorship because it's not externally imposed on nintendo. some people are arguing that it would have to be a governmental body in order to be censorship, but i'd agree that any outside authority imposing the change would qualify (e.g. the ESRB).
i don't think you're a censor yourself, but your definition would seem to qualify you if critical influence is all it takes. asking for more things you like and less things you dislike is something everyone does, and if nintendo caves to that kind of pressure it's on them and not the people asking for things.
poet at play
Banned
Matt.. it IS self-censorship. By definition.
Nintendo didn't remove this particular subplot for any other reason than they felt it objectionable and politically incorrect for the West, and they didn't wish to deal with the repercussions.
You know this, I know this, we all know this.
However, feel free to construct an alternate scenario in which it was purely an artistic decision, but may Occam's Razor be with you.
What I was largely getting at is we see her body visibly react with blushing and fainting, which I know you know is a common anime trope both males and females express around someone they're especially attracted to, to females.
You said in an earlier post she's faking it all. So is she somehow making her body have these reactions?
Also, Coffee Dog, people are absolutely NOT using two different words for the same concept.
Some people are using needlessly inflammatory language in order to create controversy where normally there would be none which is VERY DIFFERENT from the innocent misuse of "censorship" to describe localization changes.
Some people are using needlessly inflammatory language in order to create controversy where normally there would be none which is VERY DIFFERENT from the innocent misuse of "censorship" to describe localization changes.
Bumbletron
Member
"they felt it objectionable and politically incorrect"
That's also the definition of editing. Yes, I do know this. But just because you can technically use a word like censorship in a case doesn't mean that the implications and meanings of the word remain consistent throughout its context.
The simplest answer is not, 'they changed it because of society', but 'because they wanted to'. It is a much more simple answer, no?
poet at play
Banned
I'm accused of being a censor for arguing against censorship, and you direct the snark at me. Haha. Cool
Coffee Dog
Banned
You made a good post, but I'm going to pull out this quote because it's the most relevant to my original point.
You have to accept that misuse, and that layman's definition, if you are interacting the layman. To jump on someone for a common misconception (as many have done in this thread) is a masturbatory semantics derail of the highest order, especially if you have the knowledge that it is a common misconception in the first place. It attacks the words of an argument, but not the substance of it.
This is bad for many, many reasons. Both as storytelling and just being offensive as h ell
No?
There is also a difference between things played for comedy and things that aren't.
And thinking that converting a lesbian to being straight is supposed to be funny is...
poet at play
Banned
Crash Station
Member
Censorship has baggage because of its extreme government-enforced instances. Just because this is a much lesser form that most wouldn't really care about and is arguably a better thing doesn't mean it isn't censorship.
And localization isn't always a stand-in for censorship. Here's how it should go:
Adapting content so it makes sense to a different culture (changing onigiri to sandwiches in Pokemon): localization
Removing or toning down content to prevent the possibility of offending (removal of boob slider in XBX): censorship
Sure. Reminds me of Girls Bravo (I think that's what it was).
Relaxed Muscle
Member
With this, the series reaches a new low, which was already pretty damn low.
At least Nintendo has some vision unlike some posters around here.
At least Nintendo has some vision unlike some posters around here.
Surely you guys can recognize the difference between censorship that requires action against it and "censorship" that is actually just editorial discretion though?
Both acts cannot necessitate the same response from the consumer because that handcuffs the editor, in much the same way that some claim outrage over inappropriate content handcuffs the artist.
Both acts cannot necessitate the same response from the consumer because that handcuffs the editor, in much the same way that some claim outrage over inappropriate content handcuffs the artist.
KirbYuuYuu
Member
Honestly it doesn't surprise me this is here. With or without awakening.
Bumbletron
Member
But at what point does the word and meaning of censorship cease to be an essential part of the substance of the argument? Censorship is a very specific word, used in very specific cases. It has meanings and arguments inherently within it that are introduced into an argument the second the word is brought up. If a word has become part of an argument, then its misuse should be argued against, as you are going against the arguments raised by the word.
"Censorship" is quickly becoming the new "Hitler" of the internet.
To promote the discussion however, instead of talking in circles for the next five pages, haha: What in particular makes this censorship instead of editing? Please give specific details, as this is a very specific line to cross and an argument that needs to be given more care in its consideration if you truly want to call it censorship.
Lalalandia
Member
I disagree the meaning of the word and emphasising the reliance on external state force are very important to the debate. As Marrec has pointed out the word 'censorship' is a rhetorical cudgel in online debates used as a pithy dismissal for any argument that suggests that changing a work can improve it.
Nintendo didn't intend to produce a strategy RPG with dating mechanics and the ability to drug a person expressing same gender attraction into falling for the opposite gender MC. When this scene alters the perception of the game and is not a key part of the story (several defences are based on the 'it's just a tiny scene' argument) why not dump it?
The act of censoring alters a thing as does the act of editing it and frankly the act of creating it (no text emerges pure and complete). If we don't emphasise the difference between these things it becomes impossible to dicuss them in a useful manner at all.
I'm against censorship in all walks of life, and I do act upon it, yes.
Cool snark !
So you haven't bought any media in years? As they've all asked themselves the question 'How will this be received?' at some point in the process.
I can think of two cases like that in Girls Bravo. One involves the main male character around other women because of trauma in his past. The other is the joke gag character who can't stand being around other men.
Neither is at all similar to what is being displayed in this game, unless you're talking about someone else.
Give War A Chance
Member
I don't really see this as controversial or awful or the like.
If it's there, cool.
If it's not, that's cool too.
It's a video game with fictional characters with fictional motivations and ideas. Some of these fictional characters might be dumb. Some of these fictional characters might do dumb things. Some of these fictional characters might do things that we (real, different people) wouldn't do.
Not a big deal.
If it's there, cool.
If it's not, that's cool too.
It's a video game with fictional characters with fictional motivations and ideas. Some of these fictional characters might be dumb. Some of these fictional characters might do dumb things. Some of these fictional characters might do things that we (real, different people) wouldn't do.
Not a big deal.
The Persona games have heavier localization than you seem to think they do. To take the name suffix example, honorifics are still there (because the target audience is weeaboos), but changed in such a way to be more familiar to a Western audience. "Family name-san" is frequently changed to "first name-kun" in Persona 4's translation. Honorifics and such aren't really left in, but changed to how it's audience would like to perceive them without going so far as to completely alienate people who wouldn't normally give such a gane a second glance.
Coffee Dog
Banned
The actual meaning of censorship is entirely irrelevant to the thread, because there is no outside agency enacting change. The changes being discussed are, factually, not censorship. That means that censorship is largely in this thread being used with its colloquial definition.
Crash Station
Member
The joke gag character that can't stand being around men. By the logic presented from the main character's affliction, it would imply the gag character is gay, but he's not.
Not saying it isn't stupid, just as it is in this case, but I don't think it's inherently offensive.
poet at play
Banned
Thanks for telling me what I would want.
Matt..
I was just accused of being a censor for arguing against censorship.
If I don't call people out on their gymnastics, I'm not doing myself or them any favours.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Honestly, trying as hard as I can to not be an overly sensitive SJW who is just looking for problems where they don't exist, the best interpretation that I can come up with is that the original scenario is so poorly written that the intent just doesn't come through properly. Given that, I feel like any attempt to completely rewrite Soleil's story, or at least tweak it, can only help the localization process and thus hardly constitutes some sort of problematic censorship.
Crash Station
Member
Sure, but we're talking definitions here. So largely a semantics debate that doesn't matter at all.
Same line of thought.
BumblebeeCody
Member
Because Europe is cool for gays.
M0nochromatic
Member
It's another example in Japan's track record of just not giving a damn about marginalized groups. LGBT is always written as a joke, a phase, or a mental problem that can be cured. A neat character quirk to spice up the story.
To top it off the scenario and dialogue presented here is on par with bargain bin harem garbage.
The funny thing is that the east itself (Nintendo) recognizes this in their acknowledgement and editing of the material. The west isn't censoring it. They already know it's gross to a western audience.
To top it off the scenario and dialogue presented here is on par with bargain bin harem garbage.
The funny thing is that the east itself (Nintendo) recognizes this in their acknowledgement and editing of the material. The west isn't censoring it. They already know it's gross to a western audience.