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[rockman zx]

I think it's ok to judge this game based on Cage's past work. Just like you judge a movie based on a director's past work.

I don't think is OK, to begin with he worked with other writers for this game unlike his previous games. You want to judge Detroit because you think Beyond had crappy writing, go ahead but I don't think is fair.

 

[Slaythe]

I think it's ok to judge this game based on Cage's past work. Just like you judge a movie based on a director's past work.

Omikron is one of the best game ever made.

Plus it's not like directors are consistent. Spielberg made Indiana jones IV.

I'd compare Cage to shyamalan. Let's hope Detroit can be his split.

 

[Heckler456]

I think it's ok to judge this game based on Cage's past work. Just like you judge a movie based on a director's past work.

You're supposed to judge something based on its own merits and flaws. It being a good idea to judge a movie based on a director's past work is also fallacious. Directors make come-backs, or put out duds all the time.

 

[Melchiah]

What? Why would it be subtle? We're talking about a dystopian society in which people have no issue basically buying and exploiting androids that look and act like their fellow human beings. It's obvious the de-humanization of such "products" is strong enough to warrant these "outrageous" (for us) ads. It helps the player identify with the protagonist who wants to break the cycle and stop this madness.

Exactly. Something like Bioshock Infinite had far less subtle messages.

 

[Fbh]

Cast seems pretty diverse to me.

Also, aside from cancelling it I don't really see how the dev could solve the issue you are having with their game.. Having this futuristic society where all slave robots are black would have been way more fucked up

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

You're supposed to judge something based on its own merits and flaws. It being a good idea to judge a movie based on a director's past work is also fallacious. Directors make come-backs, or put out duds all the time.

I do this with Michael Bay. The Last Knight is gonna be the Transformers movie everyone will love. I smell an Oscar.

Spoiler

In all seriousness no one does that. I'll look up reviews for a movie if it's good but before reviews come out I'll express my judgment of it based on a trailer and a director's past work.

 

[Kalamoj]

Then it would be more subtle, but that's not what they did here. I'm not talking about hypotheticals here, I'm referring to Quantic Dreams' actual marketing campaign. This picture was how they first introduced the basic concepts of the story to us, and it's anything but subtle. You may argue about the value of the message itself, but this is specifically about the delivery of the marketing towards us, the players. I expect more from a company that specializes on storytelling in games.

It's just a part of the exposition, the storytelling can be subtle regardless.

 

[Pepboy]

No is not fine, open a thread like this when the game is out and you can judge the content and the writing of game.

I think it's okay to offer concerns before the game is released.

The real issue is that the OP has done little or no research on even the basics of the gameplay trailer. EDIT: CORRECTION, I did not read the OP's original complaints closely enough. His comments seem to be specifically targeted toward the skin color of player characters. I'd still argue the side characters show signs of agency, at least as much as "hackable robots" are capable of agency. I'll keep my analysis up though because I still think the trailer is rather racially diverse, which is a nice sign.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayCsD43qjxI

It starts off at 0:08 with a black (or darker-skinned) robot singing.

The next series of faces we see at 0:30 is a poster. The poster has 3 faces, two light skinned and one darker skinned. (The middle may be vaguely asian? It's not clear). At 0:32 we see the same poster, cropped.

At 0:36 the next face we see is a black (or darker-skinned) android. You see the neck of another android in front but I'm honestly not sure whether that is light skin in shadow or dark skin.

At 0:38 we see a light skinned android walking with a shovel, with another light skinned robot in the back. At 0:39 we see a robot of unclear skin tone, but it appears to be the same android we just saw.

At 0:41 we see two new androids, both darker tone, shoveling.

At 0:43 we see two new androids, lighter skin in front and uncertain skin tone in the back.

At 0:45 we see a light skinned android (maybe an ad)

At 0:46 we see a darker skinned android.

At 0:53 we see a darker skinned character (seems a protagonist, or at least a playable character for a segment). I THINK this character is an android since it can infect the others but I guess its not 100% confirmed. At 0:55 we see a light skinned android.

So within the first minute we have seen 7 androids with darker skin tones, and 8 androids with lighter skin tones, and a handful of uncertain skin tones.

Later at 1:21 to 1:22, when they look inside the store, we see what seems to be 9 androids inside, 5 to 6 of which seem to have darker skin tones.

At 2:56 there is a shot of the room full of newly awakened androids. Of the 9 androids in the shot, 5 of them seem to have darker skin tones.

These side characters also seem to have some agency. At 5:12, it is a darker skinned android that gives the player character a gun. At 3:10, it is a darker skinned android that replies affirmatively "we're with you!" I'd also like to note that when they look inside the store, the darker skinned androids do not seem to be put "in the back shelf" or appear as "clearance models", but rather are front and center (with some standing on raised platforms above the lighter skinned models).

Personally, I'd be much more concerned if all the robots were black. That seems like it would have the potential to become a game about reliving or reenacting oppression for the sake of enjoyment. I think there was a Resident Evil game a few years back that had some concerns about this, if I recall.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Fair enough. With the subject matter being what it is I can imagine personal experiences could easily color one's opinion. Do you think it's mainly the setting of Detroit that's the biggest hang-up, or do you share the same gripes with other science fiction properties where androids and the like are used essentially as slaves? Either way I'll be interested to see how would feel after release and the story is known and whatnot.

I think it's a mix of both. In some of my earlier posts, I referenced a continuing annoyance I have with fiction in that many allegories for minorities are often made palatable for white audiences*. Often this means turning them into robots or fantasy races, who are often white, rainbow coloured, or at best multi-racial.

The important thing is that the allegory masks the much more targeted racism its based on, and in doing so, cleans it up and makes it less real. Racism because this fantasy concept rather than a brutal reality for many people. Its why I think a lot of people will tell you racism is horrible yet also immediately try to defend and justify the actions of the latest cop who shot an unarmed black person.

Secondly, I think the setting of Detroit was deliberately chosen to evoke the race riots of the past. However, what I've seen in the trailers feels like that evocation is cheap and empty; bringing up the racial history of the city to say, 'hey, racism is bad,' without untangling or commenting on the messy, ugly history of racism in any meaningful way.

*again, I realize that white people aren't the only group that can hold racist views, but I am talking in the context of Western popular entertainment, which is still overwhelmingly made by and for white folks

Hold up... you can't see why having black robots being enslaved in the game would have caused a shitstorm of biblical proportions?!?

I'm baffled by your position on this, honestly...

Yo, racism and prejudice are ugly fucking things! In my opinion, a story about oppression that doesn't make it's audience upset and uncomfortable has failed its core purpose.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not saying that all the robots should look black. I'm saying that the key characters whom we're meant to experience the story through are largely white, with people of colour seemingly largely relegated to side roles. It creates an unrealistic view of racism, especially in America, where the game is set, where the victims of racial oppression have historically been people of colour.

 

[Fitts]

It just comes off as tone deaf to me.

Welcome to the world of David Cage. Approach it as B-movie-esque schlock and it's some of the most entertaining comedy you'll find in all of gaming.

 

[pastrami]

I do this with Michael Bay. The Last Knight is gonna be the Transformers movie everyone will love. I smell an Oscar.

Spoiler

In all seriousness no one does that. I'll look up reviews for a movie if it's good but before reviews come out I'll express my judgment of it based on a trailer and a director's past work.

Ohhhh, I get it. Because that poster said that you should judge a work based on its own merit, that means we shouldn't judge a work based on its own merit.

 

[aadiboy]

I mean, doesn't X Men do this with mutants? And District 9 with aliens? The point of these types of stories is to get the viewer to empathize with the outcasts of society. Anyone could tell the actual subtext beneath what is shown.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Ohhhh, I get it. Because that poster said that you should judge a work based on its own merit, that means we shouldn't judge a work based on its own merit.

I'm saying keep watch of your expectations.

 

[Bulby]

Cast seems pretty diverse to me.

Also, aside from cancelling it I don't really see how the dev could solve the issue you are having with their game.. Having this futuristic society were all slave robots are black would have been way more fucked up

Exactly, I think you are overthinking this way to much OP

 

[Heckler456]

I do this with Michael Bay. The Last Knight is gonna be the Transformers movie everyone will love. I smell an Oscar.

Spoiler

In all seriousness no one does that. I'll look up reviews for a movie if it's good but before reviews come out I'll express my judgment of it based on a trailer and a director's past work.

I think we're stuck on semantics here. What you're talking about are preconceived notions, which is inherently something that is a very poor foundation to base any actual worthwhile discussion on.

In this specific case, from what we've seen in terms of racial representation, it seems to be doing pretty alright so far, even going as far as to hire a somewhat prominent activist into a leading role. You can assume that he'll end up fucking it all up, but you'd be in the wrong to do so.

 

[StrawberryJam]

If you expect David Cage to have subtlety then you're looking in the wrong place.

Yeah he's not exactly handled race well in the past either.

 

[PSFan]

I don't get this game at all. The story makes no sense. If humans did develop androids like that, they would definitely have some sort of failsafe built into them to prevent such an occurrence. Like some way to instantly deactivate them or something.

 

[MegaMelon]

David Cage is very clearly leaning on real struggles of slavery and oppression, but rather than telling the story through the lens of people who are oppressed and enslaved in 2017, we're getting a story with robots. Not only that, but all three playable characters are all white looking robots, two of which are male.

But why does he have to tell a story of oppression through those who are currently oppressed? He's free to use whoever and honestly it's probably a bit more creative as well from a storytelling point of view (and remember this is a videogame, an entertainment product first and foremost).

Also there was a black android in the latest trailer.

It just comes off as tone deaf to me. In a post gamergate, BLM and Occupy world, where some of the highest seats of American political power are held by self labeled misogynists and white nationalists, that Detroit believes it can only tell it's story of an oppressed class of people by putting us in the shoes of white guys.

This is a leap. What if the creator simply wants to tell a story using androids?

 

[travisbickle]

I think it's a mix of both. In some of my earlier posts, I referenced a continuing annoyance I have with fiction in that many allegories for minorities are often made palatable for white audiences*. Often this means turning them into robots or fantasy races, who are often white, rainbow coloured, or at best multi-racial.

These are robots with advanced AI.

Were people saying the movie "Her" was about slavery too?

The story is about whether a robot that believes in free will should be accommodated.

 

[Ambient80]

Secondary characters with dead eyes who follow their white savior. Token diversity if you ask me.

Oh my....

 

[billythemule]

I don't really see the problem here. The game is getting increasingly more interesting to me. I am a fan of these types of games.

 

[Highway]

People like you will find offense in everything

Its a game about robots

Find something else if you don't like it

 

[Famassu]

How does GAF manage to always do this?

Do what, exactly? The OP might be misinformed, but there's nothing wrong with bringing up concerns like these. There's something to learn even from threads like these with a flawed premise, since the lines between what's ok and what's not isn't always clear (so whatever creates discussion about important topics like race is good, since people can learn about it) and questioning things in the entertainment we consume isn't a bad thing. Even this thread has brought up SOME decent points, though not quite from the angle of the OP (or by the OP...)

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

Man, talk about reaching...



Also, did this delve into a david cage match thread yet?


stealth ediot: of course it did

 

[Dervius]

I think it's a mix of both. In some of my earlier posts, I referenced a continuing annoyance I have with fiction in that many allegories for minorities are often made palatable for white audiences*. Often this means turning them into robots or fantasy races, who are often white, rainbow coloured, or at best multi-racial.

The important thing is that the allegory masks the much more targeted racism its based on, and in doing so, cleans it up and makes it less real . Racism because this fantasy concept rather than a brutal reality for many people. Its why I think a lot of people will tell you racism is horrible yet also immediately try to defend and justify the actions of the latest cop who shot an unarmed black person.

Secondly, I think the setting of Detroit was deliberately chosen to evoke the race riots of the past. However, what I've seen in the trailers feels like that evocation is cheap and empty; bringing up the racial history of the city to say, 'hey, racism is bad,' without untangling or commenting on the messy, ugly history of racism in any meaningful way.

*again, I realize that white people aren't the only group that can hold racist views, but I am talking in the context of Western popular entertainment, which is still overwhelmingly made by and for white folks



Yo, racism and prejudice are ugly fucking things! In my opinion, a story about oppression that doesn't make it's audience upset and uncomfortable has failed its core purpose.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not saying that all the robots should look black. I'm saying that the key characters whom we're meant to experience the story through are largely white, with people of colour seemingly largely relegated to side roles. It creates an unrealistic view of racism, especially in America, where the game is set, where the victims of racial oppression have historically been people of colour.

OP I feel as though the bolded does a significant disservice to the artistry of many stories and forms of media which intend to tackle issues such as racism. The purpose of allegory such as this is not to make it more palatable, and in fact can actually work to further reinforce the underlying message.

The second bolded part seems to suggest that the only way you would be satisfied with what this is doing is if it were a straight up representation of Detroit's racially charged history, which tackled racism head on. This just isn't that game, it's totally different and I feel as though you may be projecting a wider issue you have on to this.

You can't really criticise a game for not being what you want, when what you seem to want is a totally different game.

It may well (and likely will) make some blunders with the sensitive issues its handling, and when it releases feel free to critique it to your hearts content. But your comments thus far seem to totally dismiss the purpose of allegory as diluting the issue, rather than communicating it differently, and criticise an unreleased game for not being a piece of media that outrightly talks about racism.

 

[Forearm Star]

Well alright.

Wonder if other games with all white casts bug op as well. Also how the heck did you miss all the other androids let alone the guy singing to kick the damn trailer off?

Don't mean to dog pile but cmon..

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

People like you will find offense in everything

Its a game about robots

Find something else if you don't like it

How about you find another thread if you don't like it.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

I bet OP is great fun at parties.

 

[zon]

Sounds like OP wants to be offended because the trailer made him feel uncomfortable...

Considering that white people enslaved other white people for a much longer period of time than they did africans, no it's not 'fucked'.

 

[dgrdsv]

Sounds like OP wants to be offended because the trailer made him feel uncomfortable...

Considering that white people enslaved other white people for a much longer period of time than they did africans, no it's not 'fucked'.

Yeah, there were plenty of white slaves in human history, even though they weren't called "slaves" all the time.

 

[Apt101]

To me it doesn't matter, because robots don't have ethnicities. They were built, not born. I imagine how they're designed, whether to appear like a white or black human being, means nothing to them.

Generally speaking, while the tale of slavery in the US is going to be the one that resonates with us the most, slavery and oppression has a far longer, more complex history that extends into today. Bonded labor is common throughout Asia - especially of children. This isn't asians bonded to whites, but asians oppressed by other asians. Many Filipinos are indentured servants in modern day Middle East. Many women from Russia and the old satellite states are also essentially sex slaves with little agency of their own.

What I'm saying is that slavery and oppression is a tale as old as time. And if we really wanted to demand accurate representation, the androids would resemble little girls from Nepal, young Russian women, and Filipino teenagers.

 

[Joe Condor]

Considering that white people enslaved other white people for a much longer period of time than they did africans, no it's not 'fucked'.

And that's not even considering the Arab slave trade that was going on for centuries before the Europeans started doing it.

 

[Messofanego]

Clearly OP not following this game hard enough to miss out on the PoC androids 👀

 

[Audioboxer]

Cast seems pretty diverse to me.

Also, aside from cancelling it I don't really see how the dev could solve the issue you are having with their game.. Having this futuristic society where all slave robots are black would have been way more fucked up

If that is what the OP is suggesting and even after skimming the topic I still can't quite figure it out, that would cause so much anger online and across social media. Quite honestly that would be "career suicide".

Android units are obviously modelled after humans to appear humanlike to buyers. What you want to buy could be limitless in variation as it's built, not produced somewhat randomly by biology. As in race/gender/height/hair style/etc. Seemed to me as if the models in the store showed just that. A range of built models around human diversity. I expect that to continue throughout the game irrespective of the overall writing. The Android models will come in as much diversity as real humans do. Except now it's built and can be selected right down to eye colour. Even that might make some uncomfortable but that's how it could be one day if the technology progresses. As in the element of choosing means bias or innate preferences which others could then call you out for as you aren't choosing what they would choose. I guess that's somewhat like the slippery slope of dating preferences and how people already question others for having them. When you go to buy your android and choose one are you instantly questioned as to why you didn't pick X?

Therefore it might make you uncomfortable to deal with the game due to projection onto real life issues. However, do accept it's a game based on thinking/writing done throughout entertainment mediums for generations. AI/Androids and what humans will try and do to them in order to have them serve us and do a lot of work/jobs we don't want to do. Cage isn't the first to explore this nor will he be the last. I doubt the writing of Detroit will come close to any of the great books, films or some games which have explored the concepts. However, it's big budget and Cage even with all the GAF hate still manages to tap into the choose your own adventure playstyle in a world where it's really just "Telltale or nothing". Heavy Rain was good, Beyond not as much. I'm more excited for the potential of Detroit than Beyond. It's possible as it often is the realm of AI/androids is supposed to make us feel uncomfortable about something that is quite likely but probably outwith our life times.

 

[Famassu]

I bet OP is great fun at parties.

Wanting to discuss issues of racial representation on a gaming forum intended for discussion about all things games has absolutely no bearing on how people are with friends. So stop wih that kind silly nonsense right away.

Sounds like OP wants to be offended because the trailer made him feel uncomfortable...

Considering that white people enslaved other white people for a much longer period of time than they did africans, no it's not 'fucked'.

Let's not start with this "people criticizing things are outraged" idiocy. Your kind of people crying about outrage (culture) anytime someone makes social commentary you'd like to ignore are far worse than a few misguided ideas presented by the OP.

 

[somecrazymember]

Judging by the early promo material for the game, I don't have high hopes. Detroit seems like it'll be anything but subtle. It's something that is preventing me from getting hyped for this game, regardless of how much I love Heavy Rain and enjoyed Beyond Two Souls.

It was this image that really began to worry me. Notice the text in the upper right. This is not subtle storytelling.

I really dont see the problem with that phrase.

 

[DocSeuss]

David Cage seems like the living version of the "i made this" meme image. Y'know, where a guy sees a thing, and then he takes it and says he made it.

Nothing I saw in that Detroit trailer felt like it was new. Like, sure, it's low-hanging fruit to pick on the formula, but "wow, things change depending on which of the three options you choose" isn't really interesting or meaningful game design when games like Deus Ex or STALKER exist.

But what really irks me is that... I'm pretty sure this thing has been dramatically rewritten based entirely on Cage having seen Westworld.

It's the same basic "robots revolt against their masters" story, with even less thought applied to it than Westworld had. Like, I disagree with the premise that this is about race. I think he's literally just lifting bits of Westworld wholesale. Completely different from the game we saw last year, which seem lifted directly from that bad Karl Urban sci-fi TV show.

 

[Dre_G_Writer]

As a black male who was born and raised in Detroit, this thought never even crossed my mind until I read the title and first post. Don't really Care because this is a fictional world with fictional characters, even if all the robots we're negro slaves.

To be honest, I'd probably be even more interested if there was all black robot slaves in this game. I'd be quite interested in knowing what's going on. Wouldn't get mad or upset though.

 

[Famassu]

David Cage seems like the living version of the "i made this" meme image. Y'know, where a guy sees a thing, and then he takes it and says he made it.

Nothing I saw in that Detroit trailer felt like it was new. Like, sure, it's low-hanging fruit to pick on the formula, but "wow, things change depending on which of the three options you choose" isn't really interesting or meaningful game design when games like Deus Ex or STALKER exist.

But what really irks me is that... I'm pretty sure this thing has been dramatically rewritten based entirely on Cage having seen Westworld.

It's the same basic "robots revolt against their masters" story, with even less thought applied to it than Westworld had. Like, I disagree with the premise that this is about race. I think he's literally just lifting bits of Westworld wholesale. Completely different from the game we saw last year, which seem lifted directly from that bad Karl Urban sci-fi TV show.

Lol no, this does not copy Westworld. The premise was already heavily hinted at with the Kara tech demo in, what, 2013? And the game was announced with this exact storyline far before Westworld.

 

[Audioboxer]

I really dont see the problem with that phrase.

Yeah I don't get that complaint either. If AI and Android technology gets to such as advanced stage as this then the messages will not be subtle. The machines will often exclusively be built to carry out chores and work humans don't want to do. A maid is the prime example. The cleaning of your house and all your chores. Humans already pay other humans to do this... lol. Point being this would be one of the main advertisement statements to get people buying machines. To do the work that takes away from your leisure time.

Where Detroit seems to be going though is as if AI is on par with the technology. What humans are more likely to do first is pair basic AI with complex machinery. A maid Android does not need complex AI. Just AI to the extent of being able to clean and navigate a space. We already do this with basic machinery, such as automated vacuum cleaners. For the sake of writing and make believe a lot of writers like to explore advanced AI as well as it has its own place in discussion of morality/consequence. Will AI ever be advanced enough to think for itself? If so, will the robots take over the humans?! *Judgement Day*

I can only think "hard work for her" is making some gasp. There's the disconnect between machine and human. "Her" in this concept is a descriptor for how the android appears. It would say "him" for a male Android, duh. As above Cage has jumped to advanced AI alongside lifelike androids, so we have the android revolution for effect where they don't want to be slaves or used for menial tasks anymore. A writing trope seen throughout many pieces of work where the question is often framed as can machines ever be "human"? This often then gets those who are very religious unhappy due to the concept of the soul. Basically, to cut a long story short, writing around advanced machinery/androids/AI is supposed to make us uncomfortable.

 

[Razgreez]

There were robots of all colours in that demo no?.

If you watch the Kara demo you'll notice they're just tinted a specifically colour during production anyway. You could technically order a "white" android with very asian, indian, african, middle eastern etc. features

 

[swearing-circle]

Judging by the early promo material for the game, I don't have high hopes. Detroit seems like it'll be anything but subtle. It's something that is preventing me from getting hyped for this game, regardless of how much I love Heavy Rain and enjoyed Beyond Two Souls.

It was this image that really began to worry me. Notice the text in the upper right. This is not subtle storytelling.

That is hilarious.

 

[boredandlazy]

Isn't someone else sitting in the writers' chair with Cage is this one?

 

[Nabbis]

Sounds like OP wants to be offended because the trailer made him feel uncomfortable...

Considering that white people enslaved other white people for a much longer period of time than they did africans, no it's not 'fucked'.

Well, it is based in Detroit. Though i do agree that generally this forum has a very myopic view on culture and history.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Only the hottest of takes.

^^^^^

lol @ this thread. The fucking main protagonist is a black guy.

 

[mindatlarge]

I get nothing but good vibes from this game. It seems to be pretty self aware of the potential sensitivities of its content in terms of real world issues it could be compared to.

 

[BADMAN]

Not sure what OP is getting at but I am somewhat concerned that they will hamfist the shit out of the slavery theme. I doubt the game will be offensive but the enslaved robot uprising trope is hard to do well. David Cage may be working with other writers but it's still a Cage game at the end of the day and he is not known for his subtlety.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

Ehhh, no ones outraged over this game and I made popcorn.

Kind of bummed to be honest.

 

[ForboJack]

I really dont see the problem with that phrase.

I think it's refering to the phrase "Arbeit macht frei." (work sets you free) which is an infamous quote at the entry of the concentracion camps in Germany during ww2.

 

[The Greek Freak]

It's fucked that people buy these F tier movies turned into F tier games.

David Cage doesn't know subtlety. You'll be lucky if the humans don't use "rigger" as an android slur and Cage would think he's clever.