Rumour: PS5 Devkits have released (UPDATE 25th April : 7nm chips moving to mass production)

I think you will have an announcement Q1 2019 and release towards the end of the year more or less.

That is exactly where I've been since the Pachter article nearly a year ago now. Nobody in the gaming media has ruled 2019 out so far and Rich Leadbetter has said he's sitting on info he'll talk about at a later time.

Just can't see all this if its 2.5 years away and I'm surprised so many still seem convinced 2020 or later.

Insane Metal said:
I've always stated I expect it to be revealed no early than late 2019 for a late 2020 launch. :p

I could be wrong tho.

Fair enough, just that your info about EA doesn't really fit with history. It would fit if 1, they have a launch game and 2, if PS5 is late 2019.

You might well be wrong! (in a good way)
 
T
I think they can take the hit if it means that with a PSN+ subscriptions and/or a game they can essentially call it even.

What "arrogant/mean/evil" Sony did with the PS3 is to sell for $499/599 a console that cost them something like $700-800 to manufacture (massive shortages of some components key to the Blu-Ray drive assembly and rushed/expensive partnership with nVIDIA amongst other things).

This is the problem with all the hate directed at Sony for PS3... giving you a lot more value than people were paying for... sure, it could have been designed to work better with third parties, but the value was there and they did save it and make it successful catching up to/beating their competitor who enjoyed 1.5 years alone on the market and all the advantages it brings.

The value is not the components that make it up but what is does for the customer. All first party games would have been better without the cripplingly slow connection between cpu and gpu .. it was just a bad design for everyone. The blue-ray drive was good but provided little benefit to gamers as it increased load times. Im sure Sony would have defined matching xbox as a failure.
 
The value is not the components that make it up but what is does for the customer.

I had a multimedia box with SACD support, with the ability to read all memory cart formats under the sun, WiFi and Ethernet support without buying an accessory, free online, internal user swappable HDD instead of being forced to buy an overpriced HDD inside a custom enclosure, BC with PS1 and PS2 titles, one of the better (and cheapest) Blu-Ray players on the market, support for playback of user recorded/provided video and music tracks as well as the ability to set your own custom 15 seconds preview for every video, etc...

Again, Blu-Ray playback was a feature I and many others thoroughly enjoyed and the extra storage space did provide for higher quality audio and cutscenes and thanks to the built-in HDD many developers already started with installing content to it to speed loading times.

All first party games would have been better without the cripplingly slow connection between cpu and gpu ..

FlexIO was actually quite fast, it was not equally fast for both CPU and GPU to access each other memory area (XDR and GDDR), but I do not think it was the worst part of the overall design and the most difficult workaround/learning curve point for developers.

Im sure Sony would have defined matching xbox as a failure.

Coming off the PS1 and PS2 yes, hey expected to steamroll the competition. As a corporation they did put a lot of eggs in the Blu-Ray basket and at that point PS3 not having Blu-Ray would have perhaps killed the format.
Overall it still did quite well in a generation which also had mobile gaming and Wii stealing a lot of thunder.
 
Kinda something i aspected them to push to be honest. It's a nice upgrade from this generation and can push them visually a lot further.
 
2020 is still possible, but I think 2019 is more likely, given hardware being readily available at that time and software not yet planned for 2020.

2020 is definitely possible for a couple of reasons but I just can't see EA having PS5 dev kits since early this year if the console isn't releasing until then. Not even first-party get dev kits nearly 3 years out!
 
On the media player aspect, I still think the ps3 is the best console, better than current gen ones, including mid-gen refreshes.
 
The signs show a 2018 2019 release of the ps5
Should i buy a pro now or wait for the ps5 and buy it day one

It depends, you may be able to sell it when PS5 comes out and get almost 2 years of use. I do think you will not see PS5 in stores before Q4 2019.

Regardless of whether you have a 4K screen or not many games are now at least supersampled and get some extra quality modes base PS4 does not get. I bought PS4 Pro at launch and sold my original PS4 to a friend and I am happy 😊.
 
Last edited:
Xbox one media player plays loads of things and runs kodi and flex.
So does the Ps4.... But the ps3 is still the smoothest media player experience in comparison. And of the ones I have seen, it does the best job with dvd up scaling.
 
Liten... I mean...
I'm from South America. I thought that we should write ''it'' or ''they'' when we are referring to some things like companies and impessoal stuffs.

Could you correct me?

I'm italian and in Italy she is the way we call certain companies depending of the name they use, "la sony", "la sega" so it was natural to me use "she", but you're right, "they" or "it" is the correct way to calls companies.
 
I'm italian and in Italy she is the way we call certain companies depending of the name they use, "la sony", "la sega" so it was natural to me use "she", but you're right, "they" or "it" is the correct way to calls companies.

Interesting. I never knew this.
 
I feel like we maay be starting to run away with it a tad and it's best to reel expectations in a bit to not be let down, some are reporting Navi will be a 580 replacement rather than Vega 64 replacement

https://www.fudzilla.com/news/graphics/46038-amd-navi-is-not-a-high-end-card


Navi 7nm the 2019 chip will not be a high end GPU, it will be a quite powerful performance/mainstream chip.

Think of it as the Radeon RX 580 / 480 replacement. It will be small, and is likely to perform as well as the Vega 14nm that shipped last year. In the Nvidia performance world Navi should perform close to Geforce GTX 1080 which is quite good for the mainstream part but probably on part of the mainstream part planned after the high end part.

Note there is no direct source, so this rumor would be scrutinized moreso than a typical rumor.

However, this appears reasonable.

  • Navi will likely debut on a 1st gen 7nm process without the yield benefits of EUV (officially we only know that it's on some kind of 7nm process). Therefore, small chips are better if you're only selling to gamers (7nm Vega 20 has pro customers).
  • The existing mid-range (Polaris 10 & 11) will be 3 years old in 2019 and desperately needs a replacement.
  • AMD has previously dealt with a mid-range-only gaming lineup (see 2016), so it's not entirely unexpected that they'll do it again.
  • Vega still has a 4 shader engine limit, which limits the GPU to 64CUs. That's basically Vega 10. Therefore, Navi 10 can only be a "shrunken" Vega 10 unless this limit is removed. However, this limit has existed since GCN debuted, so I doubt it's going anywhere until post-Navi.
  • On a brief aside, the number of compute engines has been an unexpectedly interesting point of discussion over the years. Back in 2013 we learned that the then-current iteration of GCN had a maximum compute engine count of 4, which AMD has stuck to ever since, including the new Vega 10. Which in turn has fostered discussions about scalability in AMD's designs, and compute/texture-to-ROP ratios.
    Talking to AMD's engineers about the matter, they haven't taken any steps with Vega to change this. They have made it clear that 4 compute engines is not a fundamental limitation – they know how to build a design with more engines – however to do so would require additional work.


So think Vega 64 performance in Radeon 580 power, which is still a proper generational leap in performance per watt, but it's a mid range part like the 580 and likely a small tamp down on the part for an APUs power envelope shared with the CPU looking at the PS4.

The Radeon 580 is 6.1Tflops, the Vega 64 is 12.5, so expecting more than a smidgen above the latter is getting optimistic imo. Rounding up to 13 we're about about 7X up from the base PS4 (very very simply, barring any memory, ROP, TMU etc bottlenecks), which ain't bad in my books. 15+Tflops is stretching so far as I see.


I think Navi being a mid-range GPU is a common misconception. AMD is looking to do the same thing with their GPUs as they have done with their CPUs, that is move from traditional 'monolithic' chip design to modular one.

Navi won't just be AMD's mid range design going forward, it will be their only design. For the high-end they will simply stack multiple Navi GPU dies and combine them with something similar to the infinity fabric used for Zen.

They will have one design that scales from low to high-end. For example, AMD's server CPU line EPYC, is just a number of combined Ryzen chips woven together on the infinity fabric. Having one design with this scalability is immensely cheaper and easier to manufacture.


AMD-_GPU-_Architecture-_Roadmap-_Vega-10.jpg


You can see from the roadmap that"scalability" is one of Navi's key features. I wouldn't be surprised if Navi was essentially the same as Vega but with a scalable modular design. It would make sense for AMD to take known architecture first and move it to this new design philosophy, rather than adding more variables and risk by trying to do both at the same time.
 
That is an old roadmap now, Finney. A lot could have changed by now.

I still think it possible the lead application for Navi could be the PS5 APU though it might be that a high-end/low volume Navi PC GPU might launch just before PS5 if it did launch Nov '19.
 
I think Navi being a mid-range GPU is a common misconception. AMD is looking to do the same thing with their GPUs as they have done with their CPUs, that is move from traditional 'monolithic' chip design to modular one.

Navi won't just be AMD's mid range design going forward, it will be their only design. For the high-end they will simply stack multiple Navi GPU dies and combine them with something similar to the infinity fabric used for Zen.

They will have one design that scales from low to high-end. For example, AMD's server CPU line EPYC, is just a number of combined Ryzen chips woven together on the infinity fabric. Having one design with this scalability is immensely cheaper and easier to manufacture.


AMD-_GPU-_Architecture-_Roadmap-_Vega-10.jpg


You can see from the roadmap that"scalability" is one of Navi's key features. I wouldn't be surprised if Navi was essentially the same as Vega but with a scalable modular design. It would make sense for AMD to take known architecture first and move it to this new design philosophy, rather than adding more variables and risk by trying to do both at the same time.


Infinity fabric also isn't a panacea, a monolithic die is still king for performance.

mcm-gpu2.png


From what we've seen, Infinity Fabric is less bandwidth than even that 768GB/s MCM tested, by a lot.

Question then becomes if two (or more) dies with higher yields is enough of a value prospect to be worth that loss, it could well be, though Nvidia looked at it and wasn't too interested it seems, the two different approaches will be interesting to see.

For the purposes of the PS5 though, I don't think all this is all that relevant, the multi-die will be to scale above that chip, while the PS5 is unlikely to spend more die area than the four SEs mentioned, Vega 64+ performance in Radeon 580 power or less, as I've estimated.



By the way, Vega, let alone Navi, was an interesting thing, there were a number of features built for the future but not yet enabled in launch drivers, such as next gen geometry culling and primitive shaders. So even just putting it in a console with an API that uses all of its features may see it do better than its Windows counterpart since all the developers know 100% of the target hardware supports these things.

https://techreport.com/news/33153/radeon-rx-vega-primitive-shaders-will-need-api-support

The new programmable geometry pipeline on Vega will offer up to 2x the peak throughput per clock compared to previous generations by utilizing a new "primitive shader." This new shader combines the functions of vertex and geometry shader and, as AMD told it to me, "with the right knowledge" you can discard game based primitives at an incredible rate. This right knowledge though is the crucial component – it is something that has to be coded for directly and isn't something that AMD or Vega will be able to do behind the scenes.

So, here is why the PS5 is definetely NOT coming in 2018 or even 2019:

Or if it's BC and it catches the wind juuust right, it could carry on the momentum seamlessly, here's a new box with new exclusives that also runs all of the current PS4 games better. At any rate I'm #team2020
 
Last edited:
So, here is why the PS5 is definetely NOT coming in 2018 or even 2019:

Dbygc-RWAAAIJuy.png:large



PS4 is BY FAR the best they've ever been. There's no chance they're simply throwing all of this away for a new console.
 
Last edited:
So, here is why the PS5 is definetely NOT coming in 2018 or even 2019:

Dbygc-RWAAAIJuy.png:large



PS4 is BY FAR the best they've ever been. There's no chance they're simply throwing all of this away for a new console.
I would actually argue that it's a good reason to release PS5 in 2019.

I'm not tech-savvy, but from what I gather architecture should be similar/the same(?) so BC should be a no-brainer.
If that happens, Sony can just build upon Ps4's success and ease into next-gen. People can just go buy a PS5 and still play with their friends on PS4 en vice versa.

It'll be 6 years after the release of PS4 and 3 years after Pro, which is more than enough time.
It can also allow them to gain ground early on to get ahead of Xbox.

It'd be a win-win situation, really.
 
So, here is why the PS5 is definetely NOT coming in 2018 or even 2019:

Dbygc-RWAAAIJuy.png:large



PS4 is BY FAR the best they've ever been. There's no chance they're simply throwing all of this away for a new console.

You confuse me Insane. If your friend of a friend tells the truth about dev kits then late 2019 must be on. No way they would have dev kits this early if 2020 or later.
 
So, here is why the PS5 is definetely NOT coming in 2018 or even 2019:


PS4 is BY FAR the best they've ever been. There's no chance they're simply throwing all of this away for a new console.

That's not what that means at all. It reinforces Sony's PS4 business model/choices.

Will a PS5 help grow or hinder the PS user-base? Sony should view their units like mini-PCs. PSN/Sony OS is what will/should connect all future x86 units.

We might not see PS5 exclusives for a long while, if at all. Games, from here on out, might be developed to scale to the unit. No more fracturing the user base
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't even be surprised if Sony looks to get a PSN client on the PC. A yearly fee to have access to PS exclusives or anything available in the PS eco-system... why not? What drives their profit? The larger their user-base the better for them.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if there is confusion with the Pro dev kit and OG dev kit, Insane? They might think the Pro is PS5 if they aren't tech savvy?

Pro:

ps4-pro-neo-devkit-testkit-ofw-3-70-pictures-and-screenshots-jpg.1681


OG:
800px-DUH-D1000AA_-_front_lateral.png
 
There has to be launch day exclusives from 1st party devs at least, otherwise there will be no games to justify even releasing the console, it's just another pro.
 
Nope. This was a new devkit they got at around February, IIRC.

That is, IF this info is correct.

I guess we'll have to wait for more info then. A model number would tell us a lot for example (PS4 Pro dev kit model number is DUH-D7000XX)

I still say it must be targeting late 2019 launch to have a dev kit in February 2018.
 
Interesting. I never knew this.
In the Italian language there is no concept of an indeterminate pronoun. In English an animal or an object is an "it". In Italian you either use a male or female pronoun for everything. So yes, companies are usually "female".
 
7nm EUV = 2021-2022 PS5 Pro
No it's not, it's 2019 and have always been 2019 and on top of that I believe it was TSMC or GloFo that bought additional machines for it last year.
It is why 2020 launch would make more sense, plus your 25 year PlayStation, plus maybe even Zen3.
To be fair now that the consoles themselves are literal PC parts you don't need a psychical machine for a dev-kit to start developing with estimate power.
Ryzen is available, Vega is available, those could very well used but better/approximate as a base for development until the actual units arrive.
If you're going to have games for the system at launch then they would be in development at this point one way or the other, they're being build on something.


x86_to_2020.jpg
 
If Sony keeps using proprietary file formats for sound, image, video files, etc, then it makes sense for dev kits to start going out now for a 2020 release, to ensure games are ready for release day. Devs also need to get used to use the new features of vega/navi in GNM and that would be hard without the dev kit.
 
7nm EUV = 2021-2022 PS5 Pro


It's a bonus over 7nm FF but not so much that a Pro would be a substantial step up, that would have to wait for 5nm to have anything like a PS4 - PS4 Pro jump.

If they are able to adapt it at cost for the base PS5, that would be gravy. If not, 7nm FF should be quite mature by 2020, tuning down power.
 
Last edited:
If Sony keeps using proprietary file formats for sound, image, video files, etc, then it makes sense for dev kits to start going out now for a 2020 release, to ensure games are ready for release day. Devs also need to get used to use the new features of vega/navi in GNM and that would be hard without the dev kit.

Disagree. Most third-party devs didn't get a PS4 dev kit until the second half of 2012 at least and more at the end of 2012 or beginning of 2013. The transition between PS3>PS4 was far greater too.

If it is true that a proper PS5 dev kit is in third-party hands in February 2018 then it would only make sense for late 2019 but then it would still be earlier than when TP devs got PS4 dev kits.

If PS5 is 2020 then I'd need some pretty compelling evidence to believe dev kits exist today.
 
Last edited:
Sony does like to get input from 3rd party devs for the hardware, this dev kit could be just to get their opinion about working with that specific hardware.
 
That's not what that means at all. It reinforces Sony's PS4 business model/choices.

Will a PS5 help grow or hinder the PS user-base? Sony should view their units like mini-PCs. PSN/Sony OS is what will/should connect all future x86 units.

We might not see PS5 exclusives for a long while, if at all. Games, from here on out, might be developed to scale to the unit. No more fracturing the user base

No Sony has already said that their will be PS5 exclusive games on the next console. That isn't changing. And for good reason.
 
So, here is why the PS5 is definetely NOT coming in 2018 or even 2019:

Dbygc-RWAAAIJuy.png:large



PS4 is BY FAR the best they've ever been. There's no chance they're simply throwing all of this away for a new console.

Why would be releasing PS5 Q4 2019 throw that away? It is over a year and a half from now and PS4 will not stop being on sale or manufactured on the same day PS5 comes out. Also, in order to help the new platform succeed you do not wait until the old one is cold and forgotten.

What was so bad about the PS3 to PS4 transition?
Why would a transition like Wii to Wii U (market conditions wise, as you suggested) be better? How did that help the Wii U (despite its other issues)?
 
There has to be launch day exclusives from 1st party devs at least, otherwise there will be no games to justify even releasing the console, it's just another pro.

Guerrilla Games are free to make Killzone Shadow Fall 2 and I'm sure Japan have staff ready to make Knack 3.
 
The stock Ryzen clocks higher than that Zen+/2 is said to be capable of even higher clocks. Why would they underclock it out the gate? Why not just run stock?

Higher yields and lower TDP/temps. A Zen+ 8 core CPU clocked at 3Ghz doesn't put out much heat but it'll still be a substantial upgrade over the Jaguar cores.
 
Question then becomes if two (or more) dies with higher yields is enough of a value prospect to be worth that loss, it could well be, though Nvidia looked at it and wasn't too interested it seems, the two different approaches will be interesting to see.

lol, you might have missed something there.

but the rest of your analysis seems reasonable. i don't think we will see a more than one die GPU design in PS5. what im pretty sure we will see, is that the CPU and GPU will be descrete dies not like a classical PC set up but interconnected via infinity fabric (Hades Canyon has already shown that this is possible). the benefit in production cost is simply much to compelling to not do this. not sure that it's a given that they would necessary stick with that 4SE limit in Navi though (but then again it's AMD...).
 
For those asking me about the graph I posted before.

Characteristics-of-the-Product-Life-Cycle-Stages-and-their-Marketing-Implications-1024x613.png


If you look at the PS history (and basically any console family history or even 99% of consumer products history), that's how it works. The 'next generation' arrives after the product reached it's peak and when it is way into its sales decline. That is not the case with the PS4 for 2018 or even 2019.
 
People really need to chill about next gen consoles. You have 7nm coming up, then maybe 3nm, then current silicon tech is 'doomed'. So at best we have 2 more next gen consoles before major new technology is required.

This to me means another mid gen style console is unlikely, so whatever comes next is going to need to be built to last. They both should wait until they can deliver the very best that 7nm tech can provide.
 
lol, you might have missed something there.

but the rest of your analysis seems reasonable. i don't think we will see a more than one die GPU design in PS5. what im pretty sure we will see, is that the CPU and GPU will be descrete dies not like a classical PC set up but interconnected via infinity fabric (Hades Canyon has already shown that this is possible). the benefit in production cost is simply much to compelling to not do this. not sure that it's a given that they would necessary stick with that 4SE limit in Navi though (but then again it's AMD...).


I should be more clear - they're interested, clearly, but their high end gaming GPUs are expected to be monolithic for a while, 1100 series at least. They're at the reticle limit with V100 and of course would be interested in this as they reach the limits of its current GPU architectural model.

It's interesting, but Nvidia seems more keen from the angle of massive accelerators, where AMD could use it to reduce the cost of making gaming GPUs, taking the hit to scaling performance.


I do like the idea of moving back to dedicated CPUs and GPUs in the PS5, it could still have unified memory which is the main thing developers wanted from APUs. Dedicated parts could mean more total die area to spend on a newish node, and allow a higher total TDP to be cooled.

If they don't remove the four shader engine limit of GCN, maybe instead it could just take more power with a return to beefier cooling to reach the upper end of estimates, I'd be fine with that so long as it was quiet. The PS3 had a massive heatsink and fan assembly, spanning most of the width and depth of the console, the PS4 was relatively tame from day one.

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/PlayStation+3+Teardown/1260
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/PlayStation+4+Teardown/19493
 
For what its worth, a friend of mine worked at Havok and they got early PS4 devkits in somewhere 2011.

Sure which makes perfect logical sense. Someone like EA can't make use of a dev kit if there is no OS (Sony/ICE team) or compatible middleware, right?

That is why I question EA having a dev kit in February this year unless they are doing a launch game and PS5 is late 2019 at the latest.
 
Sure which makes perfect logical sense. Someone like EA can't make use of a dev kit if there is no OS (Sony/ICE team) or compatible middleware, right?

Yep :) Actually, said friend was responsible for one of the little demo-bits they showed when they announced the PS4 in february 2013.
But I do think that if Sony is sticking with x86 and an AMD APU, there is very little what stops them to pushing out early devkits with ballpark specs, even if its just to iterate on things and get developers on board by giving them a chance to get a grip on things and deliver early feedback.
 
It takes 3-4 years to make a game, even if they launch in 2021 there would be "dev-kits" out there already.
What I'm dying to know is what specs will be, looking forward to a 4K microled/oled tv sometime in 2020/2021 :3
 
Top Bottom