TBiddy
Member
How on Earth did you arrive at that conclusion?
Crytek Engineer praising PS5 and Chris "Series X PS5 difference is staggering" Grannell may be both complete utter frauds
- Thread starter Nickolaidas
- Start date
How on Earth did you arrive at that conclusion?
Nickolaidas
Banned
I don't know ... Common sense?
TBiddy
Member
In other words - guesswork.
Dontero
Banned
Explain why games looked the same on Xbox One X despite being several times stronger than Xbox One.
By looking at every Sony exclusive. Aside from some remasters and GT series all of them run at 30fps.
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GHG
Member
But MS's already started doing this xD. Halo Infinite, Hellblade 2, Project Mara, Everwild, the Fable 4 (potentially) concept shots etc. What you probably mean to say is they should start showing us some next-gen gameplay, because otherwise I'd say MS have already been doing a decent job showing some games in general since December.
As for the percentages stuff; look, I like keeping numbers clean. If you start fudging numbers you can start creating talking points that don't need to exist. I'm interested enough in these next-gen systems to want to keep the numbers (and the method of arriving at them) consistent between them both.
For others, I'm sure that they just care about discussing next-gen in that given way, and of course not everyone is going to like seeing numbers and percentages going all over the place but there are some of us who actually like doing that from time to time and that's okay
I wasn't talking about you when referencing the decimal place percentage differences, there are percentage calculator screenshots on this page debating a 0.5% difference which is basically a rounding error. At that point... Let it go.
We've not seen any gameplay, that's what I'm talking about. It's all nice to see tech demos and target renders running off PC's running i9s and 2080ti's but that's not what people want to see. It's not 2005 anymore (thank god).
Nickolaidas
Banned
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
You know how stupid it is arguing over 17% vs 18%?
Just shows you how meaningless the difference is between the two consoles, literally the smallest in history
yes, some things will scale better with clocks, some will scale better with CUs
at the end of the day it doesn't matter. There is no "staggering" difference like some are trying to narrate
if you are picking between the two consoles soles based on TFlops you're wildly out of touch with reality.
Just shows you how meaningless the difference is between the two consoles, literally the smallest in history
yes, some things will scale better with clocks, some will scale better with CUs
at the end of the day it doesn't matter. There is no "staggering" difference like some are trying to narrate
if you are picking between the two consoles soles based on TFlops you're wildly out of touch with reality.
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replicant-
Member
Which means Sony's investment in the ssd tech is misplaced outside of 1st party developed games. Especially considering a high proportion of PC gamers are still *shudder* on mechanical drives.
I'm buying both day one. But as far as I can see so far the X will be the better console to suit my gaming technical needs.
As of now we don't even know if the PS5 gpu has the full RDNA 2 feature set e.g. vrs. I'm also less convinced about their RT implementation than XSX, RTX and Ampere.
At the end of the day all of this online pondering and arguing is because Sony has failed to be transparent at a consumer level.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
it's not misplaced because the primary platform will be PS5 because it will sell more
how much these devs optimize for the ssd will vary, but it should be fairly easy to develop superior LOD streaming solutions on PS5, and the assets are always initially created at a higher level than what's in the game
this idea that it won't be used is silly. It won't take full advantage, but it will be used almost universally with the added benefit of significant decreased load times which impact every game a user plays
replicant-
Member
There was no staggering difference between the two base consoles yet initial Sony marketing leaned heavily in 1080p and power.
.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
It's not meaningless, it's intentional misrepresentation that needs to be nipped in the bud as soon as it's seen.
That 18%+ turns into 17% then it turns into 16%, then people say 15-18% and so on and so forth.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Don't you see a weird double-standard here in that you are dismissing my opinion because I can only argue, as opposed to empirically prove, my point yet the person who's credibility I'm challenging just needs to assert stuff and its taken as fact?
My annoyance stems from wondering if I need a Twitter account to prove my career bona-fides?
CatLady
Selfishly plays on Xbox Purr-ies X
How is that someone working at a major studio and working on a next gen game has never used or had access to next gen devkits?
Nickolaidas
Banned
Except that if ms makes the lockheart versions inferior to anything but resolution, they will accused by the gaming community of releasing an obsolete and useless piece of hardware, unable to keep up with current gen from day one.But MS's already started doing this xD. Halo Infinite, Hellblade 2, Project Mara, Everwild, the Fable 4 (potentially) concept shots etc. What you probably mean to say is they should start showing us some next-gen gameplay, because otherwise I'd say MS have already been doing a decent job showing some games in general since December.
As for the percentages stuff; look, I like keeping numbers clean. If you start fudging numbers you can start creating talking points that don't need to exist. I'm interested enough in these next-gen systems to want to keep the numbers (and the method of arriving at them) consistent between them both.
For others, I'm sure that they just care about discussing next-gen in that given way, and of course not everyone is going to like seeing numbers and percentages going all over the place but there are some of us who actually like doing that from time to time and that's okay
None of your logic makes a lick of sense. The Pro and X served different use-cases and purposes relative to their base hardware, than the XSX will serve to Lockhart, primarily because if we go by MS's messaging thus far XSX appears to be the baseline, not the inverse.
So everything you mention in terms of special effects, ai scripts, character models etc. will very likely be scaled down to Lockhart, not scaled up to XSX. Much improved dev programming/creative practices and scalability of code, engine components, engines and advancements in API efficiency make this easier than it's ever been.
That should naturally mean that XSX 1st-party games will target XSX and scale down what they can to Lockhart. We don't even fully know what Lockhart will be, anyhow; if it's a streaming-focused system then it won't be much of anything to XSX and can be sold for even cheaper, but that's just speculation on my end.
There are other reasons to have reservations regarding Lockhart but they fall more into the logistics territory, i.e how it could impact manufacturing capacity, pricing, and marketing cohesion for the XSX. Which is why I'd rather Lockhart come down two years from launch (or even just a year after launch) than alongside XSX right out of the gate, so here's to seeing what happens in the next couple of months.
As a result, they'll need to keep the visuals and gameplay elements completely identical, with resolution (and possibly framerate) being the sole difference.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Looked the same as in XBO could run RDR2 at 4K? I didn't know that!
That aside, you need to keep in mind the X was just a mid-gen refresh, no games natively targeted it as a baseline, same with the Pro. And not all devs utilized the extra headroom of the mid-gen refreshes in the best of ways.
I wouldn't surmise the XSX game footage is running off hardware beyond what XSX can put out natively because honestly, it would be a bad sign for next-gen. It's not improbable the realtime gameplay for those games will match the demos whatsoever, but I am glad they've shown at least a little bit in that regard.
Your point with the percentages is merited, but people can still use those calculators wrong, like that poster did. If the percentages come from working upwards, that should stay consistent in all percentage comparisons. So someone claiming a 17% delta for XSX and PS5 but a 40% delta for PS4 and XBO are using two different methods and being inconsistent, IMO.
Yes in the grand scheme it's a very small thing to have a pet peeve over but there it is
. It's just more about accuracy I suppose, not that the thing itself is the single biggest takeaway regarding next-gen discussion.Which is why IMO they either make Lockhart an Xcloud-optimized streaming device, or release a couple years after XSX. If neither can be met, probably best to just not release it. XSX is already good enough for next-gen for them, would rather their focus be one one next-gen platform instead of split by two.
Your reasoning would fall somewhat into the logistical side of things as well as some of the technical side, fwiw.
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TBiddy
Member
Instead of wasting both of our times with this, just explain your position.
Nickolaidas
Banned
Find me an xbox one exclusive that looks better than the last of us 2. Or ghost of tsushima.
Since the xbox one x is a stronger console and isn't kept back by the xbox one s, such a task should be easy.
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replicant-
Member
Translation. It won't take full advantage = misplaced investment when current NVMe is a game changer compared to current gen.
Ill be surprised if a 3rd party game will be better on the PS5 due to their SSD tech than on the XSX or my PC with a pcie 4 nvme.
As a PS5 owner I will happily be corrected at launch.
TBiddy
Member
What an odd argument. Referring to two unreleased games as your "gotcha"?
I believe we're back at the guesswork part of your previous post. And that's ok. We're all guessing, since none of us have any clue about next gen games.
Nickolaidas
Banned
My 'gotcha' is the fact that the x1x is powerful enough to blow the pro out of the water, and yet it can't because of its retarded little brother, the x1s.
And I fear that the lockheart will do the same 'damage' to the series x.
That's how on earth I came to this conclusion.
TBiddy
Member
No console runs games at higher resolution than the X1X, and it sure as hell blows the PS4 Pro out of the water in that aspect.
I still think it's odd to reference TLOU2 and Ghosts in order to prove a point about graphics.
Your conclusions that "all exclusives will run at 60 fps on series x" and that "all exclusives will look better on the PS5" is guesswork based on absolutely nothing.
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
the issue wasnt really the 40% difference, it was that you had to pay $100 more for a product that was weaker
yeah, the difference between 900p and 1080p really wasn't all that great, even less so with X vs Pro as you get diminishing returns with higher resolution
now we are talking about a difference of less than half of what was there before, with other components that could are better on the platform with less TF (such as I/O speeds)
James Sawyer Ford
Banned
theres not going to be a clear winner in the third party comparisons
you will get one platform with mildly better resolution, and another platform with better streaming of assets, LOD, and loading
Dontero
Banned
Yeah just mid game refresh. I mean if scaling is so easy like you said why games didn't target Xbox one X ?
The answer: Scaling is not easy. Scaling UP is easy. because you add framerate few effects and resolution. By scaling down you cut features.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
Better? I don't know about that, different in design, engine, target and goals but equally as good? Sure.
Because you're confused and think that one developer is equal to another. It has nothing to do with limitations imposed on a lesser system and everything to do with development goals.
Red Dead Redemption 2 alone guts both of those games and that was built with four systems in mind including the Xbox One base. Did anyone at any point question that what is still the best looking game in existence was being held back? Nope.
Funny how that works out.
Nickolaidas
Banned
You're thinking resolution, I'm thinking number of polygons on character models and visual effects like explosions, particle effects, ai scripts and the like.
On that aspect, I expect the series x to be inferior to the ps5, despite being capable of the opposite, because of the lockheart.
Dontero
Banned
Pretty much. Not only that. Lighting method, shadow technology, reflections technology. Everything will be different if lockheart exist. The worst part is that lockheart will not only limit Xbox but also PS5, only PS5 exclusives will run superb looking games in taht case.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
None of this is accurate.
Nickolaidas
Banned
That is my fear as well. Multiplats will suffer because of the lockheart.
TBiddy
Member
They are mid gen refreshes. The X1X has been out for about 2½ years. You were never going to see a game fully optimized for that console, since most games are in development for longer than that.
I think it's really odd to start concluding that exclusives will look inferior on the XSX and that they will always run at 60 fps. Of course, it's always allowed to make guesses.
Nickolaidas
Banned
Indeed. We'll know in a couple of years if the lockheart is harmless, or this gen's biggest farce.
TBiddy
Member
IF Lockhart exists - and that's a big IF - it's going to be a console that has the same CPU, the same type of SSD and a GPU with adequate horsepower to run next-gen games at 1080p. If we assume that XSX will run games at 4k with it's 12 TF, 4 TF is more than enough to run the same games at 1080p.
I trust Microsoft will provide developers with the adequate tools to target the XSX and let the games scale (more or less) automatically to Lockhart. It should be 'easy' if all else is equal, besides the GPU.
I trust Microsoft will provide developers with the adequate tools to target the XSX and let the games scale (more or less) automatically to Lockhart. It should be 'easy' if all else is equal, besides the GPU.
Dontero
Banned
They will. The only alternative i see is when MS would fail to sell anything, then developers would be just ignoring that platform and move toward PS5 as baseline. Other than that only PS5 exclusives would use 10TF as baseline to show what 10TF as baseline looks like.
yes yes i know what you think. By your words N64 is capable of running RDR2 because it is just scaling down or some other bullshit in your head.
Of course lockheart will run next gen games. But those games will be designed for 4TF and scaled up to 12TF model with better framerate and resolution. The only difference will be TV you are playing it on not how game looks tech wise. Which is exactly how it is done with Xbox One and Xbox One X.
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
Some of you guys make it impossible to have a sound and reasonable conversation.
Red Dead Redemption 2 is a definitive example and evidence of your 'argument' having absolutely no merit.
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MasterCornholio
Member
If developers are smart they will focus on the one in the middle and just scale up or down from there. If the Lockhart gets a terrible port of the game so be it. People who pay so little for a system should know what they are getting themselves into.
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TBiddy
Member
I'll repeat myself.
If the Lockhart exists and is as rumoured, it will easily run the next-gen games. If we have a game running at 4k60 at the XSX with all the bells and whistles, and whatever you expect from next-gen, that game should run at 1080p60 at Lockhart, just like that.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
I already went over this with them, they refuse to believe it. It's literally the identical logic to a PC running a game at 4K60 at max settings with an RTX 2080 Ti, what is the only thing you have to do with an RTX 2060 to get that same experience?
*drum roll*
Lower the resolution.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
digital foundry gave best looking game to death stranding if i'm not mistaken.
And ghost of tsushima, is even better looking, was even mistaken by some for a next gen title.
red dead redemption 2 has likely an unreasonable high budget. And still it looks pretty similar to the base xbox one version in other platforms.
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
Dontero
Banned
RDR2 us literally definition of what i say. It is game designed around 1,2TF XboxOne. Only thing that changes when you go to XboxOneX is few effects and resolution. Game still fundamentally looks like that on Xbox One it has just better resolution.
So story will be exactly like that with Lockheart. Game will be designed for Lockheart and then SEX will be same damn game with same graphics but with 4k.
You can scale up easily but you can't scale down easily. If scaling down was easy you would be able to play right now Battlefield5 on PS2. Every technology used has minimum required amount of power to run.
That is why baseline matters.
Yes game will be designed for Lockheart and then SEX will be just 4k version of that game. Much like Xbox One X games are the same Xbox One games tech wise with just increased resolution.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Sony's bet on SSD isn't misplaced because at the end of the day multi platform games will be closer than ever and exclusives will be, once again, be the main differentiators between consoles.
From the controller to the SSD, to the rumors about OS features, it's clear that Sony is focused on differentiating itself from the competition.
From the controller to the SSD, to the rumors about OS features, it's clear that Sony is focused on differentiating itself from the competition.
DynamiteCop!
Banned
And yet it's still the best looking game in existence, how is that possible?
One answer, you're wrong.
Dontero
Banned
More like you made statements no one considers even logical thinking you are smart. You don't have any idea how technology works and you think that only that matters is resolution. Which is why you are using PC gpus for comparison.
I already explained it to you multiple times but here we go again:
Consider this. There is technology that runs on 2080Ti at 30fps let us call it global illumination 3.0 . If you go to 2060 it runs at 5fps. Which means you can't run that technology on slower hardware.
So how can you "scale it down" ? Explain it mate.
Trick question for brain of your size. What if Xbox One didn't exist and only Xbox One existed would game look the same ?
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
actually far more happens in death stranding than in red dead redemption, but if you want details on what it is it is spoilery.
TBiddy
Member
You can't compare the two situations. One of them is a mid-gen refresh (with two rather different designs, mind) which developers couldn't care less about and the other is (if we believe rumours) a console just a capable as the XSX, just at a lower resolution.
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
The underpinning to your logic would be that the 2080 Ti is doing such at a bottomed out resolution where the 2060 could scale no further, this situation doesn't and will never exist in reality so your "gotcha" moment takes a dirt nap instantly.
The irony in saying I don't know how technology works haha. You can't even say Lockhart correctly and you're expecting me to take you and your poor examples seriously.
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Thirty7ven
Banned
Read Dead Redemption 2 might be the best looking game in your eyes, but the X1X isn't the best looking version. That would be the higher end PC. Had it been made with the X1X as a baseline, it certainly would've looked even better.
And God of War, Spider-Man, Horizon, GT Sport, Death Stranding, etc all these belong to the very top tier of best looking games of the generation and at least thus far you can only play them on PS4 or PS4 Pro. Both systems where you can also play Read Dead Redemption 2. It's the whole point of getting one console vs another, to find experiences you can't get elsewhere. And because PS4 is a higher baseline than the Xbox One, first party Sony games look on average, significantly better than MS ones.
Also the Xbox One X isn't "the Xbox", Xbox One IS "the Xbox". The vast vast majority of people who played Read Dead Resemption 2 on Xbox didn't do it on the 1X, despite all the lengths MS has gone through to try and eliminate it of the discussion.
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
Oh I'd love to hear this, fixed time of day, no wildlife, no people, no dynamic environment to speak of or weather system beyond timefall, no vegetation except in very static and isolated locations, barely any physics interaction to speak of and so on and so forth.
The game is a barren and largely dead environment covered in moss and rocks with very little else.
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Dontero
Banned
Why i can't ? What is the difference ?
Do you think devs who make graphics said: "Look we don't want to use that power. Let us wait with it !"
No, they simply couldn't because any game designed around XboxOneX would mean that this game wouldn't work on XboxOne.
Similar story here. Any game that is designed around SEX only will not work on Lockheart
Again with resolution. Do you understand that there are other things than resolution ? Does battlefield running at 1080p require more power than minecraft at 4k ?
Things like that show that you don't know anything about technology. I doubt you even know what is global illumination to begin with.
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DynamiteCop!
Banned
This is great and all yet how does a game match or surpass the best looking Sony exclusives graphically if the development is hamstrung to the Xbox One base console?
It might be, because the narrative that is whack, has no basis in reality and developer talent is more important than any perceived physical limitations.
The entire discussion of how this system would function is stringent on resolution, you're off on a tangent right now. As noted the only way a 2060 could not replicate something a 2080 Ti is doing at 30 FPS is if that 2080 Ti was at a bottomed out resolution which the 2060 could not scale down to mitigate its performance loss.
A fake scenerio that would never exist, you're lost in the woods.
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