I think the Pro wouldn't be at 3080 levels of performance since it will be a close system and probably has the same feature set as the ps5 to improve utilization.
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Massive FTC Leak: Mid Gen Xbox Hardware, Series S/X Refreshes, New Controller, and Game Plans!
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You should always have in mind cost of the console, die size and node used. If not you will always be disappointed by hardware.
I am certainly taking cost and die size etc into account and even then a 3080 is still a bit conservative for a premium mid gen console, we have 4070ti falling into the diesize expected of the onex/ps4 pro at 295mm2 and the ps5pro will be using 4nm compared to the 5nm used by current gpus etc. Ofcourse amd isnt exactly inspiring confidence but even then they should be able to manage more compute power than a 3080 in that die size with rdna4.
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HeisenbergFX4
Member
Also have to keep it under $599 and honestly I can only imagine what someone like Insomniac could do with a 3080 level console
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Your first mistake is that you think people outside places like this forum are interested in performance numbers or sales pitches. All they need to know is that PS5pro is the most powerful console and the new console. They would plug that shit into a 1080p TV and still believe its the best thing out there.
As I said based on the ps4 pro a 4070ti die would fall in line with even cost, of course nvidia is not an option due to their massive premium but an amd gpu of the same die size was under 400$ on the ps4 pro. This time sony can charge a 200$ premium over the base digital console and they really have no excuse to be managing only 3080 levels in the console.Also have to keep it under $599 and honestly I can only imagine what someone like Insomniac could do with a 3080 level console
That being said I also heard the same thing about what devs would manage with the large upgrade from ps4 considering what devs did with 1.8 tflops and jaguar but here we are with barely anything we could classify a real nextgen upgrade yes even spiderman2 isnt exactly wowing so...yeah Im keeping expectations low on what said devs can ahieve with a 3080 considering that gpu is struggling with the newest ue5/rt workouts.
Keep in mind this was the level of fidelity insiders and devs were hyping as achievable this console gen and well ill let you decide if we are close...
You're also making the mistake of thinking those people are the target market for the premium console, said people who don't care about tech details and features will be more than happy with the base console and they won't actually see much of a difference with a modest upgrade to go for the pro. The people who are actually upgrading to the premium console are trying to gain better tech and fidelity and I think you might be surprised how knowledgeable people wanting premium tech can be, especially since marketing 4k is no longer a real option, they arent getting consistent 60fps in nextgen only/ue5 games without a cpu upgrade and they need to make something impressive to make a case for the upgrade.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
Every time someone mentions pro console pries it gets more expensive. Now we are up to $700. At this rate, the PS5pro will cost $1000.
HeisenbergFX4
Member
I doubt many actually believed that demo was going to be in working games
What I do know is UE5 is coming out in more games and look what thats doing to current consoles
I am honestly not sure why anyone would be against someone like me wanting a Pro console to play games like Wolverine, its not going to take away from the current PS5 just give people like more options
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Even then, the PS5pro is going to be at least twice as powerful as a PS5. That's enough, it does not have to do or be anything more than that, especially considering it's not going to cost more than $499.
It won't be any more or less relevant than the PS4pro was to the PS4. I don't know why people are trying to take a mountain outta a molehill on this thing. Even if its only 50% more powerful but costs 25% more than the base PS5, thats still worth it.
HeisenbergFX4
Member
I think $599 is very much in play
You would be surprised the number of insiders and devs that were actually claiming this as believable before launch and ofcourse us poor consumers ate that up. They backed this by saying it supposedly ran on a single 1080ti at 60 fps...
Yeah ue5 is basically giving these consoles a beatdown that they arent able to cope with, the only ones who have been able to get decent results are epic themselves funnily enough so not a good sign.
Im not against pro consoles at all, on the contrary im waiting for them to launch so I can buy one day 1, for me the dream is to have games able to use full rt features gi etc with improved ml based image reconstruction and decent resolutions aiming for 1440p thats it.
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No one is making a mountain out of a mole hill, we are simply discussing hardware expectations when taking into account current die sizes and tech using past mid gen consoles apu dies as a comparison and a 3080 is disappointing compared to that.
Maybe a 50% increase would be acceptable to you but not for all of us, hell 20 percent might be acceptable for you or someone dosent mean thats an acceptable bar. Also 600$ is very much on the table in my opinion.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
Xtube. Sounds like a porn site. I think it is.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Maybe you are new to this, but this whole thing has been discussed already. The PS5pro is basically going to be a 7700XT. A 54CU GPU that has a theoretical 35TF (or actual 17.5TF). And is actually around 15% less powerful than a 3080. Maybe, in a console environment, it ends up performing on-par with or better than a 3080. That's it, that is what is possible. There is just no way that it's going to be any more powerful than that.
This is old news at this point. And by enough, what I mean is that based on the already leaked PS5pro specs, we can deduce what they are trying to do. As I said before, the PS5pro, is there to guarantee that you can get a base 1440p rez to reconstruct up to 2160p@60fps. While the base PS5 would be trying to accomplish the same feat using 720p-1080p base resolutions.
So its not about what is good enough for me, it's about knowing what is possible and what isn't. What is necessary and what isn't.
And I obviously am not in the $599 camp. I don't know where you guys are getting that from or how that somehow is on the table. I am not saying it based on what I think or hope, I am saying it based on precedent. The last time Sony made a Pro console, (which is the only thing we have to go on) it came in at the original launch price of the PS4. That suggests that a PS5pro comes in at $499. And even at that, it's already bucking the trend cause it's most likely coming without a disc drive.
The way I described it before, was that one should think about the PS5pro, as what Sony would have made in 2024 if the PS5 was launching in that year... without a disc drive, for $499. At that price, they could probably be losing anywhere between $10-$60 on every PS5pro sold, but that's why the base PS5 will still cost $399 (and they are no doubt selling it at a profit by now at that price)... without a disc drive too.
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asdasdasdbb
Member
It's going to be $599 min (sans drive)... but it could be more. The chip is going to cost more, the memory is going to cost more, presumably there won't be any subsidy...
Mr.Phoenix
Member
This is just not true.... First off, RAM, which is the same amount, is only faster. This means it would probably cost around the same amount the PS5 RAM cost back in 2020, which mind you is cheaper now. Then no disc drive, that another $30 saved. We also already have an idea what the die size would be too. And the PS5pro APU wouldn't be much bigger than the OG PS5 APU, it may even be smaller.
And I don't know where you are getting this idea that it won't be subsidized, that subsidy is why the PS5 OG still stays at $399. It's also why they would be selling that disc-drive attachment for as much as $99.
It's like the people that push this $599+ narrative say so just for the sake of saying it or cause they want it to be that expensive for whatever reason, I am yet to hear a plausible case as to why it may be that expensive.
asdasdasdbb
Member
No reason to. If $599 (or whatever it ends up being) is too much... well that's what the Slim is for.
chilichote
Member
You can tell that they basically have no idea and no real interest, after all, the numbers on the Xbox were "better". But to ask what the cache scrubbers are all about and other things that are different in the PS5, they didn't come up with the idea. They could actually have made a journalistic contribution...
Lovelace cards are 4nm already, not 5nm (though they are not THAT different). PS5 Pro will also have to house the CPU and all the IO subsystem so those eat die space as well.
How about heat dissipation? Every one whines about the size of PS5 but you cannot have it both ways. PS5 consumes at maximum just over 200W, while the 4070ti over 280W alone.
How about cost to consumer? 4nm nodes are expensive and NVIDIA can counteract that by selling you the 4070ti at $800. That's for ONE component of the system. And we expect Sony to give the whole package for $200-300 less?
I hope they put RDNA4. But I doubt it. And AMD has great GPUs. Why do they not inspire confidence? They do not have a 4090 competitor but you wouldn't get that class of GPU in a console anyway so that is moot.
The ps4 pro apu was 347.7 mm2 and the one x is even larger so even with the cpu and io it still falls in line with the die size limits.
The ps4 pro was rated at 300w maximum and the gpus in the consoles will not be running at max clocks which are wildly inefficient for the amount of performance on display. The RTX 4070Ti @0.975V 2.8Ghz only has a 150w-170w power draw while retaining most of its peak performance which easily falls in line again.
It is nigh on confirmed that Sony will use 4nm for the ps5 pro so I dont know why youre acting like 4nm is a longshot. Nvidia has a massive grip on the market, are far ahead in features and tech and can charge insane premiums on their cards and are confident enough to regularly screw over even corporate giants like sony and microsoft for their greed. Amd meanwhile has a partnership with Sony and is very dependent on Sony for their business health and sales(paltry gpu sales in the pc market) and Sony has access to economies of scale to lower costs significantly not to mention I think its likely Sony will target 550$ or 600$ for the pro from the 400$ for the ps4 currently.
Well it has been hinted that a core selling point of the pro console is significant advancements in rt and possibly ml which rules out rdna3 completely considering it is barely above rdna2 there so at worst it will be a rdna3.5 with some rdna4 features. Amd dosent really make great gpus anymore sadly they are competitive in raster workloads with nvidia but are behind in power efficiency and absolutely left in the dust in rt workloads and ml...dlss3.5 is miles ahead of frs and a 4060 is smashing a damn 7900xtx in pathtracing currently amds flagship...even outside of pathtracing a 3080 is beating a 7900xtx in rt in cyberpunk for. Amd has underwhelmed immensely with rdna3 which was ridiculously unambitious as a competitive product. They need to come out swinging with rdna4 so all we can do is hope they can draw upon their past heritage for inspiration.
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TheRedRiders
Member
saintjules
Member
Yeah, I've seen that video before. Sadly we're probably generations away from something like that, eh? Who knows if at all.
I think this is the next step for games.
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I was talking about PS5, not PS4. The CPU and IO in older gen were pretty much dogshit. I don't think the SoC even had much of decompression units to eat up die space. They were also on 16nm nodes, the prices of which are nowhere near comparable to 7nm, 6nm, 5nm and especially 4nm.
PS5 was losing money for Sony at launch. So if you make a bigger chip than that and on a much more expensive node as well, then expect a bigger and more expensive console.
The wattage I quoted were real world numbers, not rated. You should not bring up any kind of undervolting because the consoles will not have that. They are mass produced products that have to work the same for everyone. And on PC those who undervolt any kind of hardware are the niche of the niche. The 4070ti is a 280W (real world) GPU.
I brought up the 4nm since you insinuated that Pro will have a node advantage over the 4070ti, which you said used 5nm, and that is not true. I'm not acting like anything, just correcting you.
AMD does not make much money from Sony. They sell a lot but at low margin. So you are wrong that they are dependant on them.
Now you bring up corporate greed and Nvidia's history almost 2 decades ago.
Even if the 4070ti was $500 you shouldn't compare them since it is ONE part of a build.
Like I said originally, if you don't have expectations rooted in reality about a console box that will be cheaper in its totality than a GPU, with a certain volume footprint, power consumption, noise generation and barely making any money to Sony, then you are just going to be disappointed.
Whatever is hinted you should throw it in the trashcan. It is vague crap that can later be dismissed as "plans change" or "that's what I heard". Unless they come out with definitive answers in the vain of Henderson leaking "Sony will release Playstation earbuds. Full stop", you should not pay attention.
Mr.Phoenix
's posts are the reasonable expectation's answer.
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Loxus
Member
Moore's law breaks down on all events and his points were really clear.
Microsoft really wants to be the Netflix of gaming, but the only ones doing so.
RickMasters
Member
I still have one of these. Awaiting my tower new M2 powered Mac Pro to replace it very shortly.Reminds me of Apple's "Pro" from a few years ago....
I wouldn't mind if they went with that design in the leaks but they need to do a 'pro' model for sure. Can't let Sony have all the fun with that.
kvltus lvlzvs
Member
xcan
charles8771
Member
Physical games doesn't have any much of advantage right now
If you look at this, you can see the biggest advantage physical games had over their digital counterparts in 7th gen
The Last of Us PSN Download Size Revealed, It Isn't Going to Destroy Your Hard Drive - PlayStation LifeStyle
Infect your HDD.
www.playstationlifestyle.net
If you brought The Last of Us on PS3 physically, you only need 50MBs on HDD
But if you brought it digitally on PS3, you need 26GBs on HDD
However was not good compromising the game design for the sake of playing it without HDD installation
RickMasters
Member
I don't think anybody wants it to be that expensive. I think people are just being on the conservative side with their expectations of the price. These consoles are still roughly 450-499 and have not had any serious permanent price drops.
It's kinda tricky to see the price point, for pro model consoles right now. If a pS5 still cost 500 bucks brand new on amazon. It's safe to say the price won't drop much in a years time….. so how much more will a pro model cost? It's not gonna be 500 bucks. PS5 might drop by 50 bucks in RRP this time next year but I'd imagine there won't be a gap as small as 50 bucks between base and pro model. Especially if it has serious performance chops.
I can see it being $549-$599 without a disk drive. PSVR2 sits in this price bracket so Sony is not a stranger with it. Can't see it being lower than this when base PS5 will be $399 without the bluray
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Fair enough. Maybe I should have prefixed everything I said about the price with that I expect the base PS5 to be priced at $399 by the time the PS5pro is launched.
So PS5 @$399. PS5pro @$499 (or max $550) and PS5 DDA (disc drive attachment which would be compatible with both)@$99.
I also believe that by the time the PS5 refresh is launched, the PS5 would cost Sony around or under $350 to make. And the PS5pro would cost them around $520.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
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HeisenbergFX4
Member
If $599 gets them to pack in more power, then,
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
As you mentioned earlier, Insomniac with Wolverine and Guerilla's Decima engine on that power level.
HeisenbergFX4
Member
Give me SM2 with a no compromise 60 fps option and the performance mode at 120 fpsAs you mentioned earlier, Insomniac with Wolverine and Guerilla's Decima engine on that power level.
Thick Thighs Save Lives
NeoGAF's Physical Games Advocate Extraordinaire
Some new transcripts that haven't been posted yet in here (I think).
Thick Thighs Save Lives
NeoGAF's Physical Games Advocate Extraordinaire
About the new PS+ revamp
This is an older email where Tim vents some of his frustrations about Bethesda game catalogue still being part of PS Now without getting much out of it.
This is an older email where Tim vents some of his frustrations about Bethesda game catalogue still being part of PS Now without getting much out of it.
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HeisenbergFX4
Member
They approached Sony a few times about getting gamepass on PlaystationAbout the new PS+ revamp
This is an older email where Tim vents some of his frustrations about Bethesda game catalogue still being part of PS Now without getting much out of it.
Thick Thighs Save Lives
NeoGAF's Physical Games Advocate Extraordinaire
I know, just sharing the internal discussions.
bender
What time is it?
Some new transcripts that haven't been posted yet in here (I think).
Case by case basis though...
Slicker than your average
Banned
Phil full of shit Spencer
Mr.NiceGuy
Banned
Case 1: Not on PlayStation
Case 2: Not on PlayStation
Case 3: Not on PlayStation
Case 4: Not on PlayStation
Case 5: Not on PlayStation
Case 6: Not on PlayStation
case 7: Also not on PlayStation
See, they are right. It's case by case.
MasterCornholio
Member
But will they compare it to the new Xbox though. That's what I'm curious to see.
HeisenbergFX4
Member
killatopak
Member
They also made a pro for PSVR. Coincidentally we have PSVR2.
