My analysis of Saturn's failure

I'm obviously talking about the graphics, physics, controls, camera, etc. In order for Sonic to run as fast and control well in a completely free roaming 3D world, you need something like this.

There's nothing stopping the developer to spice up the map, add objectives, bosses, secrets, challenges and other things in it.
It wouldn't work though, and you simply have to look at how it plays and the issues with the required level scale due to the speed, to understand it.

Frontiers has these issues all over the place. You can totally destroy the game and go flying everywhere, skipping everything.
 
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It wouldn't work though, and you simply have to look at how it plays and the issues with the required level scale due to the speed, to understand it.

Frontiers has these issues all over the place. You can totally destroy the game and go flying everywhere, skipping everything.
I played Sonic Utopia and it's the best feeling 3D sonic game so far for me.



I haven't played Frontiers because after so many failures i gave up on official Sonic games.

Just because Sega can't make a good free roaming 3D Sonic game doesn't mean others can't. Homebrew devs have shown repeatedly they can make better Sonic games than them. Remember Sonic Mania? And that awesome looking Sonic game by Pelikan?
 
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Do you know why Virtua Fighter 6 excites us ? Because it may be the first time they'll make a quality VF game.

Sorry I had to drop in real quick while trying to catch up ITT because this one line, right here, is utter brain rot. Where TF do you get the idea VF6 would be "the first good VF game"? Do you realize how idiotic that type of comment is? Then you're wondering why less people are taking your opinion seriously. Well, that's why.

Yes, let's go tell people, legit FGC champs like Fuudo, that they had shitty taste back in the '90s for playing the hell out of VF2 and VF3. Let's pretend VF3 didn't introduce game mechanics that Tekken later adopted. Let's pretend VF4 didn't sell 1+ million on PS2 and was way better received than Tekken 4 at the time by reviewers and many fighting game players. Let's pretend VF3 wasn't the most visually impressive game at a technical level, in 1996 when it launched. Let's pretend VF1 didn't set a template and standard for 3D fighting games.

Let's pretend that the franchise got any further than the first installment, as if that alone wasn't a barometer of its quality, because somehow you think SEGA are just that stupid to make four sequels to a terrible game. Sorry, but this is a stale ass cheeks opinion and you know it. At this point you are just engagement farming for views with an absolutely insane statement like this; like do better man.

September 3, 1996 Virtua Fighter Kids
November 21, 1996 Championship Circuit Edition

They wasted a lot of time and money remaking the same * games, they were idiots. It's impressive that they've made it this far. In a just world, they would never have existed as a company.

See, here you go at it again. So, we're just gonna pretend that:

-Lunacy
-Clockwork Knight 1 & 2
-Dark Savior
-Mr. Bones
-Panzer Dragoon Zwei
-The Legend of Oasis
-Neon Genesis Evangelion
-Dragon Force
-Enemy Zero
-Shining the Holy Ark

...just to name a few, were not developed and/or published by SEGA in the same year as VF Kids and Daytona CCE? Because they absolutely were. I even purposefully skipped arcade ports, and left out a lot of other original titles including well-known ones like NiGHTS.
 
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So you sold your Saturn when Shining Force III, Panzer Dragoon Saga and Burning Rangers were coming ? Wow, amazing move :messenger_grinning_sweat:

TBF, SFIII only got the first Scenario in America, and PD Saga was so damn limited in print runs that SEGA had adverts in magazines teasing people who couldn't find a copy of the game (not the best strategy to retain goodwill with customers, but incredibly ballsy and hilarious a thing to do).

Burning Rangers was an unknown entity (being a new IP), and maybe just wasn't up to their preference. Plus it ran kinda bad on Saturn framerate-wise.
 
TBF, SFIII only got the first Scenario in America, and PD Saga was so damn limited in print runs that SEGA had adverts in magazines teasing people who couldn't find a copy of the game (not the best strategy to retain goodwill with customers, but incredibly ballsy and hilarious a thing to do).

Burning Rangers was an unknown entity (being a new IP), and maybe just wasn't up to their preference. Plus it ran kinda bad on Saturn framerate-wise.
Burning Rangers was a game pushing the Saturn all the way, and a good "marker" to say - "Hey the machine can mix it up with mesh and real transparencies....(if you knew the know how..)"
 
Do you know why Virtua Fighter 6 excites us ? Because it may be the first time they'll make a quality VF game.
Go Away GIF

In 1993 Virtua Fighter created the mold for 3D fighters. In 1996 Virtua Fighter 3 showed that 3-dimensional movement and environmental design was an integral part of evolving the genre. In 2001 Virtua Fighter 4 innovated in creating AI opponents that mimic players and teaching players the hidden rules of the genre. The reason a new iteration excites is because people have been playing revisions of 2006's Virtua Fighter 5 for over 19 years. Name one franchise in the genre that has been as influential mechanically as Virtua Fighter.
 
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I played Sonic Utopia and it's the best feeling 3D sonic game so far for me.
It's because you misunderstood what Sonic is.

Sonic Adventure had a good formula; Sega just needed to make all the stages speed-focused and leave out Sonic's friends. That said, Sega finally figured out how to make Sonic 3D thanks to Shadow Generations 2024.
 
It's because you misunderstood what Sonic is.

Sonic Adventure had a good formula; Sega just needed to make all the stages speed-focused and leave out Sonic's friends. That said, Sega finally figured out how to make Sonic 3D thanks to Shadow Generations 2024.

I disagree with this " got to go fast " has always been the bane of 3d sonic. The best 2d games were platform dependent not speed.
 
It's because you misunderstood what Sonic is.

Sonic Adventure had a good formula; Sega just needed to make all the stages speed-focused and leave out Sonic's friends. That said, Sega finally figured out how to make Sonic 3D thanks to Shadow Generations 2024.

Sonic isn't about speed, it's about momentum.
not a single 3D Sonic game had actually proper momentum based gameplay that actually felt good.

early 3D Sonic games felt like ass to play. the boost Sonic games had insanely bad cameras, slugglish controls and were way too fast. Sonic Lost World actually had good controls and a good level design concept, but had almost no momentum based gameplay and the great core design concept wasn't fully utilised with actually good level design.

so, I feel like Sega themselves have misunderstood what Sonic is ever since the late 90s.
meanwhile indy devs, like Christian Whitehead, actually come out with proper momentum based 3D platformers with good controls, like Penny's Big Breakaway
 
Dreamcast's failure was a self fulfilling prophecy

Everyone I showed my Dreamcast off to loved it, but when I asked if they'd be buying one they always said "nah, Sega will drop it after a few years".

Sega dropped it because these people didn't buy it.

It sold well initially to Sega fans, but sales dropped off quickly.

It did even worse in Japan, despite the Sega brand being healthy there off the back of Saturn. You'd have thought the Japanese would have lapped it up as it came with the latest Virtua Fighter.

NEC having production issues on the GPU kinda screwed up early Dreamcast availability, but SEGA should've taken more time on the system, ensured games like Sonic Adventure & VF3 weren't gimped ports (VF3 didn't even have a VS mode at launch in Japan!), and found a way to add DVD support by default.

Those changes with a mid-1999 launch in Japan probably would've saved the system, IMHO, and we'd had seen a pretty different battle play out that gen.

For me it's just another case of Saturn being too Japanese centric.

It was a great opportunity to appeal to MegaDrive fans with familiar characters, imagine people turning their heads when they see Streets of Rage and Altered Beast characters on the box art.

Instead Rent a Hero was more important.

Idiots.

Welp, SOJ hated SOA at the time. In hindsight, I guess SOA bleeding so much money in the late Genesis years that SOJ didn't know about until late '96 due to unconsolidated accounting, would have contributed to the animosity between them. But that could've been avoided by...simply having consolidated accounting much earlier.

You don't know the truth, the success of the Sega Saturn in Japan is full of myths. Here's what happened; the almost 6 million Sega Saturns were sold in Japan in 1996, but after Final Fantasy 7 in January 1997, the PS1 went from 5 million to 10 million units sold. The impact of this game and other games in 1997 made the consumer who bought the Saturn feel retarded. A hatred against Sega was born and the Sega Saturn basically died, that's why Sega made the Dreamcast (Sega Lord X in an analysis said that Sega shouldn't have released a console in 1998, but he doesn't know that). The Saturn was dead to the consumer for 2 years. When the Dreamcast came out, nobody bought it. The story that there was a lack of chips is PR, there was no demand, but Sega didn't care because the Dreamcast was made with America in mind.

You are right that Saturn sales in Japan basically collapsed in 1997. They only moved 800K units, which was a massive drop-off compared to 1996.

But you're also misunderstanding something.

You should watch some of Jenovi's videos sometime, because he mentions something very interesting. Basically, SOJ intentionally reduced production of Saturn units in 1997 in order to stave off reporting potential revenue losses. By scaling back unit production, they were able to reduce spending costs on said production.

Plus, like others have said ITT, by 1997 SOJ were already shifting focus to the Dreamcast, since they had a planned 1998 launch. There's also the likelihood that Sonic Xtreme getting cancelled, and SOJ not having a Sonic game in development for the Saturn, made them just heavily scale back on Saturn at that point. Yes, PS1 benefited from games like FF VII, but that's only part of the picture and only part of the reason why Saturn sales slowed down as heavily as they did.

Anyone who reads my posts thinks I'm a hater, but I recognize that there was quality in Sega, for example, in the 80s, the big Japanese companies were creating the console market in that country, most companies opted for the MSX, Sega made its own MSX without adhering to the format, Nintendo was smarter and removed all computer functions, Sega saw the movement and did it too, but Nintendo's video game was more powerful, Sega knew it had no chance, but its console exceeded the target by 3x, so all the other dozens of manufacturers left the sector, leaving Nintendo and Sega, Sega is a winner, it defeated Bandai, for example. But the money they made was spent to buy their own freedom, but this freedom could turn into bankruptcy because of the PC Engine (that's why before launching the Mega Drive, they ported games to the PC Engine, their competitor). Nakayama knew that the American market was the only salvation, so they tried hard, but there were too many idiots amazing games like Alex Kidd died in the transition to 16-bit, Fantasy Zone had no future, so in an act of lucidity, they licensed Mikey Mouse. But they knew that Sega needed a new poster boy, again in an act of unparalleled creativity, they created Sonic the Hedgehog. But in the 90s Sega entered a cold war against Namco in the arcade market and lost because they spent tons of money while Namco gave up on high-end hardware and shifted focus to spending on R&D for fun games. The rest is history.

I mean, it can be simplified in this way if you ignore the ST-V (SEGA Titan Video), which was a cheap arcade board based on the Saturn hardware. It got a lot of games released for it, and in a way was kind of the 3D version of the Neo Geo MVS.

Also you have to ignore that Namco literally still made high-end arcade hardware throughout the '90s, like System 23 and Super System 23. They did have System 11 & 12 which were based on PlayStation spec, but those weren't the only arcade systems they had or provided games for. You also have to understand, the arcade market was still really big in the '90s; even when the PS1, Saturn & N64 were out, the decline was a steady but slow gradual one, and in Japan it was less severe.

If you want to talk about SEGA misappropriating funds, just look at the SEGA Gameworks venture. At least a few few dozens to hundreds of millions of dollars pumped into that, when the money could've been much more wisely invested into Saturn software development or, hell, getting a DVD-ROM drive in the Dreamcast :/

The dude figured out a way to use transparency to fade in pop in like psx games at the time.

In general though people tend to either forget or not know that the Saturn was only going for half the ps1s life and the ps1 games during that time were very similar in things like pop in and lighting. But while devs dropped Saturn ports they also developed not only better use of ps1 hardware but better techniques for 3d in general. Only a handful of late Saturn games actual showed such progress.

That's in part because most 3P did not care to learn the Saturn architecture to optimize at the assembly level their code. They had SGL 2.0, they had C, so for them that was good enough.

The Saturn was also losing lots of market share, so it didn't justify the costs to push the hardware further for 3P. We can see from homebrew today that there was still a lot of untapped potential; many commercial games didn't really use the full capabilities of VDP2 for instance, let alone the SCU DSP.

I don't think a 100% tapped-out Saturn would've gotten it to match the very best of PS1 or N64 3D, mind, but we could've gotten better results than, say, Burning Rangers or Sonic R.
 
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