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[NeverYouMind]

I'd take the saturn library hands down over n64 these days. But back then, sm64 and zelda alone made that tough. SM64 was earth-shattering.

For the indoctrinated it may have been Earth shattering but for me it was just another item in a long line of failures following Super Mario Bros. 3.

 

[Crayon]

For the indoctrinated it may have been Earth shattering but for me it was just another item in a long line of failures following Super Mario Bros. 3.

Back then, I knew one person who had tried it and felt just like you. But damn for the rest of us it was a whole new world. Tomb Raider and Crash were just starting to figure things out, and sm64 leapfrogged them completely.

The key was the level design. Nobody really had that figured out. The inspiration was there in most games that had open maps like metroid and fps games that used items to gate things and get you around, but even that was changed appreciably for SM64. Those worlds were super dense and the way the stars got more obtuse and not simply "harder" as you went along in a given world was brilliant.

Sometime in the last 30 years you must have noticed your opinion on this is an outlier!!

 

[NeverYouMind]

Back then, I knew one person who had tried it and felt just like you. But damn for the rest of us it was a whole new world. Tomb Raider and Crash were just starting to figure things out, and sm64 leapfrogged them completely.

The key was the level design. Nobody really had that figured out. The inspiration was there in most games that had open maps like metroid and fps games that used items to gate things and get you around, but even that was changed appreciably for SM64. Those worlds were super dense and the way the stars got more obtuse and not simply "harder" as you went along in a given world was brilliant.

Sometime in the last 30 years you must have noticed your opinion on this is an outlier!!

Objectively speaking those worlds are relatively barren while being too geometric and the way acquiring stars and entering new levels is segmented kills the pacing. The biggest issue though is moment to moment gameplay. Say what you will about Crash Bandicoot's level design but controls were on point. Same can be said about Banjo Kazooie though its level design was also incredible by comparison. While I can understand being blinded by the light at the time of release you need nostalgia goggles to overlook all of its flaws even a few years after.

 

[Crayon]

Objectively speaking those worlds are relatively barren while being too geometric and the way acquiring stars and entering new levels is segmented kills the pacing. The biggest issue though is moment to moment gameplay. Say what you will about Crash Bandicoot's level design but controls were on point. Same can be said about Banjo Kazooie though its level design was also incredible by comparison. While I can understand being blinded by the light at the time of release you need nostalgia goggles to overlook all of its flaws even a few years after.

I play it all the time! Well, considering how long it's been. My last time was on the 3d all stars release. It plays great. I actually think it's a little better than odyssey thanks to the levels.

Never really played banjo, though... Maybe I should catch up on that.

 

[Crayon]

the important is 1995, Arc the Lad and Namco Museum Vol. 1, Rayman and MK3 are games from 1995 as well as Astal, Golden Axe The Duel and Shinobi X. Do you realize that if Namco Museum Vol. 1 and Arc the Lad sold more than 1 million copies, would it be too much to ask for Sega's 2D games to also sell 1 million copies? On the Sega Saturn, only three games (Sega Rally, Daytona, and VF2) outsold Sonic 3D Blast, a game that sold 700,000 copies.

3d blast was the 4th best seller? No fucking way!

That shows as well as anything what a miss it was to not have a real 3d Sonic inside the first year. Damn.

Thanks to this thread I was in Sonic jam last night and running through the challenges in Sonic world. That this is like 1/3rd of the way there. Nights is another third and Idk what the other third is. I'm trying.

 

[Team Andromeda]

I'm pretty sure going early was SOJ's idea, not SOA's. If you have irrefutable proof that it was on SOA, then I'll accept that. However, I have seen quotes from Tom saying they did not have much confidence in Saturn for the West, and did not want to launch in May because the software wasn't ready.

Which checks out with the state of early Saturn releases from May to September, as barely any new games rolled out at the time, and titles like VF & Daytona were very buggy. SEGA were not ready for a September launch but the Japanese side did not care either way: they wanted a repeat of the Japanese launch and were growing worried about PS hype momentum in the West.



PS2 was only more expensive than Dreamcast and GameCube; it was cheaper than OG Xbox because that required a $30 remote sold separately to enable DVD movie playback. There's no evidence OG Xbox was easier to work on than PS2 and I'd argue the lack of 3P support compared to PS2 suggests it wasn't monumentally easier. It was simply more familiar to PC devs like Bethesda already used to x86 architecture and had been making games on that for over a decade.

To many devs not from the PC scene, OG Xbox was just as esoteric to them as the PS2 seemed to various Western devs. Which is kind of another thing: most of the complaints PS2 was hard to develop for came from Western studios. They weren't used to programming in the same manner Japanese devs were; some Japanese devs even loved the Saturn and considered it easy to develop for, so the same applied with some of them towards PS2.

You're overselling the OG Xbox; it wasn't all-around more powerful than PS2, GameCube or even the Dreamcast in some areas, and I mentioned some of those earlier. The 64 MB RAM and 8 GB HDD really helped it in performance areas though. Its exclusive sports games meant shit for the American market because none of them gained traction compared to Madden, the 2K games, FIFA etc. all of which were on PS2 and where PS2 was the target platform. Halo was a strong launch game but so was Super Mario 64 and in both cases the respective systems lost a lot of steam shortly after launch because they couldn't match the variety & breadth of games on Sony's consoles.

Also the RenderWare engine helped make multiplatform support a lot easier that gen and many devs used it, even some Japanese one. So that mitigated many of the dev challenges on PS2 for devs until they got to learn the architecture better, so they could target more low-level optimizations.



Yes.



Panzer Dragoon was a very arcade-style game so even if it wasn't first released in arcades, it came off as an arcade title. And like many of SEGA's arcade ports to Saturn that gen, ran into the problem of too little content for the price. If you played a game like Panzer Dragoon at a demo kiosk back in the day you basically got the full taste of the game in 5-10 minutes.

Sure you could master mechanics to increase score and get perfect runs but that as an appealing factor was starting to fall out of favor with gamers around the time. The reason why SEGA's arcade ports didn't do much for Saturn in the West (in Japan VF definitely did but it's prob also no coincidence that Saturn sales fell off hard there once the VF games started drying up with no Saturn port of VF3, while PS was getting stuff like Tekken 2, 3, Bushido Blade, Tobal No 2 etc.), is because they lacked sufficient amount of new content for home release.

Compare that to even early Namco arcade ports like Ridge Racer, Tekken, or even Cyber Sled which were stuffed with a lot of cool new additions just for the home ports, plus those games just had a style to them that was more appealing to Western players than SEGA's comparable titles like VF. Although, Daytona had a lot of style and was a juggernaut in arcades during the '90s, so the Saturn port SHOULD have been a major deal.

But oh if only SEGA didn't completely bungle the first impressions with a bad port short on any new content!

You act like in September of 1995 SEGA America had loads of Saturn games ready, it clear they didn't and so it's clear that even without the rushed launched, it wasn't much better in terms of software from SOA in September of 1995 on Saturn, but I will agree we'll never be able to prove 100% who came up with the date

Your point about Panzer Dragoon is just a little silly, Mario Bros is held up as classic, and genre defining game wasn't based on an Arcade game?. The fact was PD was made as console game as SEGA Japan spending the most money it had ever spend on a title be that in the Arcade or home. Many early PS and Saturn games could be finished in a day and it took until Resident Evil and the likes of Tomb Raider before games had real depth, it was how people knocked the systems early in and help up how much more depth was in Yoshi Island on the Snes . I remember one of the boys in the import shop almost finishing Jumping Flash on his 1st go. It didn't matter as we were all blown away with the gfx and it was giving you the player an experience well beyond what the 16-bit games could, and that was true for Panzer Dragoon.

And you want to compare?

Show me a PS2 USA launch Platform game that had the depth and variety of Sonic Adv on the DC. A PS2 USA launch fighter that had the depth and single player mode of Soul Calibur on DC or what about a SONY NFL title that came out just after the USA launch of the PS2 that had the depth of NFL 2K. Oh that's right, SONY didn't even bother, did it matter? Only when it when people want to bash the Saturn, more like


And you want a little bit of developer talk on making games for the system. Here a small sample from developers that have nothing at all to do with Bethesda, not that they were even a prolific OG Xbox developer...

 

[Team Andromeda]

It all comes down games, great games.

PS2 had more great games than Xbox. They saw Halo on Xbox at launch, then saw GTA3, MGS2, Devil May Cry and Gran Turismo 3 on PS2. 4 great games to 1, no contest.

Great games Huh.

Where your comeback falls down is comparing the USA DC launch line up to that of the PS2. A non contest if ever there was one


And since you always like to bring up Tomb Raider on the Saturn ALL THE TIME.. . Remind me again, about Tomb Raider on the PS2 wasn't it a broken mess of a game? Almost unplayable compared to the Saturn game and where it almost killed the IP and well it helped to kill CORE Design and unlike the Saturn game, that wasn't even rushed out, but delayed for over 8 months and it was still crap

 

[RetroGamingUK]

3d blast was the 4th best seller? No fucking way!

That shows as well as anything what a miss it was to not have a real 3d Sonic inside the first year. Damn.

Thanks to this thread I was in Sonic jam last night and running through the challenges in Sonic world. That this is like 1/3rd of the way there. Nights is another third and Idk what the other third is. I'm trying.

It proves my point

The game was bang average even on the MegaDrive, but people like myself who'd ben swayed towards Saturn on the promise of 3D Sonic were desperate by that point. Just imagine how well a full game based on Sonic Jam's Sonic World would have sold.

Personally, I like to think it sold for the Richard Jacques soundtrack alone...

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Great games Huh.

Where your comeback fall about is comparing the USA DC launch line up to that of the PS2. A non contest if ever there was one


And since you always like to bring up Tomb Raider on the Saturn. Remind me again of Tomb Raider on the PS2 wasn't it a broken mess of a game almost unplayable compared to the Saturn game and where it almost killed the IP and well it helped to kill CORE Design and unlike the Saturn game that wasn't even rushed out, but delayed for 8 months and it was still crap

You focus way too much on the day 1 lineup.

PS2 sold in droves due to the below.

People expected plenty of games of this calibre based on their experience from PS1, and their purchase was validated in little under a year.

 

[Team Andromeda]

You focus way too much on the day 1 lineup.

PS2 sold in droves due to the below.

People expected plenty of this calibre based on their experience from PS1, and their purchase was validated in little under a year.

If they were USA launch titles you might have had a point, but never mind

 

[RetroGamingUK]

If they were USA launch titles you might have had a point, but never mind

Sony promised PS1 favourites taken to the next level would come to PS2 from the outset, and they delivered.

Dreamcast's launch lineup was stellar, and it was great to see sequels to Saturn favourites like Virtua Fighter and Sega Rally, but to most people these were alien franchises that failed to excite the masses.

Fully enough 2 of the top 4 best selling Dreamcast games in the US; SoulCalibur and Code Veronica were sequels to games that started life on PlayStation, those games actually did sway some PlayStation owners. They were also rare examples of third parties pushing the boat out and delivering true next-gen experiences on Dreamcast.

 

[Ozzie666]

You focus way too much on the day 1 lineup.

PS2 sold in droves due to the below.

People expected plenty of games of this calibre based on their experience from PS1, and their purchase was validated in little under a year.

I don't disagree with the above, it's a pretty amazing slate and was a death blow. I think what people seem to forget (not you) but others. PS2 was a juggernaut because it came off the trust and momentum of the PS1. SNES did extremely well because of the NES. Meanwhile Sega was fighting against and recovering from the damaged cause by Sega CD and Sega 32X (loved them both myself) steamrolled into the Saturn. Gamecube suffered from the N64. Xbox Series X from the Xbox One.

Previous generations mattered, not matter the launch line-up or the 20001 onslaught. Consumer confidence is important. Sega pissed any Genesis/Megadrive clout they had.

Obviously all these situations are made worse or better based on company decisions. Poor hardware, complicated hardware, cartridges, mini discs. Basically self inflicted wounds.

To overcome these pit falls you need to do something amazing. WII was a game changer, Switch was a game changer. PS3 to PS4, helped by that back half of the PS3, saved by Sony.

Sega has never been able to right the sinking ship after any disasters, they were pretty suborn and over confident. Part of me thinks that was because they had their Arcade and Amusement business doing so well into the mid to late 90's.

Megadrive might be the only close case to a rebound, but even that was smoke and mirrors. UK performance well deserved and more trust worthy. American success, who can tell due to the stock in warehouses.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Sony promised PS1 favourites taken to the next level would come to PS2 from the outset, and they delivered.

Moving the goal posts yet again *rollseyes*

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I don't disagree with the above, it's a pretty amazing slate and was a death blow. I think what people seem to forget (not you) but others. PS2 was a juggernaut because it came off the trust and momentum of the PS1. SNES did extremely well because of the NES. Meanwhile Sega was fighting against and recovering from the damaged cause by Sega CD and Sega 32X (loved them both myself) steamrolled into the Saturn. Gamecube suffered from the N64. Xbox Series X from the Xbox One.

Previous generations mattered, not matter the launch line-up or the 20001 onslaught. Consumer confidence is important. Sega pissed any Genesis/Megadrive clout they had.

Everyone at the time told me they had no interest in buying a Dreamcast because they had a habit of abandoning consoles early, where as they trusted Sony and were proven right on both counts (apart from Vita).

I wonder how many Dreamcast units and games would have need to have been sold to stave off that January 2001 termination?

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Moving the goal posts yet again *rollseyes*

You miss the point.

People don't just buy games based on what's available at the time, but what's either confirmed or expected down the road.

I've not moved any goalposts here, you're bemoaning why people didn't buy Dreamcast despite the great launch lineup and I'm explaining (from personal experience) why the masses didn't go for it.

 

[Team Andromeda]

You miss the point.

People don't just buy games based on what's available at the time, but what's either confirmed or expected down the road.

I've not moved any goalposts here, you're bemoaning why people didn't buy Dreamcast despite the great launch lineup and I'm explaining (from personal experience) why the masses didn't go for it.

The point is you're like to bate people only look to move the goal posts when people hit back with a counter.

The USA launch line up of the DC was far better to that of the PS2

 

[RetroGamingUK]

The point is you're like to bate people only more to move the goal posts when people hit back.

The USA launch line up of the DC was far better to that of the PS2

Completely agree, 100%

Even at the time I'm sat playing Shenmue, MSR and Jet Set Radio wondering what the fuss was about.

I'm guessing (in the UK) apart from Tekken Tag, SSX and FIFA that lineup flopped horrendously and people just wanted to get one early in anticipation of the likes of Gran Turismo 3.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Completely agree, 100%

Even at the time I'm sat playing Shenmue, MSR and Jet Set Radio wondering what the fuss was about.

I'm guessing (in the UK) apart from Tekken Tag, SSX and FIFA that lineup flopped horrendously and people just wanted to get one early in anticipation of the likes of Gran Turismo 3.

I didn't like the 1st Shenmue myself and it wasn't a USA launch title or even close to it. My point is you can have the best launch games, the highest number of launch games, be the cheapest launch system or the system that's the easiest to developer on. It doesn't always mean you'll win or even sell that well.

To this day I can't understand why the Vita never took off or why the 360 sold as well as it did early in. When the 360 launch line up was pretty dire

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I didn't like the 1st Shenmue myself and it wasn't a USA launch title or even close to it. My point is you can have the best launch games, the highest number of launch games, be the cheapest launch system or the system that's the easiest to developer on. It doesn't always mean you'll win or even sell that well.

To this day I can't understand why the Vita never took off or why the 360 sold as well as it did early in. When the 360 launch line up was pretty dire

For me it was the promise of more Halo, I was always going to buy the next Xbox and PlayStation as I'd done the previous generation.

They managed to take a lot of long time PlayStation customers as that $599 certainly had consumers shopping around.

OK they were leaving Gran Turismo, Metal Gear and God of War behind, but Microsoft managed to get GTA, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, Devil May Cry and Tekken to come over. They weren't there at launch, but they were announced early on which got people excited.

Then there's awesome looking full or timed exclusives like Gears of War, Mass Effect and Bioshock. Again, not there early on, but people know they're coming.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Sega has never been able to right the sinking ship after any disasters, they were pretty suborn and over confident. Part of me thinks that was because they had their Arcade and Amusement business doing so well into the mid to late 90's.

I wonder if they could see the collapse coming in America and Europe, or whether they were looking at things from their Japanese bubble.

In 2000 all 3 dedicated arcades in my town switched the gambling machines, leaving only our chain bowling alley as the sole remaining place to play arcade games.

They've actually seen a resurgence in the UK as retro gaming themed bars for adults, doubt Sega make a penny off them though.

 

[Crayon]

Beating the ps2 launch lineup is not hard...

 

[Team Andromeda]

For me it was the promise of more Halo, I was always going to buy the next Xbox and PlayStation as I'd done the previous generation.

They managed to take a lot of long time PlayStation customers as that $599 certainly had consumers shopping around.

OK they were leaving Gran Turismo, Metal Gear and God of War behind, but Microsoft managed to get GTA, Final Fantasy, Resident Evil, Devil May Cry and Tekken to come over. They weren't there at launch, but they were announced early on which got people excited.

Then there's awesome looking full or timed exclusives like Gears of War, Mass Effect and Bioshock. Again, not there early on, but people know they're coming.

Xbox got GTA on the OG Xbox and I'll properly go out in a limb and say the OG Xbox had the better Japanese exclusives, but that's subjective
What isn't for me was how poor the Xbox 360 launch line was, and I'll go out on one and say the launch titles of Xbox One were much better in contrast and up against the PS4 too

There again I was over the moon with my Japanese DC with VF3 and Pen Pen

 

[Kyo]

Outside of Japan, Sega dropped the Saturn so hard in anticipation of the DC launch that they didn't even bother bringing over games that had already been developed: Deep Fear didn't make it to the US, Shining Force III only had the first episode translated, standout 3rd party titles like X-Men vs Street Fighter and Grandia didn't make it to the US and Europe.

I'm sure this all made sense to them on a spreadsheet. But they were being delusional that people wouldn't take note of this behavior when deciding which next-gen platform was more likely to have longterm support.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Outside of Japan, Sega dropped the Saturn so hard in anticipation of the DC launch that they didn't even bother bringing over games that had already been developed: Deep Fear didn't make it to the US, Shining Force III only had the first episode translated, standout 3rd party titles like X-Men vs Street Fighter and Grandia didn't make it to the US and Europe.

I'm sure this all made sense to them on a spreadsheet. But they were being delusional that people wouldn't take note of this behavior when deciding which next-gen platform was more likely to have longterm support.

We got Deep Fear in September 1998 and for the next 12 months anyone who didn't follow gaming news likely would have thought Sega had probably gone bust or something.

Not a good image to have zero retail presence for over a year, it didn't inspire confidence.

 

[Team Andromeda]

We got Deep Fear in September 1998 and for the next 12 months anyone who didn't follow gaming news likely would have thought Sega had probably gone bust or something.

Not a good image to have zero retail presence for over a year, it didn't inspire confidence.

It's nice too 100% on something, which is why Bernie plan was stupid and silly and to make matters worse he pissed off WD too

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

I think what people seem to forget (not you) but others. PS2 was a juggernaut because it came off the trust and momentum of the PS1. SNES did extremely well because of the NES. Meanwhile Sega was fighting against and recovering from the damaged cause by Sega CD and Sega 32X (loved them both myself) steamrolled into the Saturn. Gamecube suffered from the N64. Xbox Series X from the Xbox One.

Previous generations mattered, not matter the launch line-up or the 2001 onslaught. Consumer confidence is important. Sega pissed any Genesis/Megadrive clout they had.

Previous generations mattered
Sega didn't think long-term they made six Sonic games in four years, three Streets of Rage games in four years. Compare that to Nintendo one Zelda game and two Mario games on the SNES. You can't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Result: Streets of Rage 3 was a flop, Sonic 3 sold less than Sonic 2. So Sega created new IPs from scratch, Sega went back to the past, a company looking for customers, Dreamcast ? the same thing again: a company looking for customers.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

To this day I can't understand why the 360 sold as well as it did early in. When the 360 launch line up was pretty dire

Xbox Live is the answer ( this created a smooth transition from xbox to xbox 360) but the release of seven true nextgen games in the first 14 months had an impact.

The Dreamcast is roughly like an Xbox 360; let's compare the timeline.

September 1999

Soul Calibur, Sonic, and NFL 2K were good at launch a next-gen experience.

September 1999



in early 2000, Crazy taxi and Resident Evil was released

in early 2000 PS2 was released

June 2000, the Utopia boot disc was released.

October 2000 PS2 was released

So, the holiday games (Quake 3, Sega GT, JSR, Test Drive Le Mans, Draconus, Ecco the Dolphin, and Shenmue) didn't sell well and Dreamcast died.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Show me a PS2 USA launch Platform game that had the depth and variety of Sonic Adv on the DC. A PS2 USA launch fighter that had the depth and single player mode of Soul Calibur on DC or what about a SONY NFL title that came out just after the USA launch of the PS2 that had the depth of NFL 2K. Oh that's right, SONY didn't even bother, did it matter?

Tekken Tag Tournament > Soul Calibur
Madden 2001 == NFL 2K

As far as Sonic Adventure, its variety was a detriment. Who bought a Sonic game to play mediocre pinball, fish, have on-rails dogfights, or do car racing. The PS2 had bigger game variety with more curated experiences.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Xbox Live is the answer ( this created a smooth transition from xbox to xbox 360) but the release of seven true nextgen games in the first 14 months had an impact.

The Dreamcast is roughly like an Xbox 360; let's compare the timeline.

September 1999

Soul Calibur, Sonic, and NFL 2K were good at launch a next-gen experience.

September 1999



in early 2000, Crazy taxi and Resident Evil was released

in early 2000 PS2 was released

June 2000, the Utopia boot disc was released.

October 2000 PS2 was released

So, the holiday games (Quake 3, Sega GT, JSR, Test Drive Le Mans, Draconus, Ecco the Dolphin, and Shenmue) didn't sell well and Dreamcast died.

Not interested in your wind up drivel sorry

 

[U n i o n 0015]

Tekken Tag Tournament > Soul Calibur
Madden 2001 == NFL 2K

Did you hit the crackpipe this morning??

 

[nush]

We got Deep Fear in September 1998 and for the next 12 months anyone who didn't follow gaming news likely would have thought Sega had probably gone bust or something.

Not a good image to have zero retail presence for over a year, it didn't inspire confidence.

Saturn was basically dead by late 97 in the UK, I worked for a game shop that was the #2 store in the chain and day one by that point we only ever got shipped 2-3 copies of new release Saturn games. I brought one of those and maybe we might get another 2 on restock but that was it.

It was already dead and nothing released was going to ever move the needle, and then Panzer Dragoon Saga happened. Sega actually had to make a second print run for that title (in Europe) becuse the demand was there.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

Did you hit the crackpipe this morning??

he's right
Tekken Tag Tournament > Soul Calibur
tekken is big IP

 

[U n i o n 0015]

Tekken Tag Tournament > Soul Calibur
tekken is big IP

Oh I know that Tekken is the bigger IP, but TTT was a pretty mediocre extension of Tekken 3 and Soul Calibur was a massive improvement over the original.

Even contemporary reviews of the time put SC > TTT.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Saturn was basically dead by late 97 in the UK, I worked for a game shop that was the #2 store in the chain and day one by that point we only ever got shipped 2-3 copies of new release Saturn games. I brought one of those and maybe we might get another 2 on restock but that was it.

It was already dead and nothing released was going to ever move the needle, and then Panzer Dragoon Saga happened. Sega actually had to make a second print run for that title (in Europe) becuse the demand was there.

Sega's first party lineup in 1997 was just meh, not much worth buying the console for compared to 1997.

Really disappointing year as an owner.

 

[nush]

Sega's first party lineup in 1997 was just meh, not much worth buying the console for compared to 1997.

Really disappointing year as an owner.

I'd gone back to importing then, I usually only imported for new consoles. Good times.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Oh I know that Tekken is the bigger IP, but TTT was a pretty mediocre extension of Tekken 3 and Soul Calibur was a massive improvement over the original.

Even contemporary reviews of the time put SC > TTT.

They were wrong. Tekken Tag Tournament has better balancing, bigger roster, better move sets, better visuals, more responsive controls, and better mechanics. It is the peak of everything Tekken before they started adding dumb mechanics on top. Soul Calibur in contrast is just a stepping stone to Soul Calibur II. It even lacked the epicness of Soul Edge as the sound design and final boss were lame.

 

[cireza]

Sega's first party lineup in 1997 was just meh, not much worth buying the console for compared to 1997.

Quick look at what we got in PAL land from SEGA this "meh-ish" year lol :

Forgot Three Dirty Dwarves !

And this is not really extending to all the published games (Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Bomberman, Jurassic Park etc...), and not even talking about the awesome third party games that were released this year (Hexen, Marvel Super Heroes, Wipeout 2097, Resident Evil, KOF95, Pandemonium, Worms...)

In the real world, 1997 was loaded with awesome games and it was impossible to keep up.

Anybody unhappy with 1997 on Saturn either hates video-games, or is pushing a narrative.

 

[Crayon]

Few drinks last nite and it seems I copied crusher's tag straight into the controversial opinions thread lol.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

Tekken Tag Tournament has better balancing, bigger roster, better move sets, better visuals, more responsive controls, and better mechanics. It is the peak of everything Tekken before they started adding dumb mechanics on top. Soul Calibur in contrast is just a stepping stone to Soul Calibur II. It even lacked the epicness of Soul Edge as the sound design and final boss were lame.

soul caliber is more fun.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

They were wrong. Tekken Tag Tournament has better balancing, bigger roster, better move sets, better visuals, more responsive controls, and better mechanics. It is the peak of everything Tekken before they started adding dumb mechanics on top. Soul Calibur in contrast is just a stepping stone to Soul Calibur II. It even lacked the epicness of Soul Edge as the sound design and final boss were lame.

SoulCalibur had 60Hz in Europe though, Tekken Tag did not

Both certified bangers though, Namco's fighters at their peak. Dreamcast and PS2 owners couldn't go wrong with either.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Never owned Soul Edge/Blade or Soul Calibur. Rented both. Owned PS1, but rented DC a few times.

I found Namco's bladed games to be really fun at the beginning since it has weapons and crazy fighters. But really easy.

In Soul Edge, I literally used the barbarian guy spamming his two handed block/push attack to win all matches. cpu couldnt figure out what to do.

In SC, I'd take random fighter x and just spam long range attacks as much as possible and it was effective too. Lots of ring outs as well. In these games, the cpu has problems defending by being pushed around to the edges of the play area. Maybe newer SC games they are smarter, but not those old games.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Never owned Soul Edge/Blade or Soul Calibur. Rented both. Owned PS1, but rented DC a few times.

I found Namco's bladed games to be really fun at the beginning since it has weapons and crazy fighters. But really easy.

In Soul Edge, I literally used the barbarian guy spamming his two handed block/push attack to win all matches. cpu couldnt figure out what to do.

In SC, I'd take random fighter x and just spam long range attacks as much as possible and it was effective too. Lots of ring outs as well. In these games, the cpu has problems defending by being pushed around to the edges of the play area. Maybe newer SC games they are smarter, but not those old games.

Incredible soundtrack on the first 2 games…

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Incredible soundtrack on the first 2 games…

Totally. On a related note since people are talking Tekken, I always thought Tekken 2 OST is among the best Ive heard in gaming. And coming from a fighting game of all games.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Totally. On a related note since people are talking Tekken, I always thought Tekken 2 OST is among the best Ive heard in gaming. And coming from a fighting game of all games.

I found Tekken 2 to feel clunky and look technically unimpressive.

Absolutely fucking love the art style and soundtrack though. It's such a "vibe" game.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

Never owned Soul Edge/Blade or Soul Calibur. Rented both. Owned PS1, but rented DC a few times.

I found Namco's bladed games to be really fun at the beginning since it has weapons and crazy fighters. But really easy.

In Soul Edge, I literally used the barbarian guy spamming his two handed block/push attack to win all matches. cpu couldnt figure out what to do.

In SC, I'd take random fighter x and just spam long range attacks as much as possible and it was effective too. Lots of ring outs as well. In these games, the cpu has problems defending by being pushed around to the edges of the play area. Maybe newer SC games they are smarter, but not those old games.

best played against a friend

pissed off button mashing produces some surprising results

 

[RetroGamingUK]

best played against a friend

pissed off button mashing produces some surprising results

My mum beat me on SoulCalibur in front of my friends and I was really trying.

Fuck it, SoulCalibur has now dropped to being a 9/10.

 

[NeverYouMind]

Incredible soundtrack on the first 2 games…

Soul Edge's soundtrack hits hard.



Meanwhile, Soul Calibur has crap like this:

 

[RoboFu]

Quick look at what we got in PAL land from SEGA this "meh-ish" year lol :

Forgot Three Dirty Dwarves !

And this is not really extending to all the published games (Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, Bomberman, Jurassic Park etc...), and not even talking about the awesome third party games that were released this year (Hexen, Marvel Super Heroes, Wipeout 2097, Resident Evil, KOF95, Pandemonium, Worms...)

In the real world, 1997 was loaded with awesome games and it was impossible to keep up.

Anybody unhappy with 1997 on Saturn either hates video-games, or is pushing a narrative.

People shit on touring car but I really like it. it's just so different from everything else.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

People shit on touring car but I really like it. it's just so different from everything else.

It's the reason I sold my Saturn, disgraceful "follow-up to Sega Rally"

 

[cireza]

It's the reason I sold my Saturn, disgraceful "follow-up to Sega Rally"

It's not like it was the only game released in 1997. This year had the best 3D Fighter of the console, the best BTA from the generation, Dragon Force which is an absolutely legendary title and that's only 3 games of the list.

But according to your expert opinion, it was a "meh" year lol.