Support NeoGAF

[Men_in_Boxes]

Any of these had 30k players during their first month?

No, but I don't expect Marathon to become a top 10 most played game on Steam. What your homework should have showed you is that all successful games build player bases up over time.

You went from "I can't think of one" to seeing 10/10 of the most popular games grow their player base. A truly unreal level of learning.

Edit: Actually, Rust was averaging 10k - 15k initially and is more hardcore than Marathon. I guess Marathon does have a chance.

You can fool yourself all you want, but the game will be dead in less than 2 years from now.

It's possible. It's also possible the Marathon team stabilizes and grows the player base in 2 years. The games bones are good.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

You can think this. I'd argue the opposite. I think Marathon is way more attractive than Destiny.

That said, you were never really the target demo for Marathon. If ARC Raiders didn't pull you in, I'm not sure how valid your feedback can possibly be. Marathon needs to attract the people who stopped playing and the people who were on the fence...not so much those who are allergic to the extraction genre.

I think you're vastly in the minority on its looks, it's just hideous but again that's simply subjective.

And I totally agree it wasn't for me which is fine also, but it's a weird spot to be in that a game I loved and sunk countless hours was the sacrificial lamb to get this game so it's why I have a vendetta against it really as I think many thousands others as well given destiny's popularity

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I think you're vastly in the minority on its looks, it's just hideous but again that's simply subjective.

And I totally agree it wasn't for me which is fine also, but it's a weird spot to be in that a game I loved and sunk countless hours was the sacrificial lamb to get this game so it's why I have a vendetta against it really as I think many thousands others as well given destiny's popularity

Destiny 2 wasn't sacrificed for Marathon. Destiny 2 has always had a massive team working on it. If you think it died because 500 employees were some kind of skeleton crew, then it needed to die regardless.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

Destiny 2 wasn't sacrificed for Marathon. Destiny 2 has always had a massive team working on it. If you think it died because 500 employees were some kind of skeleton crew, then it needed to die regardless.

It was absolutely known that a portion of that games pvp team was taken off for marathon. I was born but it wasn't yesterday, this was a talking point years back that the game took a backseat from being full on and it was over marathon.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

It was absolutely known that a portion of that games pvp team was taken off for marathon. I was born but it wasn't yesterday, this was a talking point years back that the game took a backseat from being full on and it was over marathon.

It never seemed like PvP Destiny was ever in a good spot. PvE has always been the main draw for that game.

 

[Hollywood Hitman]

It never seemed like PvP Destiny was ever in a good spot. PvE has always been the main draw for that game.

Nah the whole concept was being they came directly from halo as a monster pvp game to destiny where you take the loot into pvp... It was the driving force because the pve realm hadn't been fully established or realized yet. Pve was absolutely a huge part but so was pvp.

The only people that constantly made pvp look in a bad light was the nonstop whiney steamers. Pvp in that game is still one of a kind due to it's chaotic nature. There was nothing like it and still nothing like it. The d1 years were amazing for pvp, crucible was banging, trials, banner, it was all fucking awesome and I feel bad for anyone that didn't experience it

D2 started bad, got better then got ditched for marathon and pvpers thinned out including myself. Sure I played the pve alot but I spent thousands of hours taking my shit into pvp which is what made that game special.

Bungie ruined it and have nothing to show for it

 

[cormack12]

Is it worth saving is the more pertinent question. Its flopped on consoles and can't take any market share from established PC games. Do Sony really want a predominant PC game? Doubts.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Is it worth saving is the more pertinent question. Its flopped on consoles and can't take any market share from established PC games. Do Sony really want a predominant PC game? Doubts.

Waaaay cheaper to save a game (if it can be saved) than it is to scrap it and start anew. I'd argue it's worth putting another 6 - 12 months of full development into before they can safely call it.

 

[Kokoloko85]

Yea it's definitely subjective, like I said I'm the same I love from games and platinumed a handful but finished them all, love pvp in so many formats been to the lighthouse many many times in destiny for trials, solod my Lunas howl and not forgotten etc.. I like sweaty but I don't seek it out meaning if it's there in a game I love I'll handle it but I don't seek out 24/7... I don't fun from difficult stuff but I don't need it to enjoy myself.

So for me I hate the look of marathon and I hate extraction, two things that are a total kill for me ultimately. I absolutely love bungies gun mechanics and i will give them that, but it's not enough to carry me anymore it's why I quit destiny it all got stale and their lack of pvp updates, maps etc was so bad I had to finally roll out.

I tried arc and if I were to play extraction it'd be that but even then I come to realize I hate extraction, I just don't like the loop for it one bit so it'll forever be something I don't seek. But it's bungie so I was automatically interested, if this was another dev team I wouldn't even give it any attention at all.

The only thing that could motivste me is adding modes like TDM or domination etc give me a place to take my gear without the constant idea of losing it. I just personally hate the concept of extraction it really boils down to that, bad gameplay loop imo

Edit : and to note I gave bungie about 7 to 8k hours since 2014, was dedicated beyond words.. So it's why I'm a bit bitter with bungie basically letting destiny 2 die for this game.

Thats fair enough, that extraction loop isnt for you, and its not for most. For me it was the bungie gunplay that won me over for the genre, otherwise yes, I wouldnt stick around for long unless gameplay and lore/setting wasnt for me.

Only thing I'd say is, I dont see this as why Destiny 2 is where it is. They said Marathon is gonna be their take on extraction shooters and was a smaller team supposedly. Not replacing Destiny.

I felt like D2 Final Shape was a good finale, and they should of just said we're working on D3 now, give us some time, while they carried on releasing the 2025 stuff. Destiny was meant to be a 10 year project, but Im glad it did more and I think with D3 with will do well. If they take all the experieces they've learnt and use it.

Personally Im looking forward to after D3, and want them to do a new SP player FPS game. With traditional PVP. Thats got to happen at some point or another lifetime lol

 

[Guardian Monkey]

Nah the whole concept was being they came directly from halo as a monster pvp game to destiny where you take the loot into pvp... It was the driving force because the pve realm hadn't been fully established or realized yet. Pve was absolutely a huge part but so was pvp.

The only people that constantly made pvp look in a bad light was the nonstop whiney steamers. Pvp in that game is still one of a kind due to it's chaotic nature. There was nothing like it and still nothing like it. The d1 years were amazing for pvp, crucible was banging, trials, banner, it was all fucking awesome and I feel bad for anyone that didn't experience it

D2 started bad, got better then got ditched for marathon and pvpers thinned out including myself. Sure I played the pve alot but I spent thousands of hours taking my shit into pvp which is what made that game special.

Bungie ruined it and have nothing to show for it

This is better than D1/2 pvp,imo. Your basically taking away the whole grind and keep and keeping the loot cycle fresh and combining pve/pvp to one mode. No, having to nerf guns for one mode vs the other etc. Its great, I cant answer why you think it looks bad, because its far and away the best looking thing they have done to me.

Now I can agree they let PVP slide in d2, but so did they on PVE, the last few years were reused everything beside what they threw in the new campaigns/raids/and dungeons and even some of that was reused. But they couldnt really sell content for d2 without some pve each cycle. Either way they were scraping along until the game just fell apart due to a confluence of gamer fatigue espically with the story mainly ending and rewriting the game over and over.

 

[cormack12]

Waaaay cheaper to save a game (if it can be saved) than it is to scrap it and start anew. I'd argue it's worth putting another 6 - 12 months of full development into before they can safely call it.

 

[playbignbox]

The only way to "save" it is by making the game more accessible to casual players.

 

[Fess]

if they had a campaign then more people might play it

Yes and that's it. Focusing entirely on multiplayer means means the game will flop completely if there isn't enough players holding the whole concept together.

 

[clarky]

Yes and that's it. Focusing entirely on multiplayer means means the game will flop completely if there isn't enough players holding the whole concept together.

Plenty of games that are multiplayer only are successful, see Arc Raiders. Not having a campaign isnt the reason it isn't doing well like i said earlier, but i acknowledge it would have helped out.

Having a Halo type campaign would have basically doubled the already stupid budget and also put them in direct competition with themselves with Destiny.

Its a niche genre and they went in hard. The opposite of Arc Basically.

 

[Harlock]

Put bikini skins with big tits.

 

[Edgelord79]

There's been questions as to what the minimum CCU is for this game to stay alive

sony doesnt need to come out and say that they'll take the game offline if the CCU drops below a certain point but that's common sense

I'm curious what people think the bare minimum CCU needed is to keep this game online

It's not free to run and is yet to be profitable

I don't know. Maybe 46,436?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Interesting poll results...

The Bunny Hill PvE map and Jaws warning system for high kill players are the leading answers. You guys might be redeemable after all.

Nobody voted for DBNO shields which makes you all suspect. 3v2 instant knocks are currently a problem in this game. Giving the team down a man a small advantage would lessen that issue. A net positive if ever there was one.

 

[Fess]

Plenty of games that are multiplayer only are successful, see Arc Raiders. Not having a campaign isnt the reason it isn't doing well like i said earlier, but i acknowledge it would have helped out.

Having a Halo type campaign would have basically doubled the already stupid budget and also put them in direct competition with themselves with Destiny.

Its a niche genre and they went in hard. The opposite of Arc Basically.

It's a too niche game in a too competitive spot in the market.
I think a sp campaign would broaden the appeal and pull more people in.
You think they should keep it niche and tweak details. I don't think that would work.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

Marathon is going to be Marathon. Changing it too much to be a different game, where have we seen Bungie do that before...

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

It's a too niche game in a too competitive spot in the market.
I think a sp campaign would broaden the appeal and pull more people in.
You think they should keep it niche and tweak details. I don't think that would work.

The traditional FPS single player game is dead for a reason. It's not realistic for the Marathon team to shoot for Cyberpunk 2077 type scope.

If Marathon sticks around long term it will be because they figured out how to appeal to more PvP players. PvE players aren't going to save it.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I think the game can be broken down into four core aspects

1. Exploring (understanding the map) and looting/finding special items....empty and sterile
2. Solving puzzles...open doors.
3. Fighting AI enemies....Dumb as fuck. Strategy=ZERO. (unload the magazine and move to the next)
.
.
.
4. PvP. to spice things up

75% of the game is MID as Fuck. And the last 25% is very narrow.

Even if the game plays well. The biggest issue is that the overall product feels like a vertical slice devoid of actual depth and real challenge.


Your "suggestions" are just a sign of desperation.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

"In studies of juvenile rat rough-and-tumble play (often called play fighting or wrestling), pioneered by neuroscientist Jaak Panksepp and extended by researchers like the Pellis lab, pairs of rats compete to pin each other on their backs while targeting the nape of the neck.

A dominant (usually larger) rat can easily win nearly every bout by pinning the smaller one. To sustain playful engagement and prevent the interaction from turning one-sided, the bigger rat self-handicaps by allowing the smaller rat to achieve a pin or role reversal roughly 30% of the time (i.e., the dominant pins about 70%).

Pinning frequency serves as the main measurable index of play dominance and reciprocity in controlled lab settings, often after brief social isolation to heighten motivation. If the dominant rat wins too consistently without enough reciprocity, the smaller rat stops initiating play and avoids that partner, preferring same-sized opponents.

This pattern highlights how play blends competition with cooperation to build social skills, and it emerges reliably in observations of developing rats. The behavior underscores the importance of fairness-like reciprocity for maintaining positive social bonds."

 

[Guilty_AI]

"In studies of juvenile rat rough-and-tumble play (often called play fighting or wrestling), pioneered by neuroscientist Jaak Panksepp and extended by researchers like the Pellis lab, pairs of rats compete to pin each other on their backs while targeting the nape of the neck.

A dominant (usually larger) rat can easily win nearly every bout by pinning the smaller one. To sustain playful engagement and prevent the interaction from turning one-sided, the bigger rat self-handicaps by allowing the smaller rat to achieve a pin or role reversal roughly 30% of the time (i.e., the dominant pins about 70%).

Pinning frequency serves as the main measurable index of play dominance and reciprocity in controlled lab settings, often after brief social isolation to heighten motivation. If the dominant rat wins too consistently without enough reciprocity, the smaller rat stops initiating play and avoids that partner, preferring same-sized opponents.

This pattern highlights how play blends competition with cooperation to build social skills, and it emerges reliably in observations of developing rats. The behavior underscores the importance of fairness-like reciprocity for maintaining positive social bonds."

Now give those rats internet access and watch the whole study go up in flames

 

[OuterLimits]

They should not deviate from there vision just to "save it".

Let it be a niche game and work on something new that will sell a ton if thats what they want.

So you think Sony will be fine with continuing to fund Marathon for the niche crowd and also give Bungie another few hundred million to work on something new also?

 

[drotahorror]

Nothing's gonna save Marathon. Bungie might have been the most costly mistake in Sony's history.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

So you think Sony will be fine with continuing to fund Marathon for the niche crowd and also give Bungie another few hundred million to work on something new also?

I don't see what choice do they have?

Marathon is done. Its a niche title. Accept it and move onto something like Destiny 3 or something. Shouldn't cost much to keep Marathon rolling.

 

[simpatico]

Built like The Division with a Light Zone and Dark Zone. Light Zone has amazing loot, but Dark Zone, where PvP can happen, has just a little bit spicier as an invitation. But if they made it where you could play Light Zone only like TD did, it would be much more appropriate for the audience size they wanted.

 

[Johnny Concrete]

75% of the game is MID as Fuck. And the last 25% is very narrow.

Even if the game plays well. The biggest issue is that the overall product feels like a vertical slice devoid of actual depth and real challenge.


Your "suggestions" are just a sign of desperation.

Let's break down Ocarina of Time:

- swinging a sword
- moving around

That's it, basically.

Goddamn, what the hell am I reading.

 

[rkofan87]

I know every Live Service game has fans (and devs) who say this, but I really do think there's enough here with Marathon to right the ship. Here are 11 suggestions that hopefully address it's core issues...

1. Make a small, PvE only map that helps new / low skill players learn the majority of Marathons systems without the threat of PvP. Marathon is dense and difficult. It needs its Bunny Hill / Kiddie Pool.

2. Scrap Cryo Archive. The map sucks. It takes the 10 best parts of Marathon and removes 7 of them by reducing everything to bullet sponge waves and close quarter PvP. The aspirational end game map should take the 10 best parts of Marathon and add 3 more cool aspects. The map should feel like Disney World rather than a meat grinder.

3. Play the equivalent of the Jaws theme from any player who gets 3+ kills in a match so the rest of the lobby knows a shark is nearby. Increase the warning tempo and volume as the shark gets closer to you. Sweats are a primary reason people are falling off Marathon. This is the burden they must endure...at least on Perimeter and Dire Marsh.

4. Nerf shotguns more.

5. Buff Free Kits to the benefit of new players. Once they're buffed, ween players off them by reducing access according to season level. Example: Level 0 - 10, you get unlimited Free Kits. Level 11 - 20, you only get 3 Free Kits every 24 hrs...

6. Remove blood trail from knocked players so they can escape / hide more effectively. The better team already has a large advantage.

7. Give players DBNO shields (similar to self rez patches) so it's more difficult to finish off a knocked player. The better team already has a large advantage.

8. Make the Bosses more obvious by making them stand out more from regular UESC.

9. Increase the amount of unbreakable glass in the game. Improve the viewing angles of doors with windows. It's fun to see your enemy and be able to escape, strategize, or talk sh*t because the unbreakable glass separates the two of you. This would reduce the number of "instant 3 v 2s" the game currently suffers from.

10. Add a 3rd contract to Factions called Social Contracts. These contracts would require a deeper level of coms and strategy than Priority and Standard contracts. Players would choose these if they were currently on a team they liked and everyone was using mics.

11. Incentivize grouping up with randoms by creating special keys. When you pick up this key, it imprints the names of the other 2 players on your squad. When you extract with this key, it reveals instructions how the 3 of you can unlock a high tier loot room or event.

Also, very curious to hear other people's suggestions...

 

[yurinka]

Does it need saving?

Doesn't seem to be the case.

Has there been indication from Sony it will be shut down?

No

 

[L*][*N*K]

12- Make it free to play for a few weeks and shut it down.

 

[Fess]

The traditional FPS single player game is dead for a reason. It's not realistic for the Marathon team to shoot for Cyberpunk 2077 type scope.

If Marathon sticks around long term it will be because they figured out how to appeal to more PvP players. PvE players aren't going to save it.

They don't have to go for a massive Cyberpunk 2077 typ of experience. A shorter 5 hour campaign is enough, just get more people to even just start it so more can stick around for mp too.
And Bungie in particular knows how to do this. They created Halo, remember? You can see it even in the trailer they created for the latest update. They know this stuff.

 

[rkofan87]

The traditional FPS single player game is dead for a reason. It's not realistic for the Marathon team to shoot for Cyberpunk 2077 type scope.

If Marathon sticks around long term it will be because they figured out how to appeal to more PvP players. PvE players aren't going to save it.

 

[DragonNCM]

Where is option " Push the kill switch on servers " ?

 

[Guardian Monkey]

They don't have to go for a massive Cyberpunk 2077 typ of experience. A shorter 5 hour campaign is enough, just get more people to even just start it so more can stick around for mp too.
And Bungie in particular knows how to do this. They created Halo, remember? You can see it even in the trailer they created for the latest update. They know this stuff.

The game loop is literally the story. The story is getting contracts for the factions and completely them on your runs and adding to your vault/money. You would be making another story out of the existing one which is already made to fit the game.

Adding story missions would be pointless. It doesn't fit the narrative any more than the way it works now. Plus after the "story mission which people are asking for 5 hours, what next. They aren't going to jump into the pvepvp mode because it's too hard. What's the point? You've just made a half ass attempt and fundamentally broken the games narrative.

 

[Fess]

The game loop is literally the story. The story is getting contracts for the factions and completely them on your runs and adding to your vault/money. You would be making another story out of the existing one which is already made to fit the game.

Adding story missions would be pointless. It doesn't fit the narrative any more than the way it works now. Plus after the "story mission which people are asking for 5 hours, what next. They aren't going to jump into the pvepvp mode because it's too hard. What's the point? You've just made a half ass attempt and fundamentally broken the games narrative.

I don't know any details, if they can't get me and others not currently touching it to even try it then I have no idea what to do.

I just don't think tweaking mp details is the solution. There is nothing wrong with the gameplay loop going by current players. I mean 24k people posting reviews on Steam and ending up with 88% Very Positive is a tough spot if they attempt to do improvements.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

I don't know any details, if they can't get me and others not currently touching it to even try it then I have no idea what to do.

I just don't think tweaking mp details is the solution. There is nothing wrong with the gameplay loop going by current players. I mean 24k people posting reviews on Steam and ending up with 88% Very Positive is a tough spot if they attempt to do improvements.

The <9 min reveal trailer explains the story and loop.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Doesn't seem to be the case.

As a fan of Marathon, I disagree.

StreetsofBeige is doing the Lords work with a pretty detailed and fair analysis of Marathons CCU trend and it appears to be losing ~20% every week.

That's not sustainable and I guarantee Bungie is trying to locate and plug the leak.

I just don't think tweaking mp details is the solution. There is nothing wrong with the gameplay loop going by current players. I mean 24k people posting reviews on Steam and ending up with 88% Very Positive is a tough spot if they attempt to do improvements.

If high skill players are running the low skill players away, you can't trust the reviews from high skill players. The player retention trend is exponentially more important than Steam reviews.

 

[Fess]

If high skill players are running the low skill players away, you can't trust the reviews from high skill players. The player retention trend is exponentially more important than Steam reviews.

If it wouldn't appeal to high skill players it might not have as high user score, enthusiasts usually make themselves heard. And unimpressed high skill players might drop in a week and go back to whatever they played before. And nobody knows for sure how the ccu would look if it appealed more to low skill players, those players might also drop it in a week. It's a high risk genre.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

If it wouldn't appeal to high skill players it might not have as high user score, enthusiasts usually make themselves heard. And unimpressed high skill players might drop in a week and go back to whatever they played before. And nobody knows for sure how the ccu would look if it appealed more to low skill players, those players might also drop it in a week. It's a high risk genre.

I think if a high skill player gets an 11 kill game, they're not having substantially more fun than if they had a 4 kill game...however...the impact an 11 kill game has on a lobby of lower skill players is disastrous.

I actually think high skill players would (subconsciously) enjoy the game more if a 4 kill game was viewed as an accomplishment. There's a lack of tension and excitement with the 11 kill game.

IE The kid who gets 50 toys for Christmas will actually be more miserable than the kid who gets 5.

 

[Guardian Monkey]

I think if a high skill player gets an 11 kill game, they're not having substantially more fun than if they had a 4 kill game...however...the impact an 11 kill game has on a lobby of lower skill players is disastrous.

I actually think high skill players would (subconsciously) enjoy the game more if a 4 kill game was viewed as an accomplishment. There's a lack of tension and excitement with the 11 kill game.

IE The kid who gets 50 toys for Christmas will actually be more miserable than the kid who gets 5.

Whenever I see MIB rationalize Marathon.

 

[Fess]

I think if a high skill player gets an 11 kill game, they're not having substantially more fun than if they had a 4 kill game...however...the impact an 11 kill game has on a lobby of lower skill players is disastrous.

I actually think high skill players would (subconsciously) enjoy the game more if a 4 kill game was viewed as an accomplishment. There's a lack of tension and excitement with the 11 kill game.

IE The kid who gets 50 toys for Christmas will actually be more miserable than the kid who gets 5.

I don't play multiplayer games but right now I'm thinking it has a fairly satisfied core audience. It rewards having actual skills from what I've understood. It's not a bad place to be. Reminds me of something like Returnal which kinda bombed saleswise but became an enthusiast gamer fan favorite.
Remove that aspect and you'll never know how it will be received. It's a lottery to try to appeal to mainstream gamers. Nobody knows what's the magic ingredient for success.

 

[adamsapple]

Whenever I see MIB rationalize Marathon.

He's got to eat, man.

 

[GateofD]

Extraction shooter players are like drug addicts. They will never stick around. They will get their special high off game till they're immune to it and jump to the next one to experience a new flavor high and so on.
In effect the games will never last more than a few years. Or even make it to one