Mass Effect 3 SPOILER THREAD: LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE

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Yuripaw said:
However, a few hours before this, I JUST ended the war between the Geth and the Quarians, and brought about peace after hundreds of years. The Geth proved to be much less hostile, and only drove the Quarians away to maintain their own existence. The Geth never wanted to kill the Quarians, they just felt they had no choice. The stupid AI child made it sound like synthetics would always look upon themselves as more evolved than organics and destroy them. The more advanced the Geth became though, the more willing they were to work with organics!
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Regardless of what 'motive' the Geth would have to kill organics, that's what ends up happening. It could be argued that they behave just like organics in this regard, by trying to preserve themselves and eliminate threats. Maybe if the Reapers hadn't intervened for a few thousand years, the Geth would have become unstoppable. The Geth would have justified eliminating competitive races, because they were programmed by organics, and that's what organics do to survive.

I don't think Joker and EDI is a strong enough argument to support all organics and all synthetics potentially being able to get along. While putting that relationship in the story does sabotage the overall meaning of the game, that's not necessarily a contradiction that negates the justification of the cycle.
 
Somewhere in the codex it is mentioned that 4 Turian dreadnoughts can destroy a Reaper capital ship.
It bothered me that during ME3 everyone acts like a reaper is indestructible and invincible yet spend their time destroying and/or resisting them.

edit : well more precisely that reapers are invincible or not just when it is convenient for the story actually.
 
Kurtofan said:
I don't understand what you mean by that, you can't beat the Reapers through warfare anyway, so you get several choices but the scope of the enemies was so great I'm not sure how else they would have done it.

All throughout the game I felt like my choices matter on the galactic and personal scale, but the Reapers are beyond that scale.
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They reverse engineered the reapers main gun (this is the normandy weapon upgrade in ME2). Have the war effort contribute to installing those on the fleet you're gathering, then destroy the reaper forces piece by piece since they're so spread out. Hell, have the crucible contribute as a giant weapons platform.
 
Replicant said:
Uh, you do realize that the fact that the Reapers being out of scope is due to the writing, right? There's nothing that suggest that the resistance can't continue. And besides, halfway through the story, everyone manage to hold the Reaper off after you beef up your galactic readiness. I'd be fine if we can't beat the Reapers right away in this story but for a Deux Ex Machina solutions to be the only salvation is truly a BS argument on the part of the writers.
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I don't think it's a DEM, we don't know what the Crucible does, naturally we think it's a weapon, but it was pretty clear from the beginning it was going to be something more.

As for a Resistance option, I mean why not, but all the other cycles basically did that and got fucked over.Uniting the races allowed us to build the Crucible and to slow down the Reapers, but even the Krogans and the Turians together could barely slow down the Reapers on Palaven.
I understand the ending isn't perfect, but at least they didn't retcon the Reapers out of their power level.
 
Woffls said:
Most of the arguments in that GameFront article just seem to outline things that happened and call them ridiculous and improbable. I'm not seeing direct contradictions here, just a list of things that need explaining, and some assumptions.

If people are pissed that the ending defied what Mass Effect was 'about', then maybe Mass Effect wasn't about what you think it was about? Maybe it was about the futility of choice in the face of 'destiny' as opposed to free will.

Mass Effect wasn't about winning a war, it was about preserving life. The final scenes would have made more sense to the player if most of ME3's core narrative wasn't about winning the war, so maybe that was their mistake, but there was more than enough implications throughout the series to support this.
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TAKE EARTH BACK
 
Crewnh said:
No, that's what Catalyst says will happen. There's no reason for any player to believe him at face value when he has no proof other than "trust me bro" and when you have seen something that says otherwise.
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Shepard accept it way too quickly btw. It's not like him.

And how did the previous races conceive the Crucible? How can they be aware of the existence of the Catalyst? Didn't the reapers usually come at the citadel first? Not to mention that for them to be aware of the Catalyst existence they had to crack the secrets of the citadel and the keepers, wich seems unlikely.

I can't even imagine you can build something without knowing anything about how it works, but hey we did!
Nothing makes sense.
 
Yuripaw said:
Casey Hudson, is that you?

In all seriousness though, after thinking about it for even just a few minutes, I can't see how anyone, and I mean ANYONE could be satisfied with this ending. I feel like I could point out one thing that destroys the ending, and already makes it look like bad writing.

The theme of the ending, and the reason you HAVE to make one of those stupid choices is because it is destined that synthetic life will always uprise and destroy organic life...ok, in another game, or another universe, I could accept this ending.

However, a few hours before this, I JUST ended the war between the Geth and the Quarians, and brought about peace after hundreds of years. The Geth proved to be much less hostile, and only drove the Quarians away to maintain their own existence. The Geth never wanted to kill the Quarians, they just felt they had no choice. The stupid AI child made it sound like synthetics would always look upon themselves as more evolved than organics and destroy them. The more advanced the Geth became though, the more willing they were to work with organics!

Not to mention EDI and Joker...the entire ending has this attitude that organics and synthetics could never co-exist, yet during the game you play Cupid and help bring together a couple between a AI and a crippled human. They managed to find love, but...the AI child says "nope, we have to destroy all organics to save organics from those evil synthetics" -_-

Fuck that ending, I swear...
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Whats utterly insane is that the one who is arguing that war between synthetics and organics is inevitable? The AI that controls all the synthetics that are currently killing us.

Indoctrination theory, man, it's the only thing that makes any sense.


Woffls said:
Regardless of what 'motive' the Geth would have to kill organics, that's what ends up happening. It could be argued that they behave just like organics in this regard, by trying to preserve themselves and eliminate threats. Maybe if the Reapers hadn't intervened for a few thousand years, the Geth would have become unstoppable. The Geth would have justified eliminating competitive races, because they were programmed by organics, and that's what organics do to survive.

I don't think Joker and EDI is a strong enough argument to support all organics and all synthetics potentially being able to get along. While putting that relationship in the story does sabotage the overall meaning of the game, that's not necessarily a contradiction that negates the justification of the cycle.
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Being peaceful doesn't mean your not ever going to resort to violence under any circumstance.

Besides, you can't condemn someone based on what they MIGHT do. Anyone can possibly do wrong. You might wake up tomorrow and decide to kill everyone at work. It's entirely possible. That doesn't mean you should be charged and convicted of murder before it happens.
 
In ten years there will still be indoctrination theorists, standing around our streets, withered with age and stress, holding signs that read "DLC IS COMING".
 
Generic said:
Whats utterly insane is that the one who is arguing that war between synthetics and organics is inevitable? The AI that controls all the synthetics that are currently killing us.

Indoctrination theory, man, it's the only thing that makes any sense.
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Only because you want it to
 
Crewnh said:
No, that's what Catalyst says will happen. There's no reason for any player to believe him at face value when he has no proof other than "trust me bro" and when you have seen something that says otherwise.
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I didn't mean Geth killing all organics, just some Quarians. If that behaviour is embedded in them, then why would it not continue if the Consensus determined that other races were also a threat?

Blue Ninja said:
TAKE EARTH BACK
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We were told in the first game that the workings of the galaxy is beyond our comprehension, and enough time was spent addressing this that I was more concerned about the cycle than the war. Turns out Sovereign knew what was up, and the Illusive Man actually had a better plan than Shepard did. Taking back Earth was ultimately irrelevant, and we'll be aware of that next time we play the trilogy.
 
Woffls said:
I didn't mean Geth killing all organics, just some Quarians. If that behaviour is embedded in them, then why would it not continue if the Consensus determined that other races were also a threat?
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Legion: "No two species are identical. All must be judged by their own merits. Treating every species like ones' own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphicism."

And the geth did not forget that as many quarians defended them as attacked them. They died doing so. There is no reason to think that the geth would consider the quarians a threat so long as they don't attack them first.
 
The "you can't kill a Reaper" argument, and the fact that they cannot be beaten conventionally is a bullshit argument. I have done it. I have seen it happen.

You get enough badasses motherfuckers together, and you WILL take a Reaper down, as we have done time and time again, and how we were doing it at the final battle to take earth back. Hell, we see a single Alliance dreadnought blow a capital Reaper to bits in the battle.
 
Zeal said:
The "you can't kill a Reaper" argument, and the fact that they cannot be beaten conventionally is a bullshit argument. I have done it. I have seen it happen.

You get enough badasses motherfuckers together, and you WILL take a Reaper down, as we have done time and time again, and how we were doing it at the final battle to take earth back. Hell, we see a single Alliance dreadnought blow a capital Reaper to bits in the battle.
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Dat cowbell power...
 
So what would Star Child have said if they had come back to a galaxy where, say, the Krogan had wiped out all other species. How do Synthetics have the monopoly on genocide?
 
Woffls said:
Most of the arguments in that GameFront article just seem to outline things that happened and call them ridiculous and improbable. I'm not seeing direct contradictions here, just a list of things that need explaining, and some assumptions.

If people are pissed that the ending defied what Mass Effect was 'about', then maybe Mass Effect wasn't about what you think it was about? Maybe it was about the futility of choice in the face of 'destiny' as opposed to free will.

Mass Effect wasn't about winning a war, it was about preserving life. The final scenes would have made more sense to the player if most of ME3's core narrative wasn't about winning the war, so maybe that was their mistake, but there was more than enough implications throughout the series to support this.
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INDOCTRINATED AGENT DETECTED
 
Woffls said:
If people are pissed that the ending defied what Mass Effect was 'about', then maybe Mass Effect wasn't about what you think it was about? Maybe it was about the futility of choice in the face of 'destiny' as opposed to free will.
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You mean in complete opposition to the constant and recurring theme of choice and consequence over the past three games?
 
Minion101 said:
The "Reaper - indoctrination" entry in the codex is pretty interesting...
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And who keeps seeing "ghostly images" and voices all throughout the game, as the entry states? Shepard.

That's why I believe he truly was indoctrinated at the very end, and that the entire sequence that takes place leading up to the ending is one massive, Reaper induced trip.
 
Rebel Leader said:
Only because you want it to
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Nah, I expected it from as far back as when shepard was starting to have the nightmares. Maybe not in the particular form that it took, but I knew they'd do something with it. And there are several other hints that support it. I don't see it as a cop out, but it does lack closure because we don't know what the hell actually happened nor do we know the real reason why the reapers are doing all this. Still, it makes sense.

Zeal said:
The "you can't kill a Reaper" argument, and the fact that they cannot be beaten conventionally is a bullshit argument. I have done it. I have seen it happen.

You get enough badasses motherfuckers together, and you WILL take a Reaper down, as we have done time and time again, and how we were doing it at the final battle to take earth back. Hell, we see a single Alliance dreadnought blow a capital Reaper to bits in the battle.
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You do realize "enough badasses together" required the ENTIRE FLEET of ships all firing on the weak spot of ONE reaper bring it down. We are up against thousands. Taking killing A reaper is possible, yeah, sure, if you go to ridiculous means to do so. Killing thousands is beyond them.
 
Woffls said:
Demoralizing Reaper babble.
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Jake Tower said:
INDOCTRINATED AGENT DETECTED
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Rebel Leader said:
SWITCHING TO DEFENSIVE MODE
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132597704176-Clap.gif


Hold the line.
 
I too would like to believe the whole indoctrination theory about the ending...because yeah, my Shepard would not so blindly accept the bull shit during that ending.

The only problem I have with this though, is if it was some kind of indoctrination going on with Shepard, why did they give him those options? Why didn't they just continue to destroy all organic life, and even give Shepard the option to preserve some life, and destroy the mass relays. It seemed like the Reapers will hellbent on the cycle.
 
Shahadan said:
And how did the previous races conceive the Crucible? How can they be aware of the existence of the Catalyst? Didn't the reapers usually come at the citadel first? Not to mention that for them to be aware of the Catalyst existence they had to crack the secrets of the citadel and the keepers, wich seems unlikely.
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It's explicitly stated that it's a concept passed down and refined over countless cycles. Without knowing the detail of the first cycle - the relationship between the Catalyst and it's own synthetic/organic conflict - it's a bit odd to presume that the seed of the Crucible and its subsequent refinement were improbable. With untold cycles each lasting decades to centuries... that's a lot of time.


The only problem I have with this though, is if it was some kind of indoctrination going on with Shepard, why did they give him those options? Why didn't they just continue to destroy all organic life, and even give Shepard the option to preserve some life, and destroy the mass relays. It seemed like the Reapers will hellbent on the cycle.
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Saren was completely indoctrinated and he was still able to fight against it at times. The implication is that Shepard was in the progress of being indoctrinated, and that the choices presented are subtly manipulated to incentivise him to choose a solution that benefits the Reapers.
 
Generic said:
Nah, I expected it from as far back as when shepard was starting to have the nightmares. Maybe not in the particular form that it took, but I knew they'd do something with it. And there are several other hints that support it. I don't see it as a cop out, but it does lack closure because we don't know what the hell actually happened nor do we know the real reason why the reapers are doing all this. Still, it makes sense.
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I'll add to it (I don't like the indroc theory or even believe) but.... How do we know shepard was not implanted with reaper like tech? Do we know how long TIM had that dead reaper?
 
Zeal said:
The "you can't kill a Reaper" argument, and the fact that they cannot be beaten conventionally is a bullshit argument. I have done it. I have seen it happen.

You get enough badasses motherfuckers together, and you WILL take a Reaper down, as we have done time and time again, and how we were doing it at the final battle to take earth back. Hell, we see a single Alliance dreadnought blow a capital Reaper to bits in the battle.
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Kroganator.jpg
 
I bet there are some super advanced races over in the Andromeda Galaxy looking through their telescopes at the Milky Way every 50,000 years and saying "Those fuckin idiots are at it again"


Kem0sabe said:
http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/I_am_a_Spoon/Kroganator.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
:lol
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GrandHarrier said:
So what would Star Child have said if they had come back to a galaxy where, say, the Krogan had wiped out all other species. How do Synthetics have the monopoly on genocide?
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the krogan wouldnt do that, no species would.
organic life needs organic life, if only to eat it.
synthetics have no need for life so they would purge all life everywhere.
 
Sigh... even the reaper on Rannoch says "you cannot possibly comprehend our intentions." Yes dude, I totally DO understand, and am disproving your views AS WE SPEAK!
 
Rebel Leader said:
I'll add to it (I don't like the indroc theory or even believe) but.... How do we know shepard was not implanted with reaper like tech? Do we know how long TIM had that dead reaper?
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The dead reaper meaning the one from the end of mass effect 2? Because that would take place after the lazarus project (beginning of me2).
 
Zeal said:
The "you can't kill a Reaper" argument, and the fact that they cannot be beaten conventionally is a bullshit argument. I have done it. I have seen it happen.

You get enough badasses motherfuckers together, and you WILL take a Reaper down, as we have done time and time again, and how we were doing it at the final battle to take earth back. Hell, we see a single Alliance dreadnought blow a capital Reaper to bits in the battle.
Click to expand...

There's not much weight behind the "you cant kill a Reaper" argument. Some people just prefer the imaginary invincible god machine scenario, regardless of said scenario being disproven in the first game.
 
Yuripaw said:
I too would like to believe the whole indoctrination theory about the ending...because yeah, my Shepard would not so blindly accept the bull shit during that ending.

The only problem I have with this though, is if it was some kind of indoctrination going on with Shepard, why did they give him those options? Why didn't they just continue to destroy all organic life, and even give Shepard the option to preserve some life, and destroy the mass relays. It seemed like the Reapers will hellbent on the cycle.
Click to expand...

Indoctrination doesn't mean that reapers have full control of you. It basically means you are being lied to. Shepard had those options because they couldn't hide those options from him, the same way they couldn't stop Saren or the Illusive Man from killing themselves if you get them to see the truth. It's becomes much more obvious when the ending that the Illusive man, the villain, wanted was shown in blue, typically used as a paragon choice, while the ending Anderson, who has been painted as a great man the entire game, the ending that leads to the destruction of the reapers is painted in red.
 
EatChildren said:
There's not much weight behind the "you cant kill a Reaper" argument. Some people just prefer the imaginary invincible god machine scenario, regardless of said scenario being disproven in the first game.
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Particularly not given that the fleet is in the process of blowing one to pieces when they approach Earth.
 
Alrix said:
The dead reaper meaning the one from the end of mass effect 2? Because that would take place after the lazarus project (beginning of me2).
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But how long did TIM have it? How long does it take to be indoc? BUT, If TIM had it since the project.....But we only know about much later
 
If the extra lore is anything to go by TIM didn't properly start experimenting with Reaper technology until post-ME2, as detailed by the third book. ME3 makes several references to Grayson as their test subject, which he was, and he was the antagonist of that book. TIM's infusion of Reaper tech on his own troops and himself happened post-ME2. He was, however, suffering semi-indoctrination effects since the events of Evolution, long before ME1.
 
Jintor said:
You mean in complete opposition to the constant and recurring theme of choice and consequence over the past three games?
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Exactly.

I draw a parallel between Shepard's story, and that of a regular life. Think hard about the choices you make, and try to do good along the way, and preserve life for those who are left at the end. It's the journey that counts, because ultimately you're going to die...

... unless you play the fucking multiplayer. Seriously BioWare can fuck off with that shit.
 
so i read that Bioware originally planned that TIM would get reaper-ized and would be the last boss in the game. however they scrapped that because they "wanted to give players the satisfaction of fighting a character they know rather than a random creature". there is even an artwork of him in the mass effect 3 artbook.

I wondered why there was no 'final boss fight' at the end of the game.
 
GrandHarrier said:
Yes... No race has ever killed a world before, like say, nuclear scoured Tuchanka.
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you mean that planet that is still habitable and still supports its own native flora and fauna? Thats the world you want to compare to synthetics scouring a planet down to the last microbe?
 
GrandHarrier said:
Yes... No race has ever killed a world before, like say, nuclear scoured Tuchanka.
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Well, it might be that any race violent and warlike enough to commit genocide on a synthetic level would inevitably wipe themselves out once they discover nukes, unless uplifted by another species.
 
Shahadan said:
And how did the previous races conceive the Crucible? How can they be aware of the existence of the Catalyst? Didn't the reapers usually come at the citadel first? Not to mention that for them to be aware of the Catalyst existence they had to crack the secrets of the citadel and the keepers, wich seems unlikely.
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The way it works in the ending I can only assume the Crucible would have to have been there at the beginning, and wouldn't be surprised if it was something that ended the first and then started the process of the cycles, maybe it was used to wipe out a big race of synthetics that was waring with organics and the Reapers were their last hope at a survival for organic beings or some stupid reason.

We have no idea how many cycles have fought against the Reapers, the Protheans survived for centuries and there is no reason to assume others didn't beforehand all building upon the knowledge of past races, eventually turning the Crucible into a big reset button but none managed to figure out in time how to best use it.
 
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