Next gen cel shading: will games finally look like cartoons/anime?
- Thread starter Canis lupus
- Start date
My theory is that it's more a problem of line consistencies. The shape of a visage you draw will change from a frame to another, while in 3D, you have this perfectly consistent shape that seems too hard or cold.
My ida is that what you need to remove that feeling is to use a lot of model deformation in your animations. The face has to be warped slightly when it's moving for example. Funnily i remember n64 games used a lot of that kind of animation. Like the famous mario face in Mario 64 start screen.
Source? I thought (and was told) it was 100% 2D.
"True animation" is a wrong concept.
Yep. All those wonferful gif coming from anime have a "karisuma animator" attached to it.
For this cel-shaded movie the process was 3D model > deconstruct 3D model > introduce 2D style deformations & perspectives > anime it not in 24 img/sec but with the japanese "limited animation" approach to make it look like 2D anime but with some advantages of 3D rendering. Crazy work, great result. Don't think it's a way of working which would fit the gaming industry production conditions.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
the reason people praise Wind Waker is the fact that it holds up well because of it's style, when so many games of that generation (which looked better at the time) hasn't.
I think the character models are pretty close to being there already. It's mostly the animation that is holding games back, especially in many jrpgs where shoestring budgets result in horribly animated models. Also, Anime has a camera angle freedom that videogames will never have. Unless we are talking about cut scenes, players need to be able to follow what is happening on screen. If you look at a lot of the anime GIFs in this thread, the camera zooms all over the place. You wouldn't be able to play that.
The Mana Legend
Banned
I can't wait for next-gen to give us in-game animation like this
This looks like Beavis and Butthead.
Max Knight
Member
As others have noted, a lot of cel-shaded games this gen look pretty close already, so I'd say that it will get there next gen.
Despite being a mediocre game overall, DBZ Burst Limit looks incredible.
Despite being a mediocre game overall, DBZ Burst Limit looks incredible.
the reason people praise Wind Waker is the fact that it holds up well because of it's style, when so many games of that generation (which looked better at the time) hasn't.
I mentioned how the first Dungeon one of the parts of the game where it has great cel-shaded graphics. These parts are only few and far between.
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
Next F-Zero to look like this?
I actually wouldn't mind the next F-Zero to look like this
Whoa, I definitely have to check this one out.
Hmm ... it looks like I was wrong
Must bemixing it with another anime ... sorry
No prob', I was just surprised because as far as I remember Redline is one of the last, if not the last, big production done entirely in 2D. It's one of the thing Koike Takeshi is proud of.
I remember and I'm with you but what I would wand to see as a 3D cel-shaded game is something using these characters:
I don't even know the anime, but those cars are clearly 3d, look at the style, is completely different from the one of the characters and the cars are perfectly "drawn", no perspective errors.
The complete scene is 3d, not only the cars, even sky and terrain.
Look at these
This is 3d imo
these are 2d
Can you see the difference?
Everything is fast so it's difficult to say what is 2d and what 3d, but in screenshots differences are clear.
Cel shading will never catch hand drawn cartoons/animes look if it doesn't lose its lack of errors and imperfections.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
Most anime hasn't been hand drawn in years. Digital painting became the norm in the early 00's iirc. some late 90's stuff used it as well, in places, like the eva films.
Uh... I think you're confusing 'hand drawn' with cel vs digital animation. Just because they use tablets and such now doesn't make it any less hand drawn.
With "hand drawn" i'm do not intend drawn with pencils, but 2d(pencils or computer) without 3d
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Red Line didn't use any 3D animation
Zoramon089
Banned
You're taking "hand drawn" WAY too literally. It was obvious he meant drawn as opposed to modeled. Whether that's done by hand, on cells, or digitally. And painting digitally doesn't mean it doesn't have to be drawn first...
Look at the tires here
now look at the tires here
Sorry i'm not blind
EDIT:
tires are only an example, you can look at the whole blue car or at everything else.
Zoramon089
Banned
Yeah, I don't think he realizes this. It's like people who assume something is CG so they always think anything that looks even the slightest bit off is CG. There's a reason is took seven years to make
I guess that if i say that i hand drawn this you would trust me right?
Tell me, are these two images from the anime?
If yes do they look the same to you?
FlashbladeGAF
Member
3d models werent used
Some shots require more detail on the art than others.
Your comparing a closeup shot where 1.) 2 cars are positioned roughly in the same spot of the frame with everything else moving around them
versus
2) a long shot where multiple cars are coming from the background into the foreground.
For the first shot ...
because the camera is moving with the cars you can make high quality frames for the cars with minimal movement while focusing all the animation on the stuff around them.
for the 2nd image
because the camera is stationary, the animators have to do all the work in bringing the cars from the background to the foreground.
because of time, budget, etc. the quality of the animation wont look as clean as the first shot. But at the same time because of the speed at which the cars are moving, the quality doesnt need to be at that level to get the effect they are going for.
only thing i can think of at the moment
Porco Rosso
Valkyria
Banned
where did you get that screenshot? Is Dolphin or Pcsx2? I have the game on Xbox and doen't look that good.
Look at the tires here
now look at the tires here
Sorry i'm not blind
EDIT:
tires are only an example, you can look at the whole blue car or at everything else.
That's not an example of CG, that's an example of a good scene versus a not so good scene. Animation is divided into scenes handled by many different animators, so obviously the quality and detail will vary depending on a) how important a scene is, b) who is animating it. That's all.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
And this says it all right here.
You really should watch before commenting.
It's pretty obvious once you see it in motion.
There are some game cover artwork that look like CG models that are actually paintings
if it was CG they would have used it for the entire movie, to save on the seven year production
EDIT: Sorry for the Gif overload
Zoramon089
Banned
If anything the inconsistencies in the designs should have made it clear it WASN'T CG as there'd be no reason for them to draw the entire car when animating one scene if they had a model for it in another
Believe whatever you want. There was no 3D reference either. They took 6 years to make the movie because they only wanted to animate it by hand with the best animators in Japan. I really don't understand why you're claiming that the DIFFERENCE in quality between scenes is evidence of CG when it's the complete opposite. If they were using CG models for the cars then every single scene with the vehicles will look the same. They don't. Because different animators drew different scenes. Some are more detailed than others.
There's no reason anyone has to lie. We've followed the production of the movie, there are tons of interviews with the director and the animators, they even released a book in Japan with a bunch of key animation drawings for a bunch of the scenes with commentary from the animator who did it.
I commend you for even bothering. Threads like these are a pain to read through...
Personally, I doubt CG will ever be able to match the best of traditional animation, simply because there's is so much that sets them apart. The whole animation process is just completely different, influencing the mindset as well as goals of the animators themselves.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
As much crap as anime gets for static poses and recycled animation(not everyone can have Disney's budget) there mech/vehicle animation still impress me to this day.
Akira was animated back in 1988
1988!
Your telling me Redline can't animate cars without 3D when we have animation like this back in 1988!
You should! Its an incredibly exhilarating experience. Pretty good OST, and incredibly animated.
Yep. Its simply that good.
And this says it all right here.
You really should watch before commenting.
It's pretty obvious once you see it in motion.
There are some game cover artwork that look like CG models that are actually paintings
if it was CG they would have used it for the entire movie, to save on the seven year production
EDIT: Sorry for the Gif overload
I was looking for that gif when making the post I made here, I am gonna be saving that.
No. No. Sorry but no.
The main goal of this movie was to higlight 2D animation. It took them a crazy amount of work and time (and some of the best animators) to achieve that. It was even a joke at madhouse from what friends working in the jp anime industry told me. I had the chance to interview Koike (the director) and when I asked him if the full 2D choice was the reason of such a long production, he said (rough translation from my French translation of the Jp) : "In order to provide the best visual and 2D sensory experience , our handpicked teams had a volume of work more important than usual. For example, the people in charge of the original illustrations were also in charge of the backgrounds, the compositing, intervals, timing, etc. Normally a specific team is in charge for each of these tasks, but by grouping them together we managed to get a really special visual identity ."
Also, what duckroll said.
Edit:
To achieve the quality of the Akira purchase scene you need a guy like Morimoto Koji. He was the one in charge of these scenes in Akira if I'm right.
Artistically it was really profitable. You are not going to believe it but there's even people thinking it's 3D animation!
Probably not. It didn't do that great at the Japanese box office, and the home video release didn't sell well either. It's possible the overseas licensing and US/Europe releases could have made it profitable, but we'll never know.
Either way the studio which made the movie went through restructuring some time after it was release and most of the people who worked on the movie work with other studios now. It certainly wasn't a success, because honestly, consumers at large don't care about the art of animation. Most people are only interested in what's popular and new, or stuff based on popular comics and franchises, etc.
Here's another reminder of how amazingly healthy the 2D animation industry is today: http://thedisneyblog.com/2013/04/12/walt-disney-animation-studios-lets-most-of-hand-drawn-team-go/
Host Samurai
Member
Bring it on developers. I've been waiting for this a loooooooong ass time.
You should, Redline is fantastic.
They could've trimmed about 20 minutes of fluff, but still well worth your time and money.
So stupidly good.. i can hear Geinoh Yamashirogumi in my head.
Yep, the movie bombed and it was expected. Madhouse produced great movies this last decade and a lot of the greatest Jp anime creators worked with them. Great for the art, bad for the shareholders.
I suspected it, projects running for too long often do not end well
I already know about disney's layoffs, it's really sad.
Yellowline > Redline.
I'm going to say that i think this film would've worked without any spoken dialogue (maybe some made up alien language) through out.
It would've been even crazier.
At least after NTV bought over Madhouse they've actually found a good balance of profit and production quality for the studio lately. I hear the new Hunter x Hunter series is really good these days, and NTV has to be happy to have a well received on-going shounen series on their network produced by a studio they own. If I recall right, Madhouse was previously under the ownership of Index Holdings, the same company which bought Atlus and eventually absorbed them into the parent company itself.
I definitely feel bad for all the talent which bled out of the studio and are now all over the place, but the worst part is definitely that Kon's final movie might never be completed because of the way things are going. MAPPA doesn't seem like they'll ever have the resources to tackle the completion of it, and Madhouse clearly has other interests now. :/
So the takeaway I'm getting from this thread is that I need to watch the fuck out of some Sword of The Stranger, Akira and Redline like right now. Good job guys. 
Honestly, I want to see all the attempts at getting this kind of style (more animated) that the upcoming gen will allow. Hyper stylized graphics are master race and the more things that get closer to some of the examples in here, the better.
Honestly, I want to see all the attempts at getting this kind of style (more animated) that the upcoming gen will allow. Hyper stylized graphics are master race and the more things that get closer to some of the examples in here, the better.
Jawmuncher
Member
This thread made me realize.....I need to watch RedLine.
Similar threads
- Poll