DigitalFoundry: Hands-on with PS4 1080p 30fps...!!

Literally the only thing MS did right this E3 was playing the numbers game. It doesn't mean much outside gaming enthusiast forums, but it's working brilliantly.

We've known now since Feb. that Killzone and Driveclub were shooting for 1080p at 30fps. MS saw the tech specs of the PS4, they were just as surprised as anyone else, and did two things to shift the talk: praise the power of the cloud (done at the X1 reveal) and declare their games to be 60fps at 1080p (done at E3).

They did this by showcasing two games- Killer Instinct, who's small arena and somewhat simple character models was able to achieve 60fps easily (with a very impressive particle engine), and Forza 5, who's lighting engine was painfully bad on the 360, let alone the X1, which decidedly factors into not having night/weather/time change races. Despite all that F5 still leaves a much better impression than Driveclub.

Think about it- MS didn't declare "60fps, because it's next gen yall!" for the casual gamers watching. Dudebro doesn't know what the heck a 60fps game is. There are people in this forum who can't tell the difference between 30/60. It was a direct shot at people who love playing the console wars card. It was a bulletpoint against the PS4 games running at 30fps (i.e. the launch lineup). EA declares Battlefield 4 to be 60fps on the X1, then goes on to show it running on a PC...which they later said was spec'd to X1 standards, which is complete bullshit. I can imagine an EA dev saying to the team, "wow guys, this footage of B4 running on ultra high settings is gorgeous for the big MS conference that will be watched by millions. But let's downgrade it a bit to the X1 standards because I don't want to mislead the consumer or anything."

I've read a few articles here and there about Sony 1st party devs transitioning from the Cell to the PS4, and how it proved to be a challenge at first- all the tricks of developing for the Cell and the PS3 architecture don't really apply to the PS4 at all. Devs who are comfortable with PC architecture (almost all third party devs) will make the transition fairly smoothly as they already have their bag of tricks from working on this type of system for years now. While overcoming the new transition from PS3 to PS4 shouldn't take nearly as long as it did to shine that Cell up, it will be for Evolution and Guerrilla Games who have launch deadlines to meet. One of the Driveclub leads said they're targeting 60fps, but he personally preferred 30fps with a lot of awesome stuff on the screen. That would have likely been the end goal had it not been the smart play by MS of declaring 60fps as the target for all next gen games...and it wouldn't surprise me if Sony is telling Evolution to up that framerate now.

Look at the third party situation on PS4- Watchdogs, Assassin's Creed, Need for Speed, The Division, all running on PS4 and looking fantastic at E3, arguably more so than the first party titles at this point. For all I know these too are running on PC devkits spec'd to ultra settings (I believe all EA games were at E3). But I do think that, when the PS4 launches, the showpieces of the system will ultimately come from third parties. They know how to work the hardware.

Ultimately the comparisons between third party multiplatform games for PS4/XB1 are going to be extremely interesting. I think MS might have bit off a bit more than they can chew with the 60fps goals they have in mind. At the same time it's caught the 1st party games off balance, who's 30fps goals look decidedly last gen. This is a temporary launch issue, and I feel like most devs will be back with 30fps games by next year, but it's a pretty weird situation right now. At the very least, it's the one thing that MS has done right in portraying their console's power.
 
It's getting attention because (apparently) many people assumed new consoles would equal almost all 1080p60 titles, instead of the more likely scenario that devs were going to largely target the framerates of the current gen with much lusher visuals at 1080p.

and then there is a small contingent going with "lulz sony first parties.."

DF, despite its flaws summarizes it well.

Sony's agenda with this initial wave of games is clearly hinging on visual fireworks rather than maximising frame-rates to the full 60Hz refresh. In the case of Guerrilla Games' and Sucker Punch's sterling work, the pay-off speaks volumes through the screens

I listened to two podcast and a youtube E3 review yesterday and to my surprise they all said infamous was the best looking game and most "next gen" to them. Sony knows what everyone else knows, 60fps doesn't help sell games for most genres, but graphics do.
 
I dunno why Neogaf judges systems with launch titles. You would think people in a dedicated forum such as this, posters would be more informed.

We are simply reacting to what we see and not going on baseless faith.
Do we expect games to look better as the generation progresses?
Yes
Do we expect games to go from sub 30fps to 60fps while maintaining or exceeding the visuals of launch titles?
No and why should we.
 
You have my heart now. Your soul is wonderful.

Literally the only thing MS did right this E3 was playing the numbers game. It doesn't mean much outside gaming enthusiast forums, but it's working brilliantly.

We've known now since Feb. that Killzone and Driveclub were shooting for 1080p at 30fps. MS saw the tech specs of the PS4, they were just as surprised as anyone else, and did two things to shift the talk: praise the power of the cloud (done at the X1 reveal) and declare their games to be 60fps at 1080p (done at E3).

They did this by showcasing two games- Killer Instinct, who's small arena and somewhat simple character models was able to achieve 60fps easily (with a very impressive particle engine), and Forza 5, who's lighting engine was painfully bad on the 360, let alone the X1, which decidedly factors into not having night/weather/time change races. Despite all that F5 still leaves a much better impression than Driveclub.

Think about it- MS didn't declare "60fps, because it's next gen yall!" for the casual gamers watching. Dudebro doesn't know what the heck a 60fps game is. There are people in this forum who can't tell the difference between 30/60. It was a direct shot at people who love playing the console wars card. It was a bulletpoint against the PS4 games running at 30fps (i.e. the launch lineup). EA declares Battlefield 4 to be 60fps on the X1, then goes on to show it running on a PC...which they later said was spec'd to X1 standards, which is complete bullshit. I can imagine an EA dev saying to the team, "wow guys, this footage of B4 running on ultra high settings is gorgeous for the big MS conference that will be watched by millions. But let's downgrade it a bit to the X1 standards because I don't want to mislead the consumer or anything."

I've read a few articles here and there about Sony 1st party devs transitioning from the Cell to the PS4, and how it proved to be a challenge at first- all the tricks of developing for the Cell and the PS3 architecture don't really apply to the PS4 at all. Devs who are comfortable with PC architecture (almost all third party devs) will make the transition fairly smoothly as they already have their bag of tricks from working on this type of system for years now. While overcoming the new transition from PS3 to PS4 shouldn't take nearly as long as it did to shine that Cell up, it will be for Evolution and Guerrilla Games who have launch deadlines to meet. One of the Driveclub leads said they're targeting 60fps, but he personally preferred 30fps with a lot of awesome stuff on the screen. That would have likely been the end goal had it not been the smart play by MS of declaring 60fps as the target for all next gen games...and it wouldn't surprise me if Sony is telling Evolution to up that framerate now.

Look at the third party situation on PS4- Watchdogs, Assassin's Creed, Need for Speed, The Division, all running on PS4 and looking fantastic at E3, arguably more so than the first party titles at this point. For all I know these too are running on PC devkits spec'd to ultra settings (I believe all EA games were at E3). But I do think that, when the PS4 launches, the showpieces of the system will ultimately come from third parties. They know how to work the hardware.

Ultimately the comparisons between third party multiplatform games for PS4/XB1 are going to be extremely interesting. I think MS might have bit off a bit more than they can chew with the 60fps goals they have in mind. At the same time it's caught the 1st party games off balance, who's 30fps goals look decidedly last gen. This is a temporary launch issue, and I feel like most devs will be back with 30fps games by next year, but it's a pretty weird situation right now. At the very least, it's the one thing that MS has done right in portraying their console's power.

Well said and definitely on point. First party studios def. have been acustomed to work on the cell and dont know the ins and outs, but rest assured teams like ND and Santa Monica and the others will learn quickly and the 1080p 60fps games with high graphical fidelity will def. come from them.
 
DF, despite its flaws summarizes it well.



I listened to two podcast and a youtube E3 review yesterday and to my surprise they all said infamous was the best looking game and most "next gen" to them. Sony knows what everyone else knows, 60fps doesn't help sell games for most genres, but graphics do.

When i saw the Infamous gameplay for the first time on ps4 i said "damn this looks more next gen than killzone sf by far" So i agree.
 
It's a difference of philosophy between MS studios and Sony studios. It says nothing about the hardware.

Sony studios wants to maximize visuals, MS wants to maximize smoothness of user experience across the board, including games, which means no lag, no framerate problems, no IQ problems, no disc switching, no fumbling with controllers etc.
 
What is it that people want the most from next gen? Is it 1080P 60FPS games, no DRM, video sharing, clouds, hot RAM, TitanFall, Mark Cerney's sexy voice, Wii U/Vita suicide pact?

DF's analysis at this stage is incomplete data. It is a single frame in a 3 hour epic that hasn't finished filming. God, the wait for this launch and this forum may pop some vessels in the heads of members at this rate.
 
Why the shit this become fanboy war lol
I'm only pack PS4 too, but if xbone's game have more FPS so far that's fine and great for them.
 
Why can't we get control of our game settings at this point, let the user decide what he wants, "high" setting with 30 FPS or lowered effects with a variable FPS switch.
How hard would this be to implement?
 
Well said and definitely on point. First party studios def. have been acustomed to work on the cell and dont know the ins and outs, but rest assured teams like ND and Santa Monica and the others will learn quickly and the 1080p 60fps games with high graphical fidelity will def. come from them.

I dunno, working with the Cell using jobs based system should transition well to a 8 core CPU and a 10 queue GPU. The Cell taught many devs how to work with multi core systems. I don' think any 3rd party devs with multi-platform engines are going to best 1st party devs working on a single platform. Second Son and Killzone are probably going to be launch window poster children for next gen. They are both very competent dev houses with lots of resources and they started their PS4 games early.
 
the eSRAM is a workaround put in when MS was positive they would ship with double the RAM because Sony was committing to GDDR5. 8GB DDR3 feeding into 32MB eSRAM to compare to 4GB GDDR5.

With Sony doubling the RAM, they once again increased that deficit way more than the eSRAM can account for.

At launch we won't really see much of a difference. But as time goes on, that memory architecture difference will become MUCH more profound, not less so.


At this point I think it's clear to say esram is not a workaround, it's a central point of their design. Or putting in another way: They deliberated traded processing power for on chip ram because they saw advantage to it (to their goals, of course).

Ryse was the best looking Xbox One game and it wasn't running either at 60FPS or on a Xbox One.

It wasn't 60, but a steady 30 with vsync enabled all the time and was running on xbone hardware.
 
Going to say, I''m a bit worried. Everything I've seen from PS4 so far (besides Infamous) doesn't look as good as I expected. Obviously they still need to work, but so far Forza was the most impressive thing I've seen (that is actually a real working demo).

How can the Xbone's weaker specs be putting out a better looking game (1080p + 60 FPS) =/

And Drive Club...smh
 
Killzone 3 had an allright inputlag, about that Halo... we haven't even seen a single ingame picture ;)

I played the Killzone 3 demo. Still didn't feel right to me, and while it's true that we haven't seen the new Halo, MS went on stage to announce it would run at 60fps.

borghe said:
you are really going to be in for a rude awakening, especially if you are expecting a higher number of 60fps titles on xbone... you just have to look at the titles being talked about in the article and compare those to the types of titles shown on XBONE at 60fps..

60fps on PS4 >= 60fps on XBONE for third parties..
for first parties, I'm guessing the same types of games will have the same types of framerates between both consoles.

Look, I know that the PS4 is more powerful and in the future we should start seeing a noticeable difference of quality between the two consoles. However, in the light of this news combined with the fact that Sony just doesn't have anything to offer at launch that I want, it's making the X1 look more attractive. I will end up buying both consoles, there's no question about it but only one at launch.

3rd party games should look better, but to what extent? Especially at launch, they could be minor for all we know. These things need to be more evident in the next couple of months. Right now, X1 has two games at launch that I really want, both @ 1080p60.

theignoramus said:
Do you have a gaming rig? Thats the platform you invest in for 60 fps games, not consoles.

I have an outdated PC that I don't plan to upgrade anytime soon now that the new consoles are coming out. I prefer gaming on consoles, anyways.

Hana-Bi said:
Why not wait then? If you don't like the line-up just don't buy the console at launch.

I don't like the PS4 launch line-up so I will buy it in maybe two years.

And that is what it really comes down to.

I have a PS4 purchase secured for now in case something grabs my attention down the line but man, right now I don't know why I need one at launch. Watch Dogs(also coming to X1) is the only game I can think of. The chance of it being better on the PS4 is the reason I have one preordered, but we don't know if the difference will be substantial enough to merit a purchase over the X1.
 
The Wiiu argument with Simple, cartoony Mario Kart being 1080p and 60fps and not some games on Ps4 is just hilarious given games like Kz SF and most other games on ps4 are way more taxing on hardware and are more relaistic and not kiddy!!! and are still 1080p

None of that Mario Kart talk on Wiiu changes the fact that in term of power Wiiu doesnt come close to true next gen consoles and Digital Foundry and others already stated that Wiiu was similar in power to current gen systems and ps4 was in a different league. You cant compare a Lamborghini to a Honda Civic. They both are cars but a big difference!!!!!!

I feel the point of the Wii U argument is that developers can almost always get a game to run at 60FPS if they really want to. If that means making the game look more stylized and less realistic, so be it. There are some genres where framerate is a pretty big deal, and people should be allowed to criticize developers for throwing gameplay under the bus in favor of eye candy.

Stealth trolling is very conspicuous nevertheless!!!!!

Oh come on.
 
I believe design choice not workaround but hey my opinion, your opinion :)

At this point I think it's clear to say esram is not a workaround, it's a central point of their design. Or putting in another way: They deliberated traded processing power for on chip ram because they saw advantage to it (to their goals, of course).

sorry, you guys are absolutely correct... it was a design choice, and one that would have paid off for them fairly nicely had sony been forced to stay at 4GB due to costs.. my workaround comment more on the situation now.. it alleviates things slightly.. but sony doubling the RAM at the last minute couldn't have hit MS harder... and the worst part about it is that, yup.. at launch and early on that eSRAM will absolutely help MS stay within spitting distance.. but as the gen moves on those differences will become bigger.
 
Going to say, I''m a bit worried. Everything I've seen from PS4 so far (besides Infamous) doesn't look as good as I expected. Obviously they still need to work, but so far Forza was the most impressive thing I've seen (that is actually a real working demo).

How can the Xbone's weaker specs be putting out a better looking game (1080p + 60 FPS) =/

And Drive Club...smh[/QUO Forza is a racing game and isnt hard to make into a 1080p 60fps game thats number one. And Infamous Second Son looks better imo than anything shown especially most of the smoke and mirrors Microsoft used in its E3 which was far from gameplay.

Gran Turismo 5 for the most part is 1080p 60 fps (although it drops on occasion) and thats a ps3 game so Forza being 1080p at 60 fps on next gen console isnt a big thing and something that should wow u!!!! Not to mention Gran Turismo has other effects that Forza Xbone one wont even have and its next gen.
 
Going to say, I''m a bit worried. Everything I've seen from PS4 so far (besides Infamous) doesn't look as good as I expected. Obviously they still need to work, but so far Forza was the most impressive thing I've seen (that is actually a real working demo).

How can the Xbone's weaker specs be putting out a better looking game (1080p + 60 FPS) =/

And Drive Club...smh[/QUO Forza is a racing game and isnt hard to make into a 1080p 60fps game thats number one. And Infamous Second Son looks better imo than anything shown especially most of the smoke and mirrors Microsoft used in its E3 which was far from gameplay.

Gran Turismo 5 for the most part is 1080p 60 fps (although it drops on occasion) and thats a ps3 game so Forza being 1080p at 60 fps on next gen console isnt a big thing and something that should wow u!!!! Not to mention Gran Turismo has other effects that Forza Xbone one wont even have and its next gen.

GT5 is 1440 x 1080p
Forza 5 is 1920 x 1080p
 
Multiple sources confirmed that the XB1 demo was running on the dev-kit hardware, and we'll see the same (if not better) quality and performance on the PS4 version. The problem isn't the hardware on either side of the fence. The problem (re: the performance on these first-party titles) is the studios themselves adjusting a vision into a technically proficient product. There's plenty of time for that to happen, but being less than six months out and having showings like this, there's some understandable trepidation.

But it's not six months out. These builds are likely a bit behind where the games likely are today at the development studios. None of this has gone gold at all. It's not final software. So I understand yes forza was running on 'xbone hardware' are they dev kits or the retail product. I got the sense with the ps4 they were using final hardware so it's an actual test. DF even said in their xbone article that they weren't sure about running the story with the headline given that the hardware stats and details are not final or revealed, as they are on PS4. So it's not really apples to apples. Sony took a risk allowing final hardware to be shown but it is certainly more honest than what Microsoft is doing with their showing.
 
Seems the PS4 does not have the "magic" hardware some people wanted to believe.

By the way it is true that Mario Kart 8 and Smash Bros will be running in 1080p with 60FPS? ;-)

http://youtu.be/1sLVsJNcAks

Mario Kart 8 will be 720p @ 60fps; and it's graphics are a bit more basic too...

WiiU_MarioKart8_scrn02_E3resized.jpg

 
Since when is 30 FPS shit?

As long as there are no slowdowns, I don't see any problem.

It is not, but when you play a lot of games at 60fps, then you go to 30fps it is a bit jarring. Of course I am talking about PC gaming where everything I play is 60fps, so when I play my PS3/360 and play the games at 30fps and even lower at times it is jarring...big time.

But for me, Image quality is just as important and a game like Infamous 2nd Son with the image quality they showed at 30fps is acceptable to me because of the type of game it is. Would I prefer 60 of course, but in certain game like "The Last of Us" 30fps is fine. For games like shooters, racers 60fps is the best way to experience a game.

So no, 30fps is not shit depending on the game and it's image quality.
 
Also I've noticed, which is scary in itself, 60FPS isn't something specific to hardware... It's simply a design decision.

It is not, but when you play a lot of games at 60fps, then you go to 30fps it is a bit jarring. Of course I am talking about PC gaming where everything I play is 60fps, so when I play my PS3/360 and play the games at 30fps and even lower at times it is jarring...big time.

But for me, Image quality is just as important and a game like Infamous 2nd Son with the image quality they showed at 30fps is acceptable to me because of the type of game it is. Would I prefer 60 of course, but in certain game like "The Last of Us" 30fps is fine. For games like shooters, racers 60fps is the best way to experience a game.

So no, 30fps is not shit depending on the game and it's image quality.

I guess I've been getting extremely used to 30FPS on my PC, as I always trade 60 for more bang.
 
How can the Xbone's weaker specs be putting out a better looking game (1080p + 60 FPS) =/

if your only consideration between better looking and worse looking is frame rate..... would like to see the poly counts from a single frame in forza or KI compared to, oh I don't know.. Second Son?
 
Killzone: Shadow Fall currently delivers a largely 25-30FPS experience

Well, I'm out for that game.

I can't really disagree with the sentiment . . . Polish the game up and gimme dat locked 30fps and we're good GG. I am merciful.


I guess I've been getting extremely used to 30FPS on my PC, as I always trade 60 for more bang.

Motion Blur really helps. I can deal with a locked 30fps when playing things like console ports and the like. However in competitive multiplayer I prefer a higher framerate, more responsive gameplay is necessary with a mouse IMO.
 
Good that they kept the controls for Killzone, if I want to play a twitch shooter I would play a twitch shooter. This is coming from someone who had no problems with the controls in Killzone 2.

I do love this part:


God, I hate AI that just immediately goes SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT as soon as they see you even if they are standing in the open and could have made it to cover if they weren't so bloodthirsty. This is good to hear.
 
I feel the point of the Wii U argument is that developers can almost always get a game to run at 60FPS if they really want to. If that means making the game look more stylized and less realistic, so be it. There are some genres where framerate is a pretty big deal, and people should be allowed to criticize developers for throwing gameplay under the bus in favor of eye candy.



Oh come on.

Sony could probably make every game on ps4 1080p at 60fps or beyond!!!!! but the games would lose that graphical fidelity. My point still stands its easier to make certain games 1080p 60fps when their not graphically taxing or just simple compared to complex, realistic looking 3d games. Again If developers on Play station cut corners, made the game a cartoon fest and simple any game could be 1080p 60fps. It still stands its silly to compare a cute racing game like Mario Kart to Killzone or any other game that isnt 1080p 60 fps on Ps4. Gran Turismo 5 on Ps3 is 1080p and hits 60 fps on ps3 but dips on occassion and is a racing game but more complex and visually stunning than Mario Kart will be on Wiu and that speaks volumes.

You dont see any complex 3d game on wiiu 1080p at 60 fps , shit you dont even see them at 1080p 30 fps.
 
At this point I think it's clear to say esram is not a workaround, it's a central point of their design. Or putting in another way: They deliberated traded processing power for on chip ram because they saw advantage to it (to their goals, of course).



It wasn't 60, but a steady 30 with vsync enabled all the time and was running on xbone hardware.


esram is a workaround for the slower DDR3 ram, it is part of the design to compensate for the bandwidth restrictions gained by using DDR3.
 
The KZ games have perfectly normal framerates on PS3, and Shadow Fall is unfinished. Do you think Guerilla are so incompetent as a dev that they don't know how to get rid of input lag if they so choose? It is 100% on purpose. They know people have complained about and addressed it before. That is their style for the KZ series.

I don't think unstable 30fps should be called "perfectly normal", but that's a different matter. Whether or not they're incompetent is surly not for me to decide, I have absolutely no knowledge about programming and technical jibberjabber. The thing is though, that the Killzone games always remind me of old N64 games. That's not meant to be a bash regarding drawing distance, textures etc. It's just that a lot of games on the N64 also had a certain amount of input lag (or at least some weird latency issues) which as far as I remember was caused mostly by the framerate. Killzone has a distinct look, I don't know which rendering techniques they're using in order to achieve it, but my bet is that whatever they're doing is either unoptimized or simply too much. Even with 30fps, the games feel like they're running with 20 at best. Digital Foundry says "the issue is likely to be the result of latency being built up over the course of a long and complex rendering pipeline". I'm willing to believe that.
 
For me if the frame-rate doesn't stay 30+ I get physically sick if I play for more than an hour or two. Although, it does depend on the game. GTA4 makes me sick after about an hour, but TLOU I was fine most of the time I played. On PC, I never get that nauseated feeling since I I have the control to ensure that I get at least 30+.
 
It's a difference of philosophy between MS studios and Sony studios. It says nothing about the hardware.

Sony studios wants to maximize visuals, MS wants to maximize smoothness of user experience across the board, including games, which means no lag, no framerate problems, no IQ problems, no disc switching, no fumbling with controllers etc.

Even with the extra power of the PS4 it sounds like MS gets what us gamers want.
 
if your only consideration between better looking and worse looking is frame rate..... would like to see the poly counts from a single frame in forza or KI compared to, oh I don't know.. Second Son?

Yeah, I know it's not fair to compare a racing game vs an open world like Infamous. And I wasn't. I mean, I did say Infamous was the only impressive thing so far for me (on Son'y side).

You are right though, and I basically answered my own complaints. The other games launching that look worse require a lot more than a racing game. So yeah. I guess I'm just worried that PS4 titles aren't as far along as they should be.
 
Going to say, I''m a bit worried. Everything I've seen from PS4 so far (besides Infamous) doesn't look as good as I expected. Obviously they still need to work, but so far Forza was the most impressive thing I've seen (that is actually a real working demo).

How can the Xbone's weaker specs be putting out a better looking game (1080p + 60 FPS) =/

And Drive Club...smh[/QUO Forza is a racing game and isnt hard to make into a 1080p 60fps game thats number one. And Infamous Second Son looks better imo than anything shown especially most of the smoke and mirrors Microsoft used in its E3 which was far from gameplay.

Gran Turismo 5 for the most part is 1080p 60 fps (although it drops on occasion) and thats a ps3 game so Forza being 1080p at 60 fps on next gen console isnt a big thing and something that should wow u!!!! Not to mention Gran Turismo has other effects that Forza Xbone one wont even have and its next gen.

I kind of told myself not to repeat what I posted in one of the more Pro-MS threads because it seems whenever someone says something positive about the Xbox One that it is attacked and the member is ridiculed, but what the hell...

I was at E3 and I played a lot of games for both the X1 and the PS4 and I can confirm what you are saying. It just seemed to me and many others that when you pick up the controller and you are live in front of the monitor/T.V. that the X1 games just seemed to be cleaner and run better.

I think the standout game for the PS4 was Infamous. It was not running at a high frame rate, but the image quality, animation, the amount of destruction and effects in the game was simply amazing to me and the few that went to E3 with me. Very impressive.

For the X1 it was flat out Forza 5. That game, more than any other game really showed the difference between the current gen and next gen. Even being a PC Gamer with a high end gaming rig, when it comes to racers, Forza 5 even eclipsed the best of the best on the PC. And that is including Project Cars which I update weekly. Forza 5 just had so much going on and the silky 60fps was just impressive.

Now that is not to say I am saying the X1 is better than the PS4. All I am saying and I want to be perfectly clear is this....based on the games I played at E3, in my opinion, the X1 games just seemed more impressive overall when it comes to visuals, frame rate and image quality.
 
This is something that if people had been reading the impressions of those attending e3 they would already have heard about. News flash: ps4 games running on ps4 don't look like the second coming of Christ right now.
I'd go as far as to say wii u games looked more stable and except for a few exceptions, even better.
Hands on e3 experience was a lot different than the conferences would lead you to believe.
 
This is still going on huh? Wow.

Look, for the most part, no 30fps doesn't matter. It's a slight benefit for a few specific genres, but thats about it. The fact of the matter is, that if you have locked hardware specs, eventually you're going to run into compromises, either lower resolutions or lower frame rates.

If that really bugs you, if the very thought of 30fps bothers you, you should be focusing on PC's, not consoles.

As for me, 30fps doesn't bother me. Jaggies, low res textures, and especially micro-stuttering, do.

I mean seriously, most the games we've been playing for the past 3-4 years have been running at sub-HD, and 30fps or less. I haven't liked it, but most people haven't noticed. If we get solidly HD resolutions, and solid 30fps as a standard for this generation, it'll be a marked improvement.
 
I can't give props to MS yet, since Forza has no Day/Night Cycle, which is a HUGE letdown! Killer Instinct looks awesome though.

I think that's the sacrifice for 60fps, more optimization in one situation.
Salute for them.. I don't think any open world game will run 60fps in both console.
 
Can someone link me to the video of Drive Club that looks so bad?

Literally the only thing MS did right this E3 was playing the numbers game. It doesn't mean much outside gaming enthusiast forums, but it's working brilliantly.

We've known now since Feb. that Killzone and Driveclub were shooting for 1080p at 30fps. MS saw the tech specs of the PS4, they were just as surprised as anyone else, and did two things to shift the talk: praise the power of the cloud (done at the X1 reveal) and declare their games to be 60fps at 1080p (done at E3).

They did this by showcasing two games- Killer Instinct, who's small arena and somewhat simple character models was able to achieve 60fps easily (with a very impressive particle engine), and Forza 5, who's lighting engine was painfully bad on the 360, let alone the X1, which decidedly factors into not having night/weather/time change races. Despite all that F5 still leaves a much better impression than Driveclub.

Think about it- MS didn't declare "60fps, because it's next gen yall!" for the casual gamers watching. Dudebro doesn't know what the heck a 60fps game is. There are people in this forum who can't tell the difference between 30/60. It was a direct shot at people who love playing the console wars card. It was a bulletpoint against the PS4 games running at 30fps (i.e. the launch lineup). EA declares Battlefield 4 to be 60fps on the X1, then goes on to show it running on a PC...which they later said was spec'd to X1 standards, which is complete bullshit. I can imagine an EA dev saying to the team, "wow guys, this footage of B4 running on ultra high settings is gorgeous for the big MS conference that will be watched by millions. But let's downgrade it a bit to the X1 standards because I don't want to mislead the consumer or anything."

I've read a few articles here and there about Sony 1st party devs transitioning from the Cell to the PS4, and how it proved to be a challenge at first- all the tricks of developing for the Cell and the PS3 architecture don't really apply to the PS4 at all. Devs who are comfortable with PC architecture (almost all third party devs) will make the transition fairly smoothly as they already have their bag of tricks from working on this type of system for years now. While overcoming the new transition from PS3 to PS4 shouldn't take nearly as long as it did to shine that Cell up, it will be for Evolution and Guerrilla Games who have launch deadlines to meet. One of the Driveclub leads said they're targeting 60fps, but he personally preferred 30fps with a lot of awesome stuff on the screen. That would have likely been the end goal had it not been the smart play by MS of declaring 60fps as the target for all next gen games...and it wouldn't surprise me if Sony is telling Evolution to up that framerate now.

Look at the third party situation on PS4- Watchdogs, Assassin's Creed, Need for Speed, The Division, all running on PS4 and looking fantastic at E3, arguably more so than the first party titles at this point. For all I know these too are running on PC devkits spec'd to ultra settings (I believe all EA games were at E3). But I do think that, when the PS4 launches, the showpieces of the system will ultimately come from third parties. They know how to work the hardware.

Ultimately the comparisons between third party multiplatform games for PS4/XB1 are going to be extremely interesting. I think MS might have bit off a bit more than they can chew with the 60fps goals they have in mind. At the same time it's caught the 1st party games off balance, who's 30fps goals look decidedly last gen. This is a temporary launch issue, and I feel like most devs will be back with 30fps games by next year, but it's a pretty weird situation right now. At the very least, it's the one thing that MS has done right in portraying their console's power.

MS is a master of manipulating through clever use of numbers and other facts.
 
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