Why can't the industry give us more games like TLoU?
- Thread starter the_id
- Start date
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
There's a reason those games are amazing. It's because not everyone can create something like that. If they did then the bar would only be raised higher and then there would still only be a few games that are standouts.
I do agree that ND really hit it out of the park and actually approached Valve level design. The controllable segments where you walk/traverse to the next major encounter while watching conversations and character bits are also reminiscent of Valve games, as solidsnake was saying.
In fact, I think they were more welcome here than in any other game perhaps. In Uncharted, those segments felt like filler, and even in Valve games they occasionally feel like cutscenes in everything but name, but in the Last of Us, they serve a valuable pacing purpose, providing downtime from the tense combat sections and giving the player room to breathe. I played through the game in the same marathon manner I play most games and, without breaks between playtimes, those seemingly empty walking sections allowed me to actually keep playing without feeling actively stressed.
In fact, I think they were more welcome here than in any other game perhaps. In Uncharted, those segments felt like filler, and even in Valve games they occasionally feel like cutscenes in everything but name, but in the Last of Us, they serve a valuable pacing purpose, providing downtime from the tense combat sections and giving the player room to breathe. I played through the game in the same marathon manner I play most games and, without breaks between playtimes, those seemingly empty walking sections allowed me to actually keep playing without feeling actively stressed.
SolidSnakex
Member
Half Life is their legacy. That's the game people think of when you mention their name. That series really isn't that different from TLoU in terms of its overall approach. And there are plenty of tools at you disposal in TLoU. The gameplay is quite flexible because of that, unlike Uncharted which is meant to be played purely as a shooter and there really isn't much wiggle room for anything else.
Not really. When I played the game I only used guns as a last option because you have such limited ammo and shooting gives away your position. Shooting is just one of many options and usually far from the best one. The game is definitely not a shooter.
I disagree. Production values are very linked to budget.
And the budget for the Last of Us was much lower than most AAA games...
Therefore the point that not everyone can make a game of that quality still stands.
Because what you're saying is wrong.
Naughty Dog excels at packaging familiar mechanics in a 'the whole is better than the sum of the parts' way where the entire package is fun.
And it's a zombie apocalypse. They weren't trying to be original in source. They were trying to tell a story of survival between two people that mattered. And I think an ending like TLOU hasn't been seen in a video game before.
Raitosaito
Member
And the fact that Naughty Dog has a much shorter dev cycle than most devs too. They're efficient, and for a good reason.
And this is still a testament to Naughty Dog's development skill
I wouldn't compare the two at all. The sheer fun of using the Gravity Gun and the different ways you can use it in game is unrivalled.
I've not played TLOU nor do I intend to, but I'd say the game is essentially the stealth elements from UC 2 only an entire game based around those mechanics.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
you can't just throw tons of money at a game and expect it to automatically be amazing... there are too many examples of this
design talent, development skill, efficiency, etc all make a greater impact on a game than money. any game can have high production values, but its what they accomplish that sets it apart.
Green Yoshi
Member
I would say the budget was higher than for Bioshock Infinite.
Of course, GTA V, Halo 4 and Call of Duty have much higher budgets (marketing included), but it still has a AAA budget.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
There are games on the PC that offer great experiences too. The problem is they don't get the exposure something like TLoU do because of how widely known Naughty Dog is. The other problem is most of these high profile studios are often left with the task of selling hardware and new ip's are a greater risk. I almost feel sorry for Hideo Kojima who can't seem to get away from MGS and is likely being pushed by Konami. I would love to see good studios and well known talent get behind new ip's more.
People want new Uncharted games and they are safer bets, I want new games like TLoU more. It's great to see they are allowed that flexibility but Naughty Dog is now split into two studios aren't they?
Thankfully we have different pricing models for games on consoles now. A game like Braid got a lot of exposure which led to The Witness which is a larger investment. That is where I expect most of the innovation to come from, the smaller guys (and gals) who have something to prove and the budgets are a lot smaller.
People want new Uncharted games and they are safer bets, I want new games like TLoU more. It's great to see they are allowed that flexibility but Naughty Dog is now split into two studios aren't they?
Thankfully we have different pricing models for games on consoles now. A game like Braid got a lot of exposure which led to The Witness which is a larger investment. That is where I expect most of the innovation to come from, the smaller guys (and gals) who have something to prove and the budgets are a lot smaller.
Valve ushered in a new era of cinematic single player games. Hopefully TLoU closes the door on that same era. Until someone comes up with a way to algorithmically generate storylines the AAA game is going to stagnate. The scripts might get better, the motion capture more lifelike and the graphics more impressive, but the game design hasn't gone anywhere.
We've got our Oscar worthy game story. Fantastic work, everyone. Let's move on.
We've got our Oscar worthy game story. Fantastic work, everyone. Let's move on.
Raitosaito
Member
You made assumptions on a game you haven't played?
The Bookerman
Member
Publishers and Investors are insecure little brats. They don't like risks. Especially with the budgets AAA games require.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
Thats not true at all. The stealth mechanics are much more fleshed out and on top of that you have different types of enemies and situations to deal with. Theres quite a lot of ways to approach encounters unlike Uncharteds stealth which had one rigid way of stealthing through an area every now and then. Plus you can go back to stealth after the shooting starts, unlike UC. My only issue with the stealth in tlou is that you can exploit the enemies in really stupid ways at times.
Rogue_Ledr
Banned
/Thread
Woo-Fu
Banned
That is entirely subjective. I found the grav gun to be a boring gimmick used to showcase the physics in Source.
I've read comments from the more rational posters on this site. The critiscm from Glam FM and Shinta etc. I've seen gameplay footage, read Polygons more reserved review.
These are the things I have to do when it comes to ND, to see through the hyperbole. And I'm confident game developers making more games like this would make me lose all interest in gaming.
Edit. That's not to say these games shouldn't exist for the people who like them. But I just can't see my fav developers making them as they're much more ambitious IMO.
JordanLMiller
Member
I'd rather we get less. I can't wait for videogames to stop trying to be movies.
SolidSnakex
Member
You're just wasting your time. I wouldn't have even bothered if I knew that he was making all these claims without ever even playing TLoU.
Air Zombie Meat
Member
There is a lot of hyperbole, true. But theres also posts like yours claiming it's just post apocalypse Uncharted. It's something I was worried about before I played the game but thankfully thats not the case. A lot of the common complaints about Uncharted just don't apply here imo.
Writing? C'mon, plenty of games have comparable and even better writing, lets not go nuts here.
I'd snap the disc in half if it was the case
Very few studious can truly do what they want, Naughty Dog i imagine is allowed and given much more rope than most first party developers.
That and...well they are very very good at what they do. There is a certain confidence when they make a game that it is going to be good and there will be tons of attention to the smallest details
That and...well they are very very good at what they do. There is a certain confidence when they make a game that it is going to be good and there will be tons of attention to the smallest details
Really? I feeling like Infinite was in development forever, with a huge team behind it.
Think you and the other guy are missing the point. You're interacting with the game by killing or avoiding killing dudes. Saying you can punch dudes to death or avoid having to punch/shoot dudes to death doesn't really counter the problem I have with the game or people's desire to have more games like this.
AgentChris
Member
Wow.
NightAntilli
Banned
Although TLOU is a great game with a great story, it's hardly one of emotional ones that stands out. Only the first 15 minutes does this, the rest is less impressive. TLOU is, just like UC2, overrated in my opinion. It's just the hype of the moment. For one, story-wise, something like The Walking Dead is pretty much superior in every way. Red Dead Redemption also rivals it pretty easily. Generally, I think no games can ever come close to either point+click games and RPGs in terms of emotion and stories.
The industry doesn't really lack emotional games. Sometimes the overwhelming emotional experiences get overshadowed by a small aspect of the game like in Mass Effect 3, sometimes people don't like the twists, and sometimes it doesn't end happily.
What I do like about TLOU is the moral aspect at the end. Joel is such an ass, although we clearly understand why. But he
It's an interesting ending, but, I don't consider it to be among the best or most emotional stories in gaming. Just an above average one.
The industry doesn't really lack emotional games. Sometimes the overwhelming emotional experiences get overshadowed by a small aspect of the game like in Mass Effect 3, sometimes people don't like the twists, and sometimes it doesn't end happily.
What I do like about TLOU is the moral aspect at the end. Joel is such an ass, although we clearly understand why. But he
lies to Ellie and completely disrespects what she wanted, for his own feelings/desires. The fireflies probably never asked Ellie if she was willing to die either, but, she did seem like she would make the sacrifice.
Everything I've seen and read about the game to me just doesn't come off as comparable to Valve, or the other developers I quoted, as they're more interested in gameplay systems rather then telling a story. Hence why they wouldn't make a game like this IMO.
Dan Whiteheads recent article about how he preferred State of Decays approach to survival action also summarised my thoughts on these kind of games.
I wouldn't personally have Bioshock Infinite, HL2 & Uncharted 2 in the list, but to each their own.
Now on topic, I understand your point however it would be impossible to have every game as good as TLoU. That would be like asking why every movie can't be as good as The Matrix.
Now on topic, I understand your point however it would be impossible to have every game as good as TLoU. That would be like asking why every movie can't be as good as The Matrix.
SolidSnakex
Member
So, exactly why are you ignoring all the people that are praising TLoU's gameplay and given very detailed descriptions of why that is? Just in this thread alone you have traveler detailing the differences between Uncharted and TLoU as well as pointing out how it's much closer to something like Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory. You seem to only value the opinions of those that reinforce your own perception of what it is even though those opinions are in the extreme minority.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Last of Us is just one style of storytelling in videogames. There are various ways you can tell an engaging story. I believe that all games can be denominated into one of seven pillars of storytelling
EMOTIONAL (like dis if u cry evrytim)
- Metal Gear Solid 3 Subsistence
- The Walking Dead
- The Last of Us
- Red Dead Redemption
- Lost Odyssey
INTELLECTUAL (so deep.)
- Metal Gear Solid 2 Substance
- Planescape Torment
- Bioshock Infinite
- Deus Ex
- Spec Ops The Line
ABSTRACT (left to your own interpretations)
- Silent Hill 2
- Dark Souls
- Shadow of the Collossus
- Hotline Miami
- Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne
WORLD BUILDING (has a main conflict but spends hours showing you the big picture)
- Fallout New Vegas
- Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines
- Final Fantasy X
- Mass Effect
- Half-Life 2
CLEAR CUT (good guy. bad guy.)
- Super Mario Bros.
- System Shock 2
- Call of Duty 4
- Splinter Cell Chaos Theory
- The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
IMPLICIT (the story is the game)
- Madden
- Tetris
- World of Warcraft
- Counter-Strike
- Age of Empires 2
STUPID
- Final Fantasy XIII
- Any fighting game story that's just an excuse for a tournament
EMOTIONAL (like dis if u cry evrytim)
- Metal Gear Solid 3 Subsistence
- The Walking Dead
- The Last of Us
- Red Dead Redemption
- Lost Odyssey
INTELLECTUAL (so deep.)
- Metal Gear Solid 2 Substance
- Planescape Torment
- Bioshock Infinite
- Deus Ex
- Spec Ops The Line
ABSTRACT (left to your own interpretations)
- Silent Hill 2
- Dark Souls
- Shadow of the Collossus
- Hotline Miami
- Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne
WORLD BUILDING (has a main conflict but spends hours showing you the big picture)
- Fallout New Vegas
- Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines
- Final Fantasy X
- Mass Effect
- Half-Life 2
CLEAR CUT (good guy. bad guy.)
- Super Mario Bros.
- System Shock 2
- Call of Duty 4
- Splinter Cell Chaos Theory
- The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
IMPLICIT (the story is the game)
- Madden
- Tetris
- World of Warcraft
- Counter-Strike
- Age of Empires 2
STUPID
- Final Fantasy XIII
- Any fighting game story that's just an excuse for a tournament
AgentChris
Member
Pokemon games have good writing as well.
NightAntilli
Banned
I'm glad Black & White picked up the pace, but they still need to improve a lot. The mystery dungeon games however, are highly emotional. No one expects that from Pokemon games.
I can't tell if this post is serious or not. The Last of Us is very different from how Uncharted plays. Calling it zombie uncharted without further analysis or reasoning just proves how ignorant you are.
Majmun
Member
But...it isn't
AgentChris
Member
Try harder at least.
The_Hitcher89
Member
Bingo.
amstradcpc
Member
Yeah and God of War is a pinball game.
In that case, 90% of Naughty Dog games are trash
Alebrije
Member
Agree , yo can find form PS1 to PS3 games that Nintendo and MS do not offer a lot like.
ICO , SOTC , FLOWER , JOURNEY...
Sony is more open to give different expriences.
Thats a fairly specific list there, OP, the thread seems to assume that your idea of what represents the high watermark of gaming applies to all. For example, Metal Gear is a bit of an acquired taste, for a start- I thought its story and musings on war and soldiers are bloated and barely comprehensible at best, and that the games are better when they aren't trying to wrap a story around the core gameplay. Same goes for FFVII- maybe it loses something in translation but I loved the themes, artwork and setting, but found the story to be a mess.
Not everyone wants story-driven action games, I don't mind them but I'm also quite happy with games that don't pretend to be films and barely have stories at all, and are unashamed of it. I don't even need my games to be innovative or show technical achievement.
Often refining what has gone before is still worth doing, and plenty of awesome games haven't been cinematic ones.
If the question is 'why aren't all story-driven action games all like the really good ones in that genre', then I agree with posts upthread- some studios are just have better staff, more funding or stronger ideas etc than others.
That's the important part.
RustyNails
Member
It's OK to say games like TLoU do not tickle your fancy and leave it at that. It's a perfectly valid answer. But it's plain fanboy dickery to say the game is "little more than X game combined with Y" without even playing any of the games in your sentence.