As long as Nintendo shares this opinion with you they are doomed.
Are developers phasing out Wii U on purpose?
- Thread starter Spoo
- Start date
As long as Nintendo shares this opinion with you they are doomed.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I didn't say "next to no effort," but modern, scalable engines help with that, and assets/draw distance/etc can be reduced in quality. It's not like nobody has ever done it before, it's one of the basic "features" of PC gaming. If the sales are there the effort would be worth it.
And honestly, I'm not trying to be "pro-Nintendo" here, but I think blaming the hardware power is pointing to an effect and not the cause. Nintendo very well could be stuck between a rock and a hard place with third parties if they can't sell the major third party releases they do get. Those are already few and far between.
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
I'd think part of it is that it's so underpowered vs. PS4/X1 that ports would be a challenge.
Then again, that doesn't explain why its not getting ports of recent/remaining PSX3/360 games.
Then again, that doesn't explain why its not getting ports of recent/remaining PSX3/360 games.
JordanN
Banned
In my case, I didn't care if it helps since my problem was Nintendo's hardware being a bottleneck to developers.
And I'm only blaming the hardware because it's relevant to how developers even approach Nintendo. Deliberately making a console far weaker than everyone else and having no sales to back just shows how unfriendly a machine it is to anyone but first parties.
Lucent
Member
What the hell are you talking about? Seriously...what am I reading? How are they nullified? It sounds like you're saying "all games need to move to being movie-like experiences. If there are "kiddy" games still being made then progress is still not there." And that is stupid. What about the constant milking of Call of Duty? How's that different from making a lot of Mario games? The difference is that Mario games tend to be fun and something you can chill with. Talking about innovation, have you tried Mario Galaxy at all?
Graphics and storytelling are not the only ways to innovate. Gameplay is the major factor for me. It even has the word GAME in it. Mario will probably never have a deep story but it doesn't really need to. There can still be games like The Last of Us and stuff, but there always NEEDS to be games like what Nintendo puts out. I'd go insane if absolutely every game was like a movie or full of blood and seriousness. I need my humor and chill games and ones that are meant to be played as little or as much as you want.
Like someone else said, I'm seriously glad not everyone thinks the way you do.
I believe that all depends on what needs to be scaled back.
Modern engines are very scalable but I still don't believe you can port a game like Dead Rising 3 over to the Wii-U without severe cut-backs which could affect the gameplay/design of the game.
Master Nairb
Member
I think you might underestimate the amount of families that enjoy and still play video games specifically designed for young children. I have countless friends who have kids under 10 years old now. All these families have Wii and love playing the mario games, the same way we played them as children. They don't want games like The Last of Us just like they don't want movies like Saw or other mature and violent forms of entertainment. Children like playing games that are colorful, bright, cute, and do not have complex stories. It's similar to how cartoons are. From a gamer's perspective, they are also great teaching tools for young kids to understand games so when they are older they might be willing to try more mature games. Kids don't start reading 'Moby Dick' - they start with 'The Berenstein Bears.'
And also, Video games are becoming more and more accepted already, without having to demolish a genre designed for playful fun. If you look in the last 15 years, look how much more money is being thrown at the industry because it keeps expanding. I feel as gamers, we tend to think that we are outcasts because a few critics laugh at our hobby. More people play and respect video games then we think. Also, on a personal level I don't care if video games don't become more accepted by our culture - it's what I do for fun.
Third party developers are the least important group in the world to Nintendo.
N64: Stuck with Cartridges
Gamecube: Created tiny discs
Wii: While developers were gearing up for next-gen engines, Nintendo overclocks a gamecube
Wii U: While developers are gearing up for next-gen engines, Nintendo provides a weak CPU and generally lackluster hardware including a slow GPU, only 1 GB of usable RAM, minuscule storage space.
I cannot blame them outright. MS and Sony have huge libraries of products to keep them afloat while Nintendo needs to rely nearly solely on videogame software and hardware. The original Wii was a great idea, the Wii U could have been great as well, but they miscalculated the excitement a tablet style controller would generate. If they had scrapped that and put the added cost towards a beefier CPU and GPU, you may have more third party support.
Wii U is cheapest only if you rule out the PS3/360 (both of which are already clobbering it sales-wise). PS3/360 are likely to have significant price drops of their own along with killer Black Friday bundles and all the same game releases.
If consumers want the best value they'll go with a PS3 or 360, if they want the best graphics they'll pick the PS4/Xbone. Wii U is stuck in this weird middle area that doesn't really appeal to anyone.
JordanN
Banned
Ok, I think I'm being too complicated with this.
So Nintendo's hardware is not a problem for game development? So then, why has Sony and Microsoft made the PS4/XBO not exact clones of PS3/360?
I'm very frustrated trying to think, if Wii U's hardware was never a problem, like none, why do we have a next gen?
Developers were asking for 8GB of ram for Sony but why? If they're not satisfied with the PS3/360, why would they be with Wii U?
So Nintendo's hardware is not a problem for game development? So then, why has Sony and Microsoft made the PS4/XBO not exact clones of PS3/360?
I'm very frustrated trying to think, if Wii U's hardware was never a problem, like none, why do we have a next gen?
Developers were asking for 8GB of ram for Sony but why? If they're not satisfied with the PS3/360, why would they be with Wii U?
PS3, 360 >= Wii U =< PS4, XBOne
The Wii U is in a shithole. It has to not only fight the looming twin titans of PS4 and XBone, But it has to directly compete with a strong and healthy PS3 and a steady 360 as well on the tail end.
You're only going to buy this system for Nintendo exclusives.... and I believe more than 80% of sales are going to be in tandem with another system. You aren't going to have the Wii U as the only game system in your household. That will NEVER exist as in a gaming household. There is too much a consumer would miss out on in that instance.
Developers didn't fuck up, Nintendo did point blank. They didn't market the system correctly at all. They don't know who to focus on and that what has their advertising in a wreck right now.
Had they created a system with comparable specs or even a system that was clearly a full 5 notches above this gen (and didn't straddle the lines trying to blur it...) We'd be having a completely different discussion right now.
A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT discussion.
The Wii U is in a shithole. It has to not only fight the looming twin titans of PS4 and XBone, But it has to directly compete with a strong and healthy PS3 and a steady 360 as well on the tail end.
You're only going to buy this system for Nintendo exclusives.... and I believe more than 80% of sales are going to be in tandem with another system. You aren't going to have the Wii U as the only game system in your household. That will NEVER exist as in a gaming household. There is too much a consumer would miss out on in that instance.
Developers didn't fuck up, Nintendo did point blank. They didn't market the system correctly at all. They don't know who to focus on and that what has their advertising in a wreck right now.
Had they created a system with comparable specs or even a system that was clearly a full 5 notches above this gen (and didn't straddle the lines trying to blur it...) We'd be having a completely different discussion right now.
A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT discussion.
It's odd how some people seem to have a hard time grasping this.
Who is logically saying that the hardware isn't part of the problem? It most certainly is.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Right. And I'm saying I don't think the hardware power has a [edit: significant, for clarification purposes] direct impact on sales. Games and features do and those are where the WiiU is lacking, just as much as it is in hardware capabilities (if not more).
Very few people (though it could be a vocal minority here) buy a console because it has "so many gigaflops!" If the WiiU were equal to the PS4 with the same sales it has right now, Nintendo's situation with third parties would not be any different than it currently is.
It goes back to the issue of whether or not people would use Nintendo's platform as their primary console, and what Nintendo has to do to make that happen. If customers aren't buying third party games on the system, regardless of how powerful it is, third parties aren't going to support it. With the Gamecube, people didn't, that's why it missed out on numerous ports (granted a handful of open world games and such could blame disc capacity) and got crappy versions of many ports it did receive despite the hardware capability.
Edit: I guess the point I'm making isn't clear. I'm specifically referring to getting and maintaining strong third party support, not ease of porting/development, and not selling consoles to the end user (although it does all come together at the end). Software sales are what is going to get third parties on the system, first and foremost.
If money is on the table, it's going to be taken. Nintendo's problem is that the money is not on the table, and I don't think the hardware capability is the underlying reason for that. More powerful hardware could help drive interest of early adopters which could be beneficial for long term support as long as those early adopters stick around, but it's not a magic bullet by any means, at all.
JordanN
Banned
See the previous page.
Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner.
Wii was way more fucking underpowered compared to PS360, yet that still got "ports" (whether actual ports or similar games in the same franchise with the same name). So you guys saying its a hardware shortcoming have no idea what you are talking about. I mean even Vita and 3DS get "ports".
The issue has already been summed up a dozen times in this thread. Shitty console sales plus lack of first party support in their own console are the equivalent of a gaming STD. That's it, plain and simple.
Support is (finally) ramping up slightly from Nintendo. If/as console sales go up as a result, 3rd party support and sales will go up similarly. If sales soar, 3rd part support will boom. If sales remain flat, 3rd party support will continue to trickle. At this point it's up to Nintendo to sell their system, but certainly we have tons of examples of much lesser hardware still getting support and "ports".
You are talking apples to oranges here. Power of hardware != complexities of hardware. Sure the PS4 and XBONE are more powerful. But that fact doesn't make the Wii U more difficult to develop for. And your question about PS4 and XBONE is even more interesting, as this generation is unquestionably one of the weakest "pure horsepower" transitions we've EVER had between generations, even WITH Sony's last minute RAM doubling. And heck, you can't really even talk about "no they can't port x launch title" because all launch titles are either exclusive, OR also releasing on PS369 as well which COULD thus be ported.
Nothing along your line of reasoning makes sense. If the title is exclusive to PS4 or XBONE, arguing about ithe ability to bring it to Wii U is pointless. And if it's not exclusive to one of those, then it almost certainly (this year) has a version coming to PS360 as well that old easily be ported to Wii U.
Beyond that, many titles we saw at E3 (FFXV and KH3 for example) even started out on the current gen.
I mean look.. I'm not saying the Wii U isn't being ignored by 3rd parties. I'm just pointing out that the reason you guys are saying its being ignored (weaker hardware than PS4 and XBONE) makes no sense when you put it into the current context pre-launch of those consoles by 12 months.
Pricing challenges? Absolutely. Lack of first party support/drive? Most certainly. Underpowered hardware? Certainly hasn't been the problem for the first 12 months of the system's life for the first 12 months it is the most powerful hardware yet has the worst support. Clearly there is a different (and thus much bigger) problem(s) here.
tassletine
Member
Depends what the budget of your game is (indie developers have left xboxlive in droves) but right now none of the next gen consoles are a sound bet for a med/big budget game.
In fact only NIntendo has a guaranteed install base due to the franchises. Now that install base might not be huge, but it is there, so if you produced a game with that limited (but guaranteed) audience in mind, it would almost certainly be profitable as long as you didn't spend too much money and priced it right.
As we've seen with the games already out on the Wii-U, nothing is guaranteed, especially sales. That head start of an install base is pointless if the owners don't buy games.
The unfortunate problem with your logical take on things is that these developers are working on games for two unreleased systems, one of which gets serious negative press from all sides near daily. Financially, those two aren't sound choices yet either.
Developers work on the hardware with the most bells and whistles unless someone tells them not to. When someone tells them not to, they try to move to a studio where they can have all the bells and whistles again.
There just aren't many people working in development right now that are not independents that want to make games for anything other than the absolute bleeding edge of hardware. They'll tell you that right to your face. And bleeding edge to them has nothing to do with control schemes or innovative gameplay hooks... it has to do with graphics and physics that make games more "real" and more like movies.
Nintendo fucked itself over when it adopted this lead from behind approach in most facets of game development. Motion control, failed to be adopted and was instead superseded by MS and Kinect.
Second screen capability, didn't really get showcased on the Wii U yet and already MS/Sony have promised their own version.
As it comes to now why would anyone want a Nintendo console aside from the handful of Nintendo games, the majority of which are no longer the pinnacle of graphics/gameplay anyway? Are you really going to say Donkey Kong Tropical Breeze moves the industry forward as opposed to a Mirrors Edge, Portal, type game.
A project Spark will move the industry forward, not another Mario sidescroller. Forza probably has as many fans now as Mario Kart.
I'm a Nintendo fan at heart since the NES days, but this was inevitable. They are now operating solely on nostalgic value of past fans as opposed to offering any new fans value over their competitors. When push comes to shove the majority of new millenial gamers now would rather have Destiny, GTA V, Infamous and other games to play than another Mario.
Second screen capability, didn't really get showcased on the Wii U yet and already MS/Sony have promised their own version.
As it comes to now why would anyone want a Nintendo console aside from the handful of Nintendo games, the majority of which are no longer the pinnacle of graphics/gameplay anyway? Are you really going to say Donkey Kong Tropical Breeze moves the industry forward as opposed to a Mirrors Edge, Portal, type game.
A project Spark will move the industry forward, not another Mario sidescroller. Forza probably has as many fans now as Mario Kart.
I'm a Nintendo fan at heart since the NES days, but this was inevitable. They are now operating solely on nostalgic value of past fans as opposed to offering any new fans value over their competitors. When push comes to shove the majority of new millenial gamers now would rather have Destiny, GTA V, Infamous and other games to play than another Mario.
Lucent
Member
Yeah they didn't grow up with the games we started with. I'm actually glad I was born during the year of the NES. Heh.
But like you said, Nintendo really is putting a lot of stock in their established franchises. They will have a lot of solid first party games I'm sure, but if they want to sell to more than their fans, they need to provide a platform that will attract third party developers so they can get more consoles out there.
I love that they're doing their own thing, but motion controls and a second screen are not enough now. Sony and Microsoft are jumping in that, too. So Nintendo needs to really step it up with their next home console.
As a side note, I really am impressed with the visuals they've been able to put out with their first party games so far. Smash Bros U and Mario Kart 8 look great and it's because of their art style that they can make it look so good despite a weaker console than PS4/XB1.
JordanN
Banned
When I first entered this thread, I said Nintendo made consoles that exclude third parties. The lack of sales also hurts it, but I still believe the lack of hardware also does a big disservice.
PS4/XBO are launching soon and neither system are on par with PS3/360. This to me says, for the next 5 years (starting now), that's the type of hardware that they want to support.
How can developers be blamed at this point when Nintendo made the same mistake they've been doing since the N64? Making hardware that excludes third parties.
I'm pretty knowledgeable in this having played Game Dev Story on my iphone. If a console doesn't have a big enough install base, it's not profitable to release games on it. Better to wait for the base to increase.
Having said that, Nintendo is not very good at wooing developers with their tech specs. Seems they are always limited with console technology since the N64.
Having said that, Nintendo is not very good at wooing developers with their tech specs. Seems they are always limited with console technology since the N64.
Exactly. Nintendo is in a tough spot, not just from next gen but from current gen consoles. I think Nintendo is going to have a harder time fighting current gen, a cheap PS3 and Xbox 360 this holiday with GTAV is going to do gang-fucking-busters. Wii U's are going to collect dust, they're line-up is weak as hell.
But your entire argument falls flat on its face when you take into account that 360 and PS3 games will still continue to be published for the short term after those consoles release as well.
JordanN
Banned
So because consoles from last gen (which did support developers hardware needs and sales) are getting games, Wii U (a console intended to be next gen but has weak hardware and no sales) should?
Chinpoko_Master
Member
The amount of delusion coming from Nintendo fans lately has truly been astounding. It's like they're slowly going insane as reality closes in around them. I would laugh, but it's more sad than it is funny.
The meltdowns in the coming future as things get worse for the Wii U are going to be legendary, I can feel it.
The meltdowns in the coming future as things get worse for the Wii U are going to be legendary, I can feel it.
I don't know if GAF can take it, the NPD's in late 2013 and early 2014 are going to be Nintendo fan graveyards.
ecosse_011172
Gold Member
Is this a serious post?
You really think the dudebros games adored by teenage boys are somehow more mature than Nintendo games?
Problem is, the Wii, while underpowered, sold because of its novelty. Nintendo did a fantastic job marketing it, it was very affordable at a time where disposable income in America was high (although about to fall off a cliff)...it was everywhere: Regis & Kelly, Good Morning America, etc. Everyone was doing demos of Wii Sports, the media was in a frenzy over it.
That being said - it still didn't get top-tier multiplatform games. Name any multiplatform game and it either didn't arrive for Wii or didn't sell as well as other versions because of what I would identify are two primary issues: 1) the installed base was not the audience for traditional "AAA" gaming titles, and 2) eventually, the cost of developing another game on a platform with markedly different specifications.
Saying that the Wii U's hardware "won't be a problem" is not true. First, the installed base isn't there, which is a problem on its own, but the other issue is the hardware. Games that developers wish to realize - not just graphics, but all of the immersion style stuff we're hearing from Ubisoft about Watch_Dogs - just simply won't be possible on the Wii U the more that the generation wears on. Add to that the fact that the Wii U has a criminally inferior online network, and you have a recipe for disaster.
SuperEpicGuy
Banned
They still have to work in order to port it and some developers are lazy as f*ck (ahem dark souls I am looking at you) to port games and there aren't that many people who have a wii u so it's kinda pointless to port games to it. Also nintendo doesn't support the third party studios much. Plus, with the next generation inbound, there's not much point making games for older systems (I am assuming they have all mostly finished their engines for the xbox360/ps3). Finally the xbone/ps4 all have a x86 architecture so it would take much more work to port it onto wii u AND you would have to create low res textures and tweak it a lot.
DragonSworne
Banned
Metallix87
Member
How, exactly? Guns and violence and explosions don't necessarily mean "mature". If anything, they're more immature.
DragonSworne
Banned
Are Mario, Yoshi, and Kirby more mature than Call of Duty?
Is Smash Bros more mature than Dead of Alive?
The only games that are more mature are Zelda, Metroid, and their second tier franchises like wars and fire emblem. Out of these, Nintendo only shows interest in Zelda yet they have decided to remake the least mature Zelda game in the series.
Played Infinite, found it mediocre as all hell. Nice art and atmosphere, creative setting and premise, okay-ish story with above average voice acting, but its greatest accomplishment as a game its greatest accomplishment is not being offensively bad. It's a high water mark for polish and budget, but it does nothing to advance the medium. At all.
I reserve the right to be grumpy about The Last of Us because it's "cinematic."
PdotMichael
Banned
Because porting a PS3/360 engine to the WiiU isn't cheap either.
It isn't worth the work.
Did third parties pull out of PS3 as fast when it had similar tie ratio to the Wii U its first summer?
from gamasutra
Metallix87
Member
Yes, since they don't resort to guns and violence and sex to sell their experiences. That stuff primarily appeals to pre-teens who seek to prove how "mature" they are to their peers. The reality is, at least as far as I'm concerned, maturity in games comes from NOT resorting to the same lowest common denominator definition for "Mature games".
As C. S. Lewis famously said: "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
pieatorium
Member
They were already heavily invested in the HD systems.
They certainly weren't happy
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/activision-ceo-steps-up-his-calls-for-ps3-price-cu/1100-1453/
Bobby Kotick said:
I already explained earlier in this thread why devs didn't jump ship on the ps3 during those early days. The investments were already made for the system, so development continued along with raised support for 360 ports.
The situation is completely different with the Wii-U.
I didn't see you post a source for that unless I missed it. Even if it is true it means that after selling 100 million consoles developers still didn't bother to invest in Nintendo's next system and are willing to write it off much sooner too. I wouldn't be surpised it is true, but I would be surprised if any game site was willing to investigate to see if it is.
Their system still did not align with their development cycle. The Wii U is not the kind of console to assist developers in the direction they want to go in.
I think even with that success Nintendo was still not looking too good with the third parties. And I also don't think it's so much writing off but more of a "wait and see" type of feeling. The WiiU has to prove to be worth investing in.
This maybe a little far reaching, but I feel developers are also waiting for more cues from Nintendo: what other ways are they going to use the WiiU Pad? What type of games are they going to make? What formula will be successful? Can we go after that same audience successfully? It's safer that way.
Manmademan
Member
Read your article again. The tie ratio between the WiiU and the PS3 might be the same, but the sales pattern is not. The WiiU spiked early, much higher than the PS3, then proceeded to sell absolutely nothing for months. Edit: the article also notes that a significant percentage (maybe 20%) of the titles that account for that tie ratio are nintendo's own titles like New Super Mario Brothers U. This was not the case for the PS3, and very bad for third parties.
The PS3 started slowly, and gradually ramped up to pass the WiiU 7 months in. one has gradually increasing sales, the other has stalled out completely.
Also: consider that the PS3 was the last to launch, and was competing against a 360 with the same capabilities, sold for less money, and a Wii that was on fire at the time, with incredible amounts of mindshare. It was literally the worst possible case for the system. It was getting killed on price AND performance by competitors, selling on the Sony name alone and *maybe* blu-ray.
Now, consider the WiiU. It's only competition right now are two consoles that have been on the market for 8 years. it has had the "next gen" field to itself for almost a year, and no one is interested. last gen consoles are killing it. in about 3 months, two more consoles launch with incredible amounts of hype and a slew of launch games ready. Right now is the BEST POSSIBLE TIME to be selling WiiU consoles, and nintendo has blown their year lead. once the PS4 and Xbone launch it's going to get killed- and this isn't a "power" conversation, this is just the ability for nintendo to compete for attention against the next big thing. They don't have the dollars, and don't have the marketshare.
unfortunately for nintendo, the vast majority of console sales occur during holiday season. if they get buried this year, it's another year of "nothing" and running on fumes, hoping to make something happen for 2014. No developer in their right mind is going to put serious support behind a console in this position.
Same thing has been said for Nintendo consoles for years and I'm still not sure what it means.
I think not porting a game is more of a write off than a wait and see. Nothing special needs to be done with the gamepad. Anyone that pays even a little attention to Nintendo's hardware knows that Nintendo nor the market is forcing anyone to do anything special. The best selling game on the system does nothing special with the gamepad.
Edit: Okay so many responses....
First party sales always seem to be a bad thing for Nintendo. Even on the Wii where their are more third party million sellers than the PS3 ( it did last time I checked) has it is still looked at a negative because third party games don't sell 20 million copies each like Nintendo games.
PS3/Wii/360 were still competeing against the PS2 and for a while the PS2 was kicking anything not named the Wii ass. How old the consoles are doesn't mean jack. If those old consoles have a strong software lineup and low price it can and will outsell the new console. None of that or how early the Wii U launch had anyting to do with what I was talking about anyway. The Wii U not selling had more to do with Nintendo than anything else.
I know the PS3 had better monthly sales and the Wii U install base benefits from having a stronger launch than the PS3 had. Still dropping or not supporting a console before its first holiday means you're writing it off. The Wii got written off too before it was clear it was going to be a hit. maybe we are not looking at this from the same view. In ny view the console was written off before it even launched and maybe you think it was only after the sales tanked.