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[charsace]

Wow Jabari really looks like a Carmelo Clone. that is good and bad lol

He looks nothing like Carmelo. Jabari is a poor man's Grant Hill. He's Hill, except not as athletic and also plays below the rim.

Michael Carter Williams is the next Reece Gaines. A big guard that teams were high on and fans just can't understand why.

 

[reilo]

Shipping out Yn and/or Ibaka was always the obvious move.

They could've had Harden, Durant and Love.

 

[otapnam]

oladipo's game against the spuds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEVGr4TFTNE

through pre-season he's averaging 14 points, 6 boards, 5 assists, 1.5 steals and 3.4 turns in 27 mpg

he's doing way more shit than I ever imagined; post ups, driving left, etc.

theres a reason to watch orlando games afterall

 

[Red Blaster]

He looks nothing like Carmelo. Jabari is a poor man's Grant Hill. He's Hill, except not as athletic and also plays below the rim.

Michael Carter Williams is the next Reece Gaines. A big guard that teams were high on and fans just can't understand why.

i don't think many teams were high on mcw

i'm 99% sure the sixers drafted him to be the tank commander for 3 years and just let him walk during rfa

 

[reilo]

HowardBeck: NBA owners unanimously approve switch to 2-2-1-1-1 Finals. Extra day off between Games 6/7 for travel.

WE WON!!!!

 

[charsace]

i don't think many teams were high on mcw

i'm 99% sure the sixers drafted him to be the tank commander for 3 years and just let him walk during rfa

They drafted him in the lotto and made room for him by trading a promising young PG. He was drafted right outside the top 10. The pick could have helped them. Philly needs bigs and shooting and they passed those up for this guy and traded a good, young pg away. They were gonna be bad this year anyways so why waste a pick on MCW? The truth is that teams were high on this kid even though he sucks.

 

[Diprosalic]

WE WON!!!!

that's nice. hated the old format.

 

[Red Blaster]

They drafted him in the lotto and made room for him by trading a promising young PG. He was drafted right outside the top 10. The pick could have helped them. Philly needs bigs and shooting and they passed those up for this guy and traded a good, young pg away. They were gonna be bad this year anyways so why waste a pick on MCW? The truth is that teams were high on this kid even though he sucks.

but they did get a big in noel + another first round pick for jrue who puts up stats but isn't *that* good

 

[KingGondo]

It's not Ibaka. And it's really not that convulated when my point was the FO fucked up and you're saying it was for flexibility sake when it was clear they already had flexibility. Other GMs overvalue YN and Ibaka as much as OKC fans, yes even a year ago.

I dunno man, we're pretty fucking stellar on defense with Ibaka. And he's a good offensive player too.

I don't understand what you mean by saying OKC "already had flexibility." We had 2 guys locked into max deals, plus 2 that were gonna command $10 million plus. If we pay Harden what he wants, we have 3 max players and are forced to make do with garbage around three perimeter players. If we pay Ibaka his money and flip Harden, we undeniably have more room to navigate and the ability to get slightly better role players than we would have. With three max contracts you're locked in and it's hard to get out of the position

I don't consider it a bad decision to keep an all-star and multiple time all-NBA point guard over your promising but ultimately unproven sixth man, especially when that sixth man wants a max contract. That's what they call one of those "good problems.'

Harden is great, and I wish he was still in OKC. But whether the trade was simply a misstep or a huge blunder will only be decided by the passage of time. That's why this argument is tiresome.

They could've had Harden, Durant and Love.

Reminds me of another team that could've had Durant...

 

[h3ro]

Reminds me of another team that could've had Durant...

But then you would have had Amare' Oden.

 

[Dominican Power]

But then you would have had Amare' Oden.

or Al Horford.

 

[KingGondo]

But then you would have had Amare' Oden.

Comparing Oden to Amar'e is insulting to Amar'e.

 

[Dominican Power]

Comparing Oden to Amar'e is insulting to Amar'e.

Hero can't feel anymore. He's a hollow shell.

 

[BlackClouds]

My NBA Top 5

1. Lebron
2. Lebron
3. Lebron
4. Lebron
5. Lebron

Anybody else is not really close and there's no real debate.

 

[KingGondo]

My NBA Top 5

1. Lebron
2. Lebron
3. Lebron
4. Lebron
5. Lebron

 

[jakefromstatefarm]

My NBA Top 5

1. Lebron
2. Lebron
3. Lebron
4. Lebron
5. Lebron

Anybody else is not really close and there's no real debate.

Thread derailed for 2.5 more pages confirmed.

And what? At comparing oden to amare, stoudamire was a perennial all star before his knees exploded.

Edit: Although if oden played with nash and had access to the Lazarus pits in phoenix he might've been able to put up similar numbers.

 

[Forever]

One thing I don't understand about Phoenix is why other NBA teams haven't been able to duplicate their medical team. I mean I would assume that if you threw enough money at it you could do it, but apparently not.

 

[Liquidsnake]

I could tell with the format change, that the company is preparing to distance themselves from Lebron.

This does him no favors. I guess with Stern leaving, he has to dot his I's and cross his T's.

Can't make the Jordan mistakes so blatant.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

I dunno man, we're pretty fucking stellar on defense with Ibaka. And he's a good offensive player too.

I don't understand what you mean by saying OKC "already had flexibility." We had 2 guys locked into max deals, plus 2 that were gonna command $10 million plus. If we pay Harden what he wants, we have 3 max players and are forced to make do with garbage around three perimeter players. If we pay Ibaka his money and flip Harden, we undeniably have more room to navigate and the ability to get slightly better role players than we would have. With three max contracts you're locked in and it's hard to get out of the position

I don't consider it a bad decision to keep an all-star and multiple time all-NBA point guard over your promising but ultimately unproven sixth man, especially when that sixth man wants a max contract. That's what they call one of those "good problems.'

Harden is great, and I wish he was still in OKC. But whether the trade was simply a misstep or a huge blunder will only be decided by the passage of time. That's why this argument is tiresome.


Reminds me of another team that could've had Durant...

You had flexibility because you could still trade players like YN and Ibaka, maybe even package Perk's ugly paperweight-ass in one of those deals.

YN or Harden isn't a tough choice now and wasn't then. People were calling for him to be shipped and for Harden to run the offense for a while. Presti basically did the exact opposite of what he should have in that situation.


Letting Harden go is pretty indefensible, but here we are.

 

[diehard]

format change is about Lebron now?

i... just can't

 

[J. Bravo]

I could tell with the format change, that the company is preparing to distance themselves from Lebron.

This does him no favors. I guess with Stern leaving, he has to dot his I's and cross his T's.

Can't make the Jordan mistakes so blatant.

22111 is better for everyone involved.

 

[The Stealth Fox]

2-2-1-1-1 makes sense. It should have been like this a long time ago.

 

[KingGondo]

You had flexibility because you could still trade players like YN and Ibaka, maybe even package Perk's ugly paperweight-ass in one of those deals.

YN or Harden isn't a tough choice now and wasn't then. People were calling for him to be shipped and for Harden to run the offense for a while. Presti basically did the exact opposite of what he should have in that situation.

Letting Harden go is pretty indefensible, but here we are.

This logic only applies in hindsight, or if you're one of the many unreasonable YNB detractors in Best-GAF.

If you trade YNB for pieces and kept Harden, you're trading a known superstar for a potential one. If Harden hadn't turned out to be as good as he is it's a terrible move.

It also ignores the context of the fact that we had just made the NBA Finals as an extremely young team, and were competitive in every game (except game 5) with Harden playing like dogshit. Even if Presti thought Harden would develop into a great player, he might think he's more expendable at that point. Easier to replace a sixth man than a known superstar, even if that sixth man is Harden.

When's the last time in NBA history a team traded a known superstar asset in order to keep a potential one? That's what you're saying "wasn't a tough choice," and I disagree.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

The problem seems to lead back to you overvaluing YN's dumbass.

 

[thekad]

It also ignores the context of the fact that we had just made the NBA Finals as an extremely young team, and were competitive in every game (except game 5) with Harden playing like dogshit. Even if Presti thought Harden would develop into a great player, he might think he's more expendable at that point. Easier to replace a sixth man than a known superstar, even if that sixth man is Harden.

To be fair, Westbrook was even worse in that series. Durant knows

 

[KingGondo]

The problem seems to lead back to you overvaluing YN's dumbass.

I happen to think he's pretty fucking good.

He certainly does dumb things, but we're a lot better with him than without him.

 

[Forever]

If OKC does lose Durant and Westbrook, I wonder how history will judge the team.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Harden had a bad series but god damn so did YN.

Harden 32 mpg 37.5% FG 31% from 3 12 pts average for the series, well under his season avg.

YN 42 mpg 43% FG 13% from 3 27 pts average for the series, over his season average.

YN was doing too much. He took 120 FGA vs Harden's 48 over 5 games. 2.5x the FGA in 1/3 more minutes. Jesus.

He went 3/22 from 3...

 

[reilo]

Everyone was saying that giving Perk and Ibaka those dumbass contracts was fucking dumbass because it meant they had to lowball Harden. Don't pay Ibaka and Perk $20mil, and you can pay Harden what he's worth.

EVERYONE saw that coming a couple of years ago. Let's not pretend this entire argument is being made with hindsight.

 

[reilo]

So let's see... What gives a roster more flexibility?

Perk + Ibaka = $20mil/yr

Harden = $13mil/yr

20 - 13 = ???!!?!

Good job. You could've had Harden, YNB AND Durant AND one really good roleplayer big man OR a couple of decent roleplayers for the remaining $7mil/yr.

Don't act like this was about not being able to find roleplayers worth their salt by paying Harden. OKC overpaid out of the ass for Ibaka and Perk --- that's the problem. Should've dumped those two.

 

[KingGondo]

Harden had a bad series but god damn so did YN.

Harden 32 mpg 37.5% FG 31% from 3 12 pts average for the series, well under his season avg.

YN 42 mpg 43% FG 13% from 3 27 pts average for the series, over his season average.

YN was doing too much. He took 120 FGA vs Harden's 48 over 5 games. 2.5x the FGA in 1/3 more minutes. Jesus.

He went 3/22 from 3...

I agree, he was doin 2 much. I'm amazed Captain Jaxxxxx didn't get in his mouth.

By far the biggest problem in that series is that our regular starting lineup (YNB, Thabo, Durant, Ibaka, Perkins) matched up terribly against Miami's and Brooks never adjusted.

If he had done what Popovich did against Miami and started the sixth man (Ginobili in their case, Harden in ours) against them it would have possibly worked a lot better.

YNB - Chalmers
Harden - Wade
Thabo - LBJ
Durant - Battier
Ibaka - Bosh

That makes wayyyyy more sense. Perk ended up running out to cover Battier on corner threes and shit. Ughhhhhhhh it still pisses me off.

Everyone was saying that giving Perk and Ibaka those dumbass contracts was fucking dumbass because it meant they had to lowball Harden. Don't pay Ibaka and Perk $20mil, and you can pay Harden what he's worth.

EVERYONE saw that coming a couple of years ago. Let's not pretend this entire argument is being made with hindsight.

Ibaka's contract is fair, by the crazy standards of the NBA. Size gets paid, period. And he's still a two-way impact player, although I'll admit he's too reliant on others to set up his offense.

Perk's contract was a risk that hasn't paid off and is hampering us now. If we were getting the Perk of 2007-08 it would be a great contract, but we're not. At the same time, our record since he arrived has been nothing short of fantastic.

Neither were insane at the time, just potentially risky. Some risks pay off, some don't.

So let's see... What gives a roster more flexibility?

Perk + Ibaka = $20mil/yr

Harden = $13mil/yr

We offered Harden $54M over 4 years. He wouldn't accept it.

Good job. You could've had Harden, YNB AND Durant AND one really good roleplayer big man OR a couple of decent roleplayers for the remaining $7mil/yr.

:lol

Which good roleplaying big is going for $7M/year now? And one good big man (even if you could get him for that bargain basement price) does not a frontcourt make.

 

[jman2050]

And I disagree that the time to spend is past. We're still under the tax, and we posted these numbers during the regular season last year:

Off Rtg: 112.4 (1st of 30) ▪ Def Rtg: 102.6 (3rd of 30)

And still won 60 games before YNB went down in the playoffs.

If we don't spend in the next 2-3 years before KD's contract is up, I'll readily admit that our ownership is cheap. But the Harden situation was much more complex than people make it out to be. Presti's trying to keep us contending for 10-15 years rather than "going for it" for a short burst. We'll see whether it works or not.

I've always been wary of OKC's offense last year because they have absolutely no offensive system and their entire method of points basically devolves to "give Westbrook or Durant the ball." This is a perfectly fine strategy against against 80% of the league but completely falls apart against the other 20%, of which teams like Miami, Memphis, etc are included.

Honestly, even if they had YNB I don't think OKC was getting past Memphis.

Also Miami just won two titles with a frontcourt of Lebron James, Generic Decomposing Big Man, 15mpg of Chris Andersen, and Chris Bosh 20ft from the basket so forgive me if I don't consider someone like Serge Ibaka a crucial championship piece, especially when you have Kevin Durant.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

Just maxing Harden would have been better than KMart pick and Lamb.

Arguing getting rid of Harden helps you fill out your bench is funny. Who better to come off the bench than a 23 year old Manu in the making?


And like reilo is saying, go to the old OTs and check the receipts. Folks saw it coming.

 

[reilo]

Portland acquired Robin Lopez for nothing and he makes $4.8mil/yr. Certainly he's better than Perkins?

Not to mention that Thomas Robinson (also acquired for nothing) in the right opportunity is at least potentially as good as Ibaka -- and he's a Top 5 pick on a rookie contract entering his sophomore year. You're telling me that Presti couldn't have made those moves?

YNB, Harden, Durant, Robinson, Lopez

OR

YNB, trash, Durant, Ibaka, trash

About the same salary. Which do you pick? If you say the latter, then you are as fucking dumb as Presti.

 

[jjasper]

But Ibaka gets 3 weak side blocks a game. 3 A GAME!

 

[jman2050]

"Filling out the bench" is a hilarious justification for getting rid of Harden. Surround Durant, YNB, and Harden with any generic set of minimum vet/MLE trash and that's a potential championship team right there.

 

[reilo]

"Filling out the bench" is a hilarious justification for getting rid of Harden. Surround Durant, YNB, and Harden with any generic set of minimum vet/MLE trash and that's a potential championship team right there.

Lakers and Heat won back-to-backs with Fisher and Cole as their starting PGs. Not to mention Jason Kidd was borderline terrible (outside his 3PT shooting) in 2011. But no man, we just don't understand, roleplayers win championships.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

"Filling out the bench" is a hilarious justification for getting rid of Harden. Surround Durant, YNB, and Harden with any generic set of minimum vet/MLE trash and that's a potential championship team right there.

Possibly, but there's massive skill overlap there and no interior defense.

The return was just terrible, not the idea.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

If Lamb becomes Reggie Miller like 2K14 insists, I'mma feel like a real asshole.

 

[reilo]

Possibly, but there's massive skill overlap there and no interior defense.

The return was just terrible, not the idea.

Can we even classify what Ibaka does as "interior defense"? I feel like there's better options to shore that frontline up that doesn't rely on paying Ibaka $12.5mil/yr and dumping Harden.

If Lamb becomes Reggie Miller like 2K14 insists, I'mma feel like a real asshole.

So just another Wednesday for you?

 

[KingGondo]

I've always been wary of OKC's offense last year because they have absolutely no offensive system and their entire method of points basically devolves to "give Westbrook or Durant the ball." This is a perfectly fine strategy against against 80% of the league but completely falls apart against the other 20%, of which teams like Miami, Memphis, etc are included.

Honestly, even if they had YNB I don't think OKC was getting past Memphis.

Game 1: OKC 93 MEM 91
Game 2: MEM 99 OKC 93
Game 3: MEM 87 OKC 81
Game 4: MEM 103 OKC 97
Game 5: MEM 88 OKC 84

Every game came down to one possession late. It's your prerogative to think one of the best 5-10 players in the league wouldn't have made a difference, but that's laughably naive.

Portland acquired Robin Lopez for nothing and he makes $4.8mil/yr. Certainly he's better than Perkins?

Not to mention that Thomas Robinson (also acquired for nothing) in the right opportunity is at least potentially as good as Ibaka -- and he's on a rookie contract. You're telling me that Presti couldn't have made those moves?

You're comparing Robin Lopez now (who has done jack and shit in the league) to Kendrick Perkins, who (while he was coming off an ACL injury) was at least a valuable piece on a championship team. I already said that the contract was potentially risky, and it's burning us now. $4.8M/year is fair for Robin Lopez, and Perk's current contract was fair if we got 2007-09 Perk for it.

I'm not even going to address your Thomas Robinson aspect until he plays a meaningful NBA game.

"Filling out the bench" is a hilarious justification for getting rid of Harden. Surround Durant, YNB, and Harden with any generic set of minimum vet/MLE trash and that's a potential championship team right there.

You fuckers keep putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say we traded Harden to "fill out the bench." We traded him to keep a YNB-Durant-Ibaka core and put other young players around it. Did it work? The verdict is still out.

If Lamb becomes Reggie Miller like 2K14 insists, I'mma feel like a real asshole.

The Lamb of God will not disappoint.

 

[jjasper]

Every game came down to one possession late. It's your prerogative to think one of the best 5-10 players in the league wouldn't have made a difference, but that's laughably naive.

It didn't the other times they played when the Grizz had a full roster.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Can we even classify what Ibaka does as "interior defense"? I feel like there's better options to shore that frontline up that doesn't rely on paying Ibaka $12.5mil/yr and dumping Harden.

Ibaka's did a pretty good job last year. He's not on the level of Asik, Duncan, Dwight, or Gasol but I don't think he's not the DeAndre Jordan/JaVale McGee like liability that some seem to view him as and like he was in the past. I think Durant-Westbrook-Favors or Durant-Harden-Noah or something like that would have been better than keeping all three and not keeping Ibaka though. I wouldn't have had that much of an issue with the Thunder trading Harden or Westbrook if they had gotten someone like Joakim Noah, Roy Hibbert, or Derrick Favors is what I'm saying.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I wonder what else they scanned of him. ;P

 

[reilo]

Everyone except Gondo, Presti, Perk, and his agent called that contract trash the moment it was given to him. That wasn't risky, that was just dumb. Everyone knows when rookie contracts expire and you could telegraph the issue years ahead with giving Perk that contract. Plenty of people did. Perk wasn't worth a guaranteed $8mil/yr then, and he's especially not worth it now. Let's not forget that OKC could've just amnestied Perk! They had a way out of this mess!

Anyway, so Gondo would rather role the dice on YNB, trash, Durant, Ibaka, trash rather than YNB, Harden, Durant, Robinson, Lopez.

Gotcha.

Hey Gondo, what was your opinion of Ibaka after his rookie season? Did he also need to play a meaningful NBA game, or were you all over him to become a starter in this league? Be honest.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Thomas Robinson has never been able to make jumpshots or block shots in his entire life (or really do anything other than rebound and postup on guys way weaker than him), but he could be as good as Ibaka on the right team.

 

[reilo]

Thomas Robinson has never been able to make jumpshots or block shots in his entire life (or really do anything other than rebound and postup on guys way weaker than him), but he could be as good as Ibaka on the right team.

And that's all I'm saying. You take that chance, especially if you pair him up with a decent center that actually can produce unlike Perkins.

Guys, did you know Harden played like shit in the Finals? But do you remember what Ibaka did? Amazing! Give him all the money in the world:

 

[Vire]

From the 2K14 event:

Chris Manning 2K14 @666Dude 20s
Beta tester Jeff Reed has JR Smith take 30 foot 3 with 19 on the clock. Triggers in-game Woodson to shake his head. Level of detail is stunning

Amazing.

 

[reilo]

"But reilo, you just don't understand! Harden had a bad Finals!"

 

[XiaNaphryz]

From the 2K14 event:

Chris Manning 2K14 @666Dude 20s
Beta tester Jeff Reed has JR Smith take 30 foot 3 with 19 on the clock. Triggers in-game Woodson to shake his head. Level of detail is stunning

Amazing.

Hopefully we see bench player reactions as well, both positive and negative.