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[Vahagn]

Btw, the excellent Bill Simmons Article about Duncan made me catch something he pointed out.


Duncan's Finals MVP in 2005 might be the worst Finals MVP Ever. His numbers


20.6 ppg
14.1 rpg
2.1 apg
2.4 tpg
0.4 spg
2.1 bpg
41.9% FG
0% 3pt FG
66.7% FT


By contrast, Kobe's worst performance in the finals a year earlier against the same Pistons

22.6 ppg
2.8 rpg
4.4 apg
3.6 tpg
1.8 spg
0.6 bpg
38% FG
17% 3pt FG
92% FT


I mean, Kobe's worse...but barely...and Duncan won Finals MVP with those numbers

 

[1871]

Btw, the excellent Bill Simmons Article about Duncan made me catch something he pointed out.


Duncan's Finals MVP in 2005 might be the worst Finals MVP Ever. His numbers


20.6 ppg
14.1 rpg
2.1 apg
2.4 tpg
0.4 spg
2.1 bpg
41.9% FG
0% 3pt FG
66.7% FT


By contrast, Kobe's worst performance in the finals a year earlier against the same Pistons

22.6 ppg
2.8 rpg
4.4 apg
3.6 tpg
1.8 spg
0.6 bpg
38% FG
17% 3pt FG
92% FT


I mean, Kobe's worse...but barely...and Duncan won Finals MVP with those numbers

God fucking damn it what a master class troll

So fucking clueless about the game and its history.

20/14/2 and it's the worst ever.

Damn. Everything that's been said about you is true.

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

Btw, the excellent Bill Simmons Article about Duncan made me catch something he pointed out.


Duncan's Finals MVP in 2005 might be the worst Finals MVP Ever. His numbers


20.6 ppg
14.1 rpg
2.1 apg
2.4 tpg
0.4 spg
2.1 bpg
41.9% FG
0% 3pt FG
66.7% FT


By contrast, Kobe's worst performance in the finals a year earlier against the same Pistons

22.6 ppg
2.8 rpg
4.4 apg
3.6 tpg
1.8 spg
0.6 bpg
38% FG
17% 3pt FG
92% FT


I mean, Kobe's worse...but barely...and Duncan won Finals MVP with those numbers

14rpg is terrible? Keep eating that Kobe beef.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

I still think its a good article. And I still think tha his confidence is still impenetrable.

Also he's far from a homer, he's pretty even handed w his analysis.

Stan was on today so that was awesome too

That's what confidence looks like to you?

 

[Zeus Molecules]

God fucking damn it what a master class troll

So fucking clueless about the game and its history.

20/14/2 and it's the worst ever.

Damn. Everything that's been said about you is true.

You read my mind with this post lol

 

[Vahagn]

God fucking damn it what a master class troll

So fucking clueless about the game and its history.

20/14/2 and it's the worst ever.

Damn. Everything that's been said about you is true.

It's clearly the worst ever. The rebounds are impressive.


He has a worse assist/to ratio than Kobe. Less points. Worse TS%, same amount of steals+blocks.

Rebounds are his only saving grace. Everything else on that list of stats is pure shit for a Finals MVP and you know it.


The only reason I compare it to Kobe is because that Kobe performance was abysmal against the same team yet the numbers look almost identical. If you can look at those numbers, and not see how poorly TD played in comparison to other Finals MVP's there's really nothing left to say.

And that's fine, just wanted to leave that here.

 

[PBY]

It's clearly the worst ever. The rebounds are impressive.


He has a worse assist/to ratio than Kobe. Less points. Worse TS%, same amount of steals+blocks.

Rebounds are his only saving grace. Everything else on that list of stats is pure shit for a Finals MVP and you know it.

Dat double down

 

[Black Mamba]

It's clearly the worst ever. The rebounds are impressive.


He has a worse assist/to ratio than Kobe. Less points. Worse TS%, same amount of steals+blocks.

Rebounds are his only saving grace. Everything else on that list of stats is pure shit for a Finals MVP and you know it.

And Duncan's defense?

Tony Parker's MVP is way worse since it belonged to Duncan that year.

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

It's clearly the worst ever. The rebounds are impressive.


He has a worse assist/to ratio than Kobe. Less points. Worse TS%, same amount of steals+blocks.

Rebounds are his only saving grace. Everything else on that list of stats is pure shit for a Finals MVP and you know it.

Atleast Tim Duncan never gave up on his team in the playoffs like Kobe did vs the Suns.

 

[Vahagn]

You guys are really defending


20/14/2 on 42% shooting for a big with no 3 pointers made and 66% FT shooting and an assist to turnover ratio of below 1.0 as a legitimate Finals MVP?


14 rebounds is the only impressive thing there, everything else is abysmal.

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Kobe wasn't going up against Sheed and Ben Wallace. The fuck.

 

[Sharp]

It's clearly the worst ever. The rebounds are impressive.


He has a worse assist/to ratio than Kobe. Less points. Worse TS%, same amount of steals+blocks.

ITT, Vahagn learns that Tim Duncan is not a guard.

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

ITT, Vahagn learns that Tim Duncan is not a guard.

I didn't even catch that. He's using assists as evidence? For Tim Duncan? Wow.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

You guys are really defending


20/14/2 on 42% shooting for a big with no 3 pointers made and 66% FT shooting and an assist to turnover ratio of below 1.0 as a legitimate Finals MVP?


14 rebounds is the only impressive thing there, everything else is abysmal.

 

[Vahagn]

Atleast Tim Duncan never gave up on his team in the playoffs like Kobe did vs the Suns.

by your definition of "giving up"...Lebron James has given up on his team 32 times already and you continue to root for him.


And I didn't know scoring 50 in game 6, and 15 in the first half of game 7 meant giving up. So he "gave up" in one half, of one blowout game.

Again, Lebron's done that 32 times. Lets' not get into this trolling nonsense.

I didn't even catch that. He's using assists as evidence? For Tim Duncan? Wow.

No, I'm clearly using everything as evidence. It's ALL bad. 14 rebounds is a plus, everything else on that stat sheet is pure shit.

 

[Black Mamba]

You guys are really defending


20/14/2 on 42% shooting for a big with no 3 pointers made and 66% FT shooting and an assist to turnover ratio of below 1.0 as a legitimate Finals MVP?


14 rebounds is the only impressive thing there, everything else is abysmal.

It was a defensive series. Spurs and Pistons were like 2 of the best defenses ever at the time.

 

[MorisUkunRasik]

I've always wondered what someone thought about Kobe in contrast to everything. I'm glad Vahagn is around.

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

by your definition of "giving up"...Lebron James has given up on his team 32 times already and you continue to root for him.


And I didn't know scoring 50 in game 6, and 15 in the first half of game 7 meant giving up. So he "gave up" in one half, of one blowout game.

Again, Lebron's done that 32 times. Lets' not get into this trolling nonsense.





No, I'm clearly using everything as evidence. It's ALL bad. 14 rebounds is a plus, everything else on that stat sheet is pure shit.

LeBron has given up 32 times? How do you come up with that number? Also, do you defend Kobe giving up on his team?

 

[Vahagn]

It was a defensive series. Spurs and Pistons were like 2 of the best defenses ever at the time.

tell me honestly, that you knew that he was that bad in that series. That he scored so few points, that he was so horribly inefficient...because I didn't.


Again, if you had no idea the outcome of either of those two series, and you saw those two box composite box scores you'd think they played pretty much equally badly. But one guy gets clowned forever for the stats, the other guy got Finals MVP.


if Pistons win that series, we look at that entire series as Tim Duncan dropping the ball and failing for his team.

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

tell me honestly, that you knew that he was that bad in that series. That he scored so few points, that he was so horribly inefficient...because I didn't.


Again, if you had no idea the outcome of either of those two series, and you saw those two box composite box scores you'd think they played pretty much equally badly. But one guy gets clowned forever for the stats, the other guy got Finals MVP.


if Pistons win that series, we look at that entire series as Tim Duncan dropping the ball and failing for his team.

And if Pau and Artest didn't rescue Kobe in 2010 game 7 we look at Kobe as having dropped the ball yet again in the finals.

 

[Vahagn]

And if Pau and Artest didn't rescue Kobe in 2010 game 7 we look at Kobe as having dropped the ball yet again in the finals.

why I bolded "entire series" - Kobe had a bad game 7 (got 15 rebounds though so per your TD 14 rebound ball washing he was AMAZEBALLS)...TD stunk up the whole series.

 

[Sharp]

Vahgan, since you don't seem to be aware, let me enlighten you on some of the differences between guards and bigs.

* Guards tend to have higher TS% (thanks to higher FT%).
* Bigs tend to have higher FG%, since they mostly score around the paint.
* Guards tend to have way higher USG%, hence score more points.
* Guards almost universally have better AST / TO ratios than bigs. Most bigs have terrible handles, which is why they are not usually distributors and part of what made Magic so amazing.
* Guards almost always have more steals than bigs. They are faster and can get their hands on the ball more easily, and when they do are better able to control it.
* Bigs tend to have more blocks than guards, 'cause they're tall.
* Bigs tend to have more rebounds than guards... 'cause they're tall.

And by far the most important difference between guards and bigs, which you are *totally* missing:
* Bigs have so much more influence on the game defensively that even comparing them to guards in that category is laughable.

It's that last point that's the reason that a lot of statheads have Kareem about MJ. Duncan's defense was / is also by far his most important contribution to the Spurs. People are talking about Kawhi Leonard as MVP of this series, why do you think that is?

In summation, I have absolutely no idea why you thought that the stats you listed were even relevant to this discussion.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

I've always wondered what someone thought about Kobe in contrast to everything. I'm glad Vahagn is around.

Lol

 

[Blackhead]

It's a damn shame Kobe is never going to face off against Lebron in the playoffs.

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

why I bolded "entire series" - Kobe had a bad game 7 (got 15 rebounds though so per your TD 14 rebound ball washing he was AMAZEBALLS)...TD stunk up the whole series.

It's quite ironic that you're going to call anyone on this board a ball washer.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Man I hope this doesn't lead to another 8 pages of vag waxing poetic about kobe

 

[Vahagn]

The fact that the two played in back to back Finals series against the same team. And the fact that the stats look incredibly similar once you factor in the basic differences in guards/bigs


TD got more rebounds and blocks. Kobe got more steals and assists...it makes the comparison apt.


The fact that you guys are trolling, just to troll is sad. If I put "Player A" and "Player B" and didn't tell you guys who they were, or what the contexts were, it would look like a typical Bill Simmons article comparing two players with similarly bad numbers except for the rebounds.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I think most of the Finals MVPs in the 70s averaged less than 20 PPG.

 

[Vahagn]

Vahgan, since you don't seem to be aware, let me enlighten you on some of the differences between guards and bigs.

* Guards tend to have higher TS% (thanks to higher FT%).
* Bigs tend to have higher FG%, since they mostly score around the paint.
* Guards tend to have way higher USG%, hence score more points.
* Guards almost universally have better AST / TO ratios than bigs. Most bigs have terrible handles, which is why they are not usually distributors and part of what made Magic so amazing.
* Guards almost always have more steals than bigs. They are faster and can get their hands on the ball more easily, and when they do are better able to control it.
* Bigs tend to have more blocks than guards, 'cause they're tall.
* Bigs tend to have more rebounds than guards... 'cause they're tall.

And by far the most important difference between guards and bigs, which you are *totally* missing:
* Bigs have so much more influence on the game defensively that even comparing them to guards in that category is laughable.

It's that last point that's the reason that a lot of statheads have Kareem about MJ. Duncan's defense was / is also by far his most important contribution to the Spurs. People are talking about Kawhi Leonard as MVP of this series, why do you think that is?

In summation, I have absolutely no idea why you thought that the stats you listed were even relevant to this discussion.

This is absurd. Everyone knows the differences but you're wrong on a few points that don't need getting into.


If you don't look at those two box scores, and see the similarly horrible production, that's fine, they look awfully similar to me.

 

[reilo]

I've always wondered what someone thought about Kobe in contrast to everything. I'm glad Vahagn is around.

Did you see Kobayashi win another hot dog contest?

It was like watching Kobe drop 81 points.

Kobeyashi!!

Hey, remember in Star Trek '09 how Kirk cheated on the Kobayashi Maru test?

It was reminiscent how the league cheated Kobe out of a MVP and gave it to Nash.

Kobeyashi Maru!!!

I ate a great steak last night. It was prime kobe beef.

Did you know Prime Kobe scored 35PPG?

 

[1871]

The fact that the two played in back to back Finals series against the same team. And the fact that the stats look incredibly similar once you factor in the basic differences in guards/bigs


TD got more rebounds and blocks. Kobe got more steals and assists...it makes the comparison apt.


The fact that you guys are trolling, just to troll is sad. If I put "Player A" and "Player B" and didn't tell you guys who they were, or what the contexts were, it would look like a typical Bill Simmons article comparing two players with similarly bad numbers except for the rebounds.

Except for the rebounds, the blocks, the turnovers, the field goal percentage, etc.

You're terrible. I seriously believe something is wrong in your head. If it's psychological, it's fueled by some uncontrollable desire to get fucked like a Colorado girl.

 

[SUPREME1]

Why pile up on Vag over something Simmons pointed out?

 

[DY_nasty]

Except for the rebounds, the blocks, the turnovers, the field goal percentage, etc.

You're terrible. I seriously believe something is wrong in your head. If it's psychological, it's fueled by some uncontrollable desire to get fucked like a Colorado girl.

o m g

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

Except for the rebounds, the blocks, the turnovers, the field goal percentage, etc.

You're terrible. I seriously believe something is wrong in your head. If it's psychological, it's fueled by some uncontrollable desire to get fucked like a Colorado girl.

Wow. Are you ok Vag?

 

[reilo]

Except for the rebounds, the blocks, the turnovers, the field goal percentage, etc.

You're terrible. I seriously believe something is wrong in your head. If it's psychological, it's fueled by some uncontrollable desire to get fucked like a Colorado girl.

(I) Fuck with your soul like ether
(Will) Teach you the king you know you
(Not) "God's son" across the belly
(Lose) I prove you lost already

 

[Sharp]

This is absurd. Everyone knows the differences but you're wrong on a few points that don't need getting into.

Get into them, please. I didn't look up any of that, so I could totally have been wrong on some things. Be specific!

If you don't look at those two box scores, and see the similarly horrible production, that's fine, they look awfully similar to me.

The reason I don't like basketball statistics is that basketball box scores are a pretty bad way of determining player value. Especially when they're presented in isolation like you're doing. If you don't see why it is a bad idea to determine who the "worst Finals MVP" was based on that, I'm not going to argue with you anymore, because there just isn't any point.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Why pile up on Vag over something Simmons pointed out?

He could of posted a link or quoted Simmons because without that it sounds like regular kobe stat stuff vag always posts

 

[Vahagn]

Except for the rebounds, the blocks, the turnovers, the field goal percentage, etc.

You're terrible. I seriously believe something is wrong in your head. If it's psychological, it's fueled by some uncontrollable desire to get fucked like a Colorado girl.

Now you're the one who doesn't know the difference between guards and bigs.


He got more rebounds, less TO's, more blocks, and shot a higher FG percentage because he's a big.

But outside of the rebounds, everything is similar. FG% is 4% difference and they're both horrible. Less TO's, but it's balanced by less assists. More blocks, but it's balanced by less steals. In fact. Blocks+Steals is 2.4 vs. 2.5...pretty much identical there too.


And the 4% FG increase which is still horrible you're just too much of a troll to admit it, is balanced by Kobe shooting significantly higher from the FT line and converting on 3 point shots.


So...congrats...your ability to analyze data is really really really porous

 

[DY_nasty]

It takes a certain kind of person to go at Tim Duncan's MVP season in this particular way.

 

[reilo]

You know what the difference between Timmy in '05 and Kobe in '04 was? Timmy won.

 

[I am Michael Bolton]

You know what the difference between Timmy in '05 and Kobe in '04 was? Timmy won.

Well you can blame Shaq for that.
/Vag

 

[Zeus Molecules]

Except for the rebounds, the blocks, the turnovers, the field goal percentage, etc.

You're terrible. I seriously believe something is wrong in your head. If it's psychological, it's fueled by some uncontrollable desire to get fucked like a Colorado girl.

 

[Vahagn]

It takes a certain kind of person to go at Tim Duncan's MVP season in this particular way.

Best player in the league that year bar none.


Horrible Finals performance. If Shaq got those numbers, you guys would be clowning regularly.


I pointed out something that I didn't know, something that Simmons pointed out, and when compared to Kobe's horrible horrible performance the year before, stacks up pretty damn closely.


It may not be the worst ever, but it's the worst in recent memory that's for sure.

 

[ph33nix]

Good Lebatard show today.

He read my text on air. #winning.

The only time my text ever got read was on an off-day and I asked Mike Ryan to play the Hochman pokeys, and he did it!

 

[reilo]

Shaq got far worse numbers in '06 and nobody clowned him: 13.7PPG, 10.2RPG, 3.2TO, 60FG%, 29FT% (8FTA!!!)

Eat all the dicks.

 

[Black Mamba]

Best player in the league that year bar none.


Horrible Finals performance. If Shaq got those numbers, you guys would be clowning regularly.


I pointed out something that I didn't know, something that Simmons pointed out, and when compared to Kobe's horrible horrible performance the year before, stacks up pretty damn closely.


It may not be the worst ever, but it's the worst in recent memory that's for sure.

 

[Vahagn]

1871 - clever Colorado line. Good to see your right brain works because your left brain most definitely doesn't.

Shaq got far worse numbers in '06 and nobody clowned him: 13.7PPG, 10.2RPG, 3.2TO, 60FG%, 29FT% (8FTA!!!)

Eat all the dicks.

Did he win Finals MVP along with those numbers? Or did we go "Oh it's ok...he's passed his prime anyway"


And no, I'm not homophobic like you

 

[ThisWreckage]

Btw, the excellent Bill Simmons Article about Duncan made me catch something he pointed out.


Duncan's Finals MVP in 2005 might be the worst Finals MVP Ever. His numbers


20.6 ppg
14.1 rpg
2.1 apg
2.4 tpg
0.4 spg
2.1 bpg
41.9% FG
0% 3pt FG
66.7% FT


By contrast, Kobe's worst performance in the finals a year earlier against the same Pistons

22.6 ppg
2.8 rpg
4.4 apg
3.6 tpg
1.8 spg
0.6 bpg
38% FG
17% 3pt FG
92% FT


I mean, Kobe's worse...but barely...and Duncan won Finals MVP with those numbers

Don't gloss over the fact that Kobe doesn't play defense. Duncan is a defensive anchor and Kobe's defense is a fully intact Achilles heel.

 

[ph33nix]

 

[Emwitus]

It's a damn shame Kobe is never going to face off against Lebron in the playoffs.

The internets would explode and shadowlark vs vahagn would be amazing.

Except for the rebounds, the blocks, the turnovers, the field goal percentage, etc.

You're terrible. I seriously believe something is wrong in your head. If it's psychological, it's fueled by some uncontrollable desire to get fucked like a Colorado girl.