It Nintendo were to put up both, wouldn't it cost more through PEGI, as both versions would need to be rated? That's the only line of reasoning I could see them giving for not doing it (and a flimsy one at that. :/)
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50/60hz on the PAL Wii U eShop - Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Rich!
- Start date
It Nintendo were to put up both, wouldn't it cost more through PEGI, as both versions would need to be rated? That's the only line of reasoning I could see them giving for not doing it (and a flimsy one at that. :/)
Robin64
Member
Not if they were put up as a bundle where the user could select either one within the emulator.
Hmm, good point. Thought more along the lines of separate downloads but a bundle would make more sense. I dunno why then, low userbase and diminishing returns?
TheMoon
Member
There really wouldn't be any extra effort aside from creating the interface that allows the user to select the version. Both ROMs have to get tested anyway, both ROMs get released anyway. If they did the package app that allows you to choose which one to play that would circumvent the need for a unique age rating, too. They could offer it for all of their own titles and promote the option to third parties who might have issues due to international publishing license confusions from the olden days.
it is not the exact same system under the exact same conditions.
WiiU vs (v)Wii
software written for 60hz vs software written for 50hz
Why would that drop inputs?
Wii games handle inputs themself.
Even if they moved completely, the address could still work.
And it is not uncommon to pay the postal service to forward mail
because not every TV supported it.
the 60hz thing also creates confusion or uncertenty.
on the other you can almost rely on every HDMI TV supporting 60hz
How would you use fraps on a WiiU in Wii mode?
Are you talking about capturing equipment?
TheMoon
Member
What?
A 50Hz VC game running in 60Hz vs a 50Hz VC game running in 60Hz is the scenario. 50Hz Wii U VC vs 50Hz Wii VC games. It is the exact same system. Your console doesn't physically transform. The same console being locked to 60Hz output is running Wii Mode.
From my own experiences and from what I've seen on GAF, Nintendo costumer service gives non-answers so I never bothered. The extra lag when playing (S)NES VC on the gamepad is also a global issues so I feel we would have to get someone from Japan where they do the actual coding. Really doubt that regional offices would bother forwarding such complaints to HQ.
Completely forgot about the filter (don't own any NES games on Wii U)! Nintendo really hates giving users options for some reason.
Really disappointed about NintendoLife :/ Checked the comments and they obviously have readers that care about the 50/60Hz issue.
Fuck it. Started a new game on DKC2 today. I've recently sold my XRGB Mini for financial reasons, so like hell am I going to play the game on my real SNES through the standard SCART input on my hdtv. Using Retroarch instead:
CRT filter + BSNES core + 60hz + SNES controller via adapter + HDTV output = awww yes.
CRT filter + BSNES core + 60hz + SNES controller via adapter + HDTV output = awww yes.
Robin64
Member
I bloody love Retroarch. Spent all last night just testing out every shader. Some of them are just amazing. One of the NTSC ones, with colour bleed and stuff, is a particular fave.
Yes!
make sure you have these settings:
video driver: gl
windowed fullscreen mode: on
threaded video: off
vsync: on
hard gpu sync: on
With those settings I get a locked 60fps on all cores. It's smooth as butter, and the response time from the controls is just as good as the Wii U. ymmv though
oh and easymode-crt is the filter I use. It's one of the only ones that gives you even scanlines when not in integer mode.
right, that was kinda off topic. lol
"A 50Hz VC game running in 60Hz vs a 50Hz VC game running in 60Hz is the scenario."
is an oversimplification, it does not explain dropped input, or an input deadzone as the OP calls it, at all.
If the Wii U is displaying 50hz Wii software at 60hz, it must be doing so in a way, that is abstract to the Wii software.
Unless the WiiU is somehow stopping the Wii's code execution every 6th frame and is cleairng bluetooth buffers and organizing a new sync between other hardware like audio components there is no way it can be explained.
The easiest way would be the GPU handling bringing the 50hz output to 60hz, which would be a lot less work.
So to use the Super Metroid example, both running on WiiU:
Wii VC: a SNES ROM running in an emulator, which is Wii software, which it is outputting at 50hz, and its output is than converted to 60hz by the WiiU
Wii U VC: a SNES ROM running in an emulator, which is Wii U software, which is converting the 50hz opf the emulated game to 60hz (by showing repeated frames) and outputting that at 60hz, which is natively displayed by the WiiU
The ROM is the same, but the way the 50hz is displayed at 60hz is totally different.
The ROM isn't the same. That's part of the issue.
Super Metroid is an example - it has been altered to get rid of the borders (good), but has also been altered to change the sprite speeds (bad) and has side effects also not present in any other version such as the wrecked ship music being glitched beyond buggery (terrible).
It is not the same ROM that they supplied on the Wii. That's why they have the disclaimer on their PR about these butchered Wii U 50hz releases.
Super Metroid is an example - it has been altered to get rid of the borders (good), but has also been altered to change the sprite speeds (bad) and has side effects also not present in any other version such as the wrecked ship music being glitched beyond buggery (terrible).
It is not the same ROM that they supplied on the Wii. That's why they have the disclaimer on their PR about these butchered Wii U 50hz releases.
Robin64
Member
But 50 doesn't go into 60 in any way. It's just math at that point, and something has to be changed to make it work.
Super Metroid on the SNES had the altered sprite speed, by the way, which is how you can get out of room with the first boss in the PAL version but not the US one. Samus moves faster than the door closes.
Super Metroid on the SNES had the altered sprite speed, by the way, which is how you can get out of room with the first boss in the PAL version but not the US one. Samus moves faster than the door closes.
nkarafo
Member
Personally, i stopped caring about Nintendo VC (or any other "official" method of acquiring retro games) after i wasted my money on a few PAL N64 games on the original Wii VC. I didn't even knew they were PAL. I noticed that something was wrong with them after i loaded them so i found out the hard way. But my money was already spent. So now, i just pretend that this service does not exist anymore ever since.
But seeing in this topic that this shit is still going on strong after 5+ years, on a console that can't even support proper 50hz, is surreal. Instead of releasing the NTSC versions they actually take the time to alter the 50hz versions so they can run on the 60hz only machine, resulting in bugs, audio glitches and overall weirdness.
Our money is the only thing they care for. No matter what we say here or in Miiverse, people continue to buy that crap. So If these people are informed about this issue but their standards are so low that they don't care and spend their money on this anyway, then i guess we get what we deserve. Not me though, i'm out.
But seeing in this topic that this shit is still going on strong after 5+ years, on a console that can't even support proper 50hz, is surreal. Instead of releasing the NTSC versions they actually take the time to alter the 50hz versions so they can run on the 60hz only machine, resulting in bugs, audio glitches and overall weirdness.
Our money is the only thing they care for. No matter what we say here or in Miiverse, people continue to buy that crap. So If these people are informed about this issue but their standards are so low that they don't care and spend their money on this anyway, then i guess we get what we deserve. Not me though, i'm out.
Yep.
Its unbelievable that a free homebrew emulator suite such as Retroarch can give a far superior experience to anything Nintendo have offered us.
All they need to do is put some effort in. But no, thats too hard.
What is really depressing about all this is that Super Metroid, Link to the Past and DKC2 are their classics. They should be giving them the same care and attention that Disney give to their classic animated films on Blu Ray. But no, they halfass it and give us butchered versions like George bloody Lucas.
Its unbelievable that a free homebrew emulator suite such as Retroarch can give a far superior experience to anything Nintendo have offered us.
All they need to do is put some effort in. But no, thats too hard.
What is really depressing about all this is that Super Metroid, Link to the Past and DKC2 are their classics. They should be giving them the same care and attention that Disney give to their classic animated films on Blu Ray. But no, they halfass it and give us butchered versions like George bloody Lucas.
nkarafo
Member
Homebrew emulation scene is superior in general, as a whole, not just RetroArch. The superb shader support in RetroArch is one thing, the covers/boxart/video previews/visual themes/eye candy etc in Hyperspin (for instance) or the access to so much information in MAME is another. There is so much stuff to get excited about in the homebrew scene that any official offer looks laughable in comparison, even without counting the 50hz issue.
Definitely.
Even the homebrew emulators on the Wii put Nintendo's efforts to shame. The day someone gets the Wii U Gamepad working with streaming via PC will be glorious. Not just for emulators, but steam too.
Edit: oh shit, its possible:http://bgr.com/2013/12/30/wii-u-gamepad-pc-games/
Sadly not released yet though. Sigh
Even the homebrew emulators on the Wii put Nintendo's efforts to shame. The day someone gets the Wii U Gamepad working with streaming via PC will be glorious. Not just for emulators, but steam too.
Edit: oh shit, its possible:http://bgr.com/2013/12/30/wii-u-gamepad-pc-games/
Sadly not released yet though. Sigh
I don't want to go OT, but they're already giving them the same "care" Disney provides:
I don't want to go OT, but they're already giving them the same "care" Disney provides:
Find, bad example. Criteron then.
The homebrew people had unlimited resources, a different standard (my professor called it responsibility (homebrew) VS professionalism (Nintendo)), no deadline, don't have to worry about customer support, etc.
It is a totally different world and goal.
As you said, Super Metroid, etc. are their classics.
And trying to bring them to Europe and Australia, in their original European form is a good goal, which they unfortunately failed at.
Criterion does not release their work worldwide and reportedly refuses to license their work to other studios who would be willing to bring their work to other parts of the world.
I am not sure about the ROMs being different, but I don't have first hand experience with the Wii U version, and I will likely never have. So I have to rely on your experience, and those of others.
They got rid of the borders (or most of it) on the Wii, by making the emulator stretch the image. That is not good in my opinion, because it is not the original representation, and at least on the Wii looks soft.
I assume it is the same on the WiiU, the emulator is told, to stretch the image.
The different speeds should have been present on all PAL versions, including the Super Nintendo original. Or is the Wii U PAL version a third version (NTSC, old PAL, Wii U PAL) in that regard?
TheMoon
Member
You're being overly dramatic. They care enough that they predominantly switched to NTSC versions. They could've just not bothered at all but they didn't. Boycotting PAL versions is completely fine but if you theoretically want them but ignore even the large selection of NTSC versions, you're being really silly for no good reason.
There is no stretching. It's the original as-intended aspect ratio.
I am still not sure, why the Wii U VC is dropping inputs.
(can a PAL game use the higher horizontal resolution of European PAL standards?)
Anyway, an emulator should create the same image as an SNES does in the end.
On a real Super Nintendo, the image of the game looks like it is mapped to the center of
of a higher resolution output, because it probably is.
And many Wii VC games do just that.
Since the Wii outputs 576i (or 288p?) in PAL50 mode, the result was the same as on a PAL SNES. 480 lines in the center of a 576 lines picture.
(actually it may 448 lines, I am not sure)
But apparently in the case of Super Metroid (or Legend Of Zelda, for example) the output is stretched to fill all pal lines.
If you are referring to the aspect ratio of the final picture it may be the intended ratio.
I wonder what the developers intention was, when they created the PAL versions.
Would they have wanted to adapt their games more, but would not have enough resources/time?
But if you are looking at how the final image is achieved, it is being stretched, so the visible are of the game fills the height of screen. At least that is the case on the Wii VC.
And at least up close it makes the image look softer, because some elements bleed into each other.
by the way: I see that you did not reply to my explanation as to how the Wii and Wii U situations may be different.
The more I look into SNES resolutions on PAL and NTSC systems, the more unsure if the topic I become.
(can a PAL game use the higher horizontal resolution of European PAL standards?)
Anyway, an emulator should create the same image as an SNES does in the end.
On a real Super Nintendo, the image of the game looks like it is mapped to the center of
of a higher resolution output, because it probably is.
And many Wii VC games do just that.
Since the Wii outputs 576i (or 288p?) in PAL50 mode, the result was the same as on a PAL SNES. 480 lines in the center of a 576 lines picture.
(actually it may 448 lines, I am not sure)
But apparently in the case of Super Metroid (or Legend Of Zelda, for example) the output is stretched to fill all pal lines.
If you are referring to the aspect ratio of the final picture it may be the intended ratio.
I wonder what the developers intention was, when they created the PAL versions.
Would they have wanted to adapt their games more, but would not have enough resources/time?
But if you are looking at how the final image is achieved, it is being stretched, so the visible are of the game fills the height of screen. At least that is the case on the Wii VC.
And at least up close it makes the image look softer, because some elements bleed into each other.
by the way: I see that you did not reply to my explanation as to how the Wii and Wii U situations may be different.
Some of the Wii U versions are indeed a newer version. They've "optimised" them, so they're stretched and play faster. They're still running at 50Hz while the Wii U is outputting at 60, so in the case of games that require some precision input, you've just got to hope you're not pressing it in that frame delay or you can find you're dead... But at least it's at a faster speed!
My reaction to the news about DKC2:
That's it Nintendo, I'm not buying more VC games on my PAL WiiU. Unless of course you do the one reasonable thing: Provide an option to download the 60hz version of ALL the games, including ones you've already released. When you can't even be consistent within one series released over the course of 3 weeks, I just don't fucking want to support you.
That's it Nintendo, I'm not buying more VC games on my PAL WiiU. Unless of course you do the one reasonable thing: Provide an option to download the 60hz version of ALL the games, including ones you've already released. When you can't even be consistent within one series released over the course of 3 weeks, I just don't fucking want to support you.
Can you give some examples?
As stated numerous times in this thread,
Zelda Link to the Past, Super Metroid, Donkey Kong Country 2, Balloon Fight.
Isn't Kirby also one of them? Or is that just the original 50Hz version with no optimisation at all?
Balloon Fight is a good one since we saw that in 50Hz originally and then it got patched to be "optimised", so we even managed to see the difference! Super Metroid & Kirbys Adventure also do this.
Not sure what's up with Link To The Past and Harvest Moon though as I don't own them... The PR says that only the music has been sped up...
iirc, its an "optimized" 50hz release.
Nah, it doesnt. Music on the SNES is the same speed regardless of region because it is independently controlled by the SPC700 sound chip.
The sprite speeds are what is sped up.
I mean, what is changed about them.
Esspecially curious about Zelda and Super Metroid?
Super Metroid already had changes in the SNES PAL version
Maybe you should read the thread from the start. Its been explained numerous times, I'm not in the mood to explain it all again, unfortunately. It's tiring to have to repeat the same thing over, and over and over again.
I did read from the start yesterday, and I just went over the first 2 pages of the thread again with the search function.
Let me focus on one aspect of Super Metroid then, if you or somebody else don't mind answering it:
How is the sprite speed different compared to the SNES PAL version?
The locals and the bomb timer messages are translated as well, and the later could be considered important
(Or did they drop those in the Wii U version?)
The German translation is not good by the way (says Mother Brain is the leader, and skips a lot of the intro text).
And IIRC the original manual told you what to do at the bomb timer anyway, at least for the first time.
I don't have a Wii U, so I rely on explanations and other sources to see the differences.
So it would be nice, if you could get into details
Doczu
Member
I don't own the game (yet), but from what i've read and heard the game has been sped up to 60hz and is missing frames from animations because of that and it makes some moves more difficult, such as wall jumping. There has been another thread about this problem, mostly about Super Metroid (with pictures and videos). On mobile right now, so i don't have the patience to search for it.
Starwolf_UK
Member
From what I can gather Kirby's Adventure and Super Metroid were optimized by making the main character move at 6/5 their speed so when the game is run at 5/6 the speed they move the same. However, their enemies and world are left at 5/6 of the speed (so you can't just do a balloon fight and speed the emulation up because then Samus and Kirby would be too fast then...US ROM could break savestates). Like Robin64 mentioned a bit earlier you can exit the room of the first boss only in the PAL version of Super Metroid because of this (Samus can outspeed the door closing...).
In other news. I really shouldn't bother with Nintendo UK customer support. I guess I do it for my own amusement as this response was baffling:
As for Konami, their support ticket form didn't even have Wii U as an option (come to think of it do they even have any non VC games on Wii U?) and due to "technical difficulties" their response time is going to be slower. I'm seriously expecting a "contact Nintendo" response here but there is a chance I don't get that so for that reason it is worth exploring.
In other news. I really shouldn't bother with Nintendo UK customer support. I guess I do it for my own amusement as this response was baffling:
My reply was blunt; why are nearly all of the Virtual Console releases on the Wii U US versions of the game then? I have to play this silly ball game for a week for the ultimate Forwarded to an appropriate department (TM)...and never heard from again.
As for Konami, their support ticket form didn't even have Wii U as an option (come to think of it do they even have any non VC games on Wii U?) and due to "technical difficulties" their response time is going to be slower. I'm seriously expecting a "contact Nintendo" response here but there is a chance I don't get that so for that reason it is worth exploring.
Doczu
Member
The idea of spamming Nintendo for a reply why the play with us is good, but it would really need a whole gaf movement to achieve something. Synchronized twitter attacks with questions, spamming the facebook page with more than one guy, sending the same e-mail by all users here and finally sending letters. Anyone up for a weekend fight with Nintendo? Because i would bite Super Metroid and Harvest Moon if the games will be replaced by proper 60hz versions.
But haven't those Super Metroid changes always been part of the PAL version.
Being able to exit the door at the first boss definitely was, and you can find some different frame data in Samus movement on TASvideos.
I also remember seeing a table that compare her speed data, but I can not find it anymore.
(No idea about Kirby, and I don't have my PAL NES version anymore)
It is great that you are doing this
To bad, Nintendo or other companies rarely answer those kinds of questions.
And the people who do answer rarely know the whole deal, unfortunately.
Slightly OT:
The only time I got a good technical answer, was when I was making queries about the PAL-Wii using S-Video instead of RGB (turned out it was an error on their website, and customer support was aware)
Thank you,.
I will try to keep searching
Robin64
Member
Yeah, the "optimisation" was done back in the day on those sprites. Kirby and Samus both move at 6/5 speed in the PAL versions on SNES (where the rest of the enemies do not)
Not me.
soxinthebox
Member
I keep checking the store and it doesn't seem to be up yet
TheMoon
Member
It's up. It unmistakably lists German and English and has the "blabla European blabla PAL" description.
Hmm, doesn't list German and English for me (says English/French instead), but it does have:
"This is the European version of the game, which was optimised originally by the developer to offer gameplay and music speed similar to the US version. Demos and animations may run at PAL speed. The aspect ratio has been corrected for this release."
soxinthebox
Member
Downloading