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[Liabe Brave]

TAA with CBR like methods will lead to a very blurry image if there isn't a sharpening pass at the end, see Rainbow Six Siege for example. But it will also lead to a very stable image and will often work very well to hide the artifacting, see Rainbow Six Siege again for example. ...Would've been nice if Siege had a sharpening pass, but the game came out when alternate rendering methods were in its infancy and weren't very developed. AFAIK it isn't even using a checkerboarding pattern, which I'd guess would've further improved the quality of image compared to what it has.

Siege actually is using a checkerboard pattern, inspired by Sony's work in this area. I think part of the reason it remains soft is intentional, to help cover the flaws in their method of reprojection. TAA doesn't seem particularly strong at hiding CBR artifacts; any AA can do the same with blur. Siege attempts to remove them instead with a sawtooth filter pass, and also with what amounts to a fullscreen blur effect from universal value clamping. It seems Guerrilla developed the most effective artifact removal with difference blending, and improved it further on Pro with the hardware-based ID buffer support.

I've had a chance to do deeper research on several older games, and have made additions to regular, VR, and Boost Mode lists. Let me know if you have any questions. Any assistance people can give by providing screenshots, videos, or links to games--especially ones with question marks or in table 3 of the OP--would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Einhandr]

Taking advantage of some of the trade deals going on at GameStop and picking up a pro today. Subbed to the list for reference. I only have a 1080p display but it looks like there are enough enhancements for users with 1080p displays despite what I initially thought.

 

[B D Joe]

I see Rime is listed as supporting HDR , but it's the only game i own that doesn't show in HDR on my TV

i have about 10 other titles all work fine so i know the pro and sony tv are compatible but is there a trick to getting RIME to work?

 

[FZW]

Any chance Doom will get PS4 Pro enhancements? I think it is on the list for Xbox One X.

It probably will, time will tell

 

[adamsapple]

Any chance Doom will get PS4 Pro enhancements? I think it is on the list for Xbox One X.

The only mention of it getting an XBX patch is a brief appearance in the montage video. I don't think ID or Beth have made any official comment whatsoever.

Either way, if it gets an XB X patch, I would be very confident it'll get a Pro patch too (see Witcher 3 kerfuffle)

 

[Liquid-Swords]

Thanks for this great thread. If anyone has any knowledge if Dead by Daylight is improved at all with pro, please post your impressions.

 

[Jedi2016]

I see Rime is listed as supporting HDR , but it's the only game i own that doesn't show in HDR on my TV

i have about 10 other titles all work fine so i know the pro and sony tv are compatible but is there a trick to getting RIME to work?

Some games have an option for it in the menus somewhere. In fact, now that I think about it, all of the games I have with HDR are activated through the menus.

 

[B D Joe]

Some games have an option for it in the menus somewhere. In fact, now that I think about it, all of the games I have with HDR are activated through the menus.

RIME has no such option in the menus, the devs have stated it's the default setting in the unreal engine so no options

however, i've also seen on other forums people saying rime doesn't support HDR to add to the confusion

The problem is every other game 10+ i own all automatically activate HDR mode on the tv or ask if you want to switch it on. RIME doesn't do anything like that which makes me think it's going to be patched in at a later date?

unless someone who owns a hdr tv and rime can comment on how their version works?

 

[Gitaroo]

Some games have an option for it in the menus somewhere. In fact, now that I think about it, all of the games I have with HDR are activated through the menus.

Nex machina doesn't. It just turn on when hdr support is detected by ps4. No way to turn off in game.

 

[The Lamonster]

Just want to thank the OP.

This thread is amazing and I am constantly referring to it. Nice work!

 

[SimplexPL]

Any info on Eliteangerous? Supposedly it has normal and "performance" mode.

 

[adamsapple]

Any info on Eliteangerous? Supposedly it has normal and "performance" mode.

From the developers:

Will PS4™Pro have options to favour performance or favour resolution?

The PS4™Pro will have an option to choose between Performance/Quality. Performance means the game runs as smoothly as possible, Quality means it looks as good as possible but runs slightly slower than Performance. Both options on the PS4™Pro are smoother than the regular PS4™ experience.

Will PS4™Pro support 4K? And if outputting to a 1080p display, will there be supersampling? Are there going to be options to enable or disable it?

No, 4K and Supersampling will not be supported on PS4™Pro at launch. As listed above the PS4™Pro options are “Performance & Quality” settings.

No super-sampling, doesn't support 4K (probably means enhancements only over 1080p). Performance mode could mean unlocked frame rate and Quality could have better effects/better AA.

I guess we won't know exact specifics until someone does a breakdown.

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

Will the Crash remasters support HDR?

 

[DJ Lushious]

Will the Crash remasters support HDR?

The Crash Trilogy OP says the following about Pro support:

N. Sane Trilogy features an n.creased resolution of 1440p and n.hanced graphics in PS4 Pro mode.

The statement is not sourced, but I wish we knew more.

 

[Necro900]

The Crash Trilogy OP says the following about Pro support:



The statement is not sourced, but I wish we knew more.

https://youtu.be/Rp_NbsW8wyY?t=2m23s


The devs themselves confirmed it here. No mention of HDR though

 

[Weyland Y.]

Any info on Eliteangerous? Supposedly it has normal and "performance" mode.

I've tried both Performance and Quality mode and both options seem to have issues:

Performance mode: Serious screen tearing. Not smooth at all.
Quality mode: Less screen tearing but still there, but now also includes frame pacing / judder issues.

This also reported by someone in the main Elite Dangerous thread. Quite disappointed Hopefully Frontier will sort it out soon enough. The Xbox version doesn't seem to have any of these issues.

 

[RoboPlato]

The Crash Trilogy OP says the following about Pro support:



The statement is not sourced, but I wish we knew more.

DF says it also has improved shadow maps and ambient occlusion on Pro and some of the real time cutscenes don't drop in framerate.

 

[Sorcerer Supreme]

is yakuza 0 any better with boost mode? i couldn't find any digital foundry or fps test videos on the game.

 

[Shin-Ra]

is yakuza 0 any better with boost mode? i couldn't find any digital foundry or fps test videos on the game.

Yes, stable 60fps with no tearing in the stress points running through the streets.

 

[spectator]

Performance mode: Serious screen tearing. Not smooth at all.
Quality mode: Less screen tearing but still there, but now also includes frame pacing / judder issues.

Yikes!

 

[Liabe Brave]

I've tried both Performance and Quality mode and both options seem to have issues:

Performance mode: Serious screen tearing. Not smooth at all.
Quality mode: Less screen tearing but still there, but now also includes frame pacing / judder issues.

Can you please post some 60fps video showing these issues? I'd like to be able to include some analysis in the thread. It would be especially helpful if you could find an existing video running on standard PS4, and then replicate the scenario as best you can. That would allow comparison between all three modes, and not just the Pro ones. But anything you can do would be much appreciated!

is yakuza 0 any better with boost mode? i couldn't find any digital foundry or fps test videos on the game.

The third post in this thread, the one that's differently colored, includes Boost Mode enhancements. While you should take these with a grain of salt, Yakuza 0 is there.

 

[mileS]

I had about 40 hours in on Yakuza 0 before boost mode. Played about another 50 after boost mode. It helps screen tearing and the rare framerate drops when running by certain places in each city. No reason not to use it here.

 

[Retro Edge]

Can you please post some 60fps video showing these issues? I'd like to be able to include some analysis in the thread. It would be especially helpful if you could find an existing video running on standard PS4, and then replicate the scenario as best you can. That would allow comparison between all three modes, and not just the Pro ones. But anything you can do would be much appreciated!


The third post in this thread, the one that's differently colored, includes Boost Mode enhancements. While you should take these with a grain of salt, Yakuza 0 is there.

Digital Foundry is doing a video about it.

 

[philm87]

Never played a Yakuza game. I really enjoyed Sleeping Dogs so you reckon I'd like Yakuza 0?

 

[adamsapple]

Never played a Yakuza game. I really enjoyed Sleeping Dogs so you reckon I'd like Yakuza 0?

Yakuza 0 isn't like Sleeping Dogs but it is an EXCELLENT game regardless. Yakuza is more similar to a much more refined Shenmue than the GTA/Sleeping Dogs model.

 

[pixelbox]

Siege actually is using a checkerboard pattern, inspired by Sony's work in this area. I think part of the reason it remains soft is intentional, to help cover the flaws in their method of reprojection. TAA doesn't seem particularly strong at hiding CBR artifacts; any AA can do the same with blur. Siege attempts to remove them instead with a sawtooth filter pass, and also with what amounts to a fullscreen blur effect from universal value clamping. It seems Guerrilla developed the most effective artifact removal with difference blending, and improved it further on Pro with the hardware-based ID buffer support.

I've had a chance to do deeper research on several older games, and have made additions to regular, VR, and Boost Mode lists. Let me know if you have any questions. Any assistance people can give by providing screenshots, videos, or links to games--especially ones with question marks or in table 3 of the OP--would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

GG has experience with resolution manipulation. 😁

 

[xxRONN1Nxx]

So I can't find the Samsung ks8000 thread so I'm going to ask here.

Anytime I play an HDR game on my pro my TV gives a notification saying an HDR video is playing. This morning playing Rachet and Nex Machina I noticed I'm no longer getting the notification when said games boot up. I can hit the button and see the res is UHD and also says HDR. Anybody else notice this?? I mean it still displays hdr but I want the notification....you know piece of mind.

 

[belvedere]

I've tried both Performance and Quality mode and both options seem to have issues:

Performance mode: Serious screen tearing. Not smooth at all.
Quality mode: Less screen tearing but still there, but now also includes frame pacing / judder issues.

This also reported by someone in the main Elite Dangerous thread. Quite disappointed Hopefully Frontier will sort it out soon enough. The Xbox version doesn't seem to have any of these issues.

In one of the Frontier PS4 launch streams one of the developers acknowledged the tearing issue and it was implied that they were taken by surprise or almost as if it were a bug.

I don't see why eliminating tearing on either version would be a problem.

 

[Relix]

Does boost mode cause glithces in God of War?

 

[Dictator93]

Wait... Siege based its checkerboarding based upon Sony's stuff? I was under the impression that ubi titles were the ones that brought the idea to the forefront.

 

[The Hamburglar]

I've tried both Performance and Quality mode and both options seem to have issues:

Performance mode: Serious screen tearing. Not smooth at all.
Quality mode: Less screen tearing but still there, but now also includes frame pacing / judder issues.

This also reported by someone in the main Elite Dangerous thread. Quite disappointed Hopefully Frontier will sort it out soon enough. The Xbox version doesn't seem to have any of these issues.

Is elite 60fps?

 

[adamsapple]

Does boost mode cause glithces in God of War?

Currently playing it, absolutely no issues so far. I've finished up till the Helios segment.

Game runs at an extremely consistent 60 FPS with boost mode.

 

[Amneisac]

So I can't find the Samsung ks8000 thread so I'm going to ask here.

Anytime I play an HDR game on my pro my TV gives a notification saying an HDR video is playing. This morning playing Rachet and Nex Machina I noticed I'm no longer getting the notification when said games boot up. I can hit the button and see the res is UHD and also says HDR. Anybody else notice this?? I mean it still displays hdr but I want the notification....you know piece of mind.

It was a firmware update for that TV that removed the notifications.

 

[veryslowhand]

Is there any reason not to have boost mode always on?

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Is there any reason not to have boost mode always on?

I watched alot of Digital Foundry/NXgamer videos testing out boost mode, the only bug they found was in Tomb Raider definitive edition where the game would sometimes randomly pause.

So yeah, just leave it on.

 

[Jedi2016]

Does boost mode cause glithces in God of War?

Is there any reason not to have boost mode always on?

The only thing I heard about was the aforementioned glitches in GoW3, but then digging a little deeper, and they show up regardless of whether Boost Mode is on or not, so there you go. Also answers your question, Relix.

 

[RoboPlato]

Wait... Siege based its checkerboarding based upon Sony's stuff? I was under the impression that ubi titles were the ones that brought the idea to the forefront.

I think I remember Sony's documentation on checkerboarding and other reconstruction methods actually referencing Siege. Siege isn't straight checkerboarding either. It uses MSAA reconstruction, a form of checkerboarding, and some other stuff.

Insomniac is the first studio I remember doing this stuff. Last gen they used MSAA reconstruction in a few PS3 titles. No surprise that they're leading the pack this gen with an excellent reconstruction technique with temporal injection. I can't overstate how impressed I am with that method. Want to know more info about it and see other devs embrace it.

 

[Liabe Brave]

GG has experience with resolution manipulation. ��

Wait... Siege based its checkerboarding based upon Sony's stuff? I was under the impression that ubi titles were the ones that brought the idea to the forefront.

Ubisoft Montreal explicitly said that they took the idea directly from Guerrilla; Rainbow Six Siege originally used the exact same alternating column method from Killzone. It's not clear to me if the change to an alternating checkerboard pattern was something they came up with. They said "Base idea came about to solve aliasing issues" which kind of sounds like it arose from within the studio. But they also say "The idea of using MSAA 2x was bouncing around since the beginning", and there are possible Sony inspirations for that. We know from EA DICE that checkerboard support was part of the PS4 Pro architecture planning starting in 2013. It was an evolution of work by Sony WWS Advanced Technology Group methods. Oversampling for supersized intermediate AA render targets--though not yet to increase final buffer resolution--was tested by Sony even before the original PS4 launched. While Siege was in production, so were Sony internal testbeds for CBR (and "geometry rendering" based on MSAA).

Without a more in-depth talk from someone, I don't think we can determine who first used the checkerboard pattern. It seems abundantly clear that the direct technical foundations were laid by Sony's internal teams, but it wouldn't be surprising if Ubi Montreal pushed it further. This kind of iterative interchange is a hallmark of creative engineering. And the process didn't arise out of nowhere at Sony either, of course; this paper from 2005 is a clear description of the benefits and challenges to taking advantage of temporal coherence in rendered imagery. The authors are discussing raytraced frameless rendering, not CBR, but in the reconstruction steps especially it doesn't take much of a leap to close that mental gap. So bleeding-edge research projects back then become a related consumer-grade approach a decade later.

Insomniac is the first studio I remember doing this stuff. Last gen they used MSAA reconstruction in a few PS3 titles. No surprise that they're leading the pack this gen with an excellent reconstruction technique with temporal injection.

Do you have citations for this? I know of temporal reconstruction techniques used during last gen for various effects, but I've never heard of full framebuffer reconstruction being used.

 

[RoboPlato]

Ubisoft Montreal explicitly said that they took the idea directly from Guerrilla; Rainbow Six Siege originally used the exact same alternating column method from Killzone. It's not clear to me if the change to an alternating checkerboard pattern was something they came up with. They said "Base idea came about to solve aliasing issues" which kind of sounds like it arose from within the studio. But they also say "The idea of using MSAA 2x was bouncing around since the beginning", and there are possible Sony inspirations for that. We know from EA DICE that checkerboard support was part of the PS4 Pro architecture planning starting in 2013. It was an evolution of work by Sony WWS Advanced Technology Group methods. Oversampling for supersized intermediate AA render targets--though not yet to increase final buffer resolution--was tested by Sony even before the original PS4 launched. While Siege was in production, so were Sony internal testbeds for CBR (and "geometry rendering" based on MSAA).

Without a more in-depth talk from someone, I don't think we can determine who first used the checkerboard pattern. It seems abundantly clear that the direct technical foundations were laid by Sony's internal teams, but it wouldn't be surprising if Ubi Montreal pushed it further. This kind of iterative interchange is a hallmark of creative engineering. And the process didn't arise out of nowhere at Sony either, of course; this paper from 2005 is a clear description of the benefits and challenges to taking advantage of temporal coherence in rendered imagery. The authors are discussing raytraced frameless rendering, not CBR, but in the reconstruction steps especially it doesn't take much of a leap to close that mental gap. So bleeding-edge research projects back then become a related consumer-grade approach a decade later.


Do you have citations for this? I know of temporal reconstruction techniques used during last gen for various effects, but I've never heard of full framebuffer reconstruction being used.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/list-of-rendering-resolutions.41152/

Ratchet & Clank: Tools of Destruction = 960x704 (2xAA, AA samples used to reconstruct 720p)
Ratchet & Clank: A Crank in Time = 960x704 (2xAA, AA samples used to reconstruct 720p)

All I could find quickly was this Beyond3D thread but I know I've seen it discussed in more detail elsewhere.

Also it makes sense that the Shadow Fall technique was iterated on by the Siege team, then Sony referenced their work in the Pro documentation. I always forget about Shadow Fall's because I didn't care for that implementation but everything since Siege and onward has been pretty neat. These methods are a great boon for consoles wanting to push beyond 1080p and I expect they'll stay for a while.

 

[Weyland Y.]

In one of the Frontier PS4 launch streams one of the developers acknowledged the tearing issue and it was implied that they were taken by surprise or almost as if it were a bug.

I don't see why eliminating tearing on either version would be a problem.

They released patch 1.0.3 today and I'm happy to report they seem to have fixed the issues. No more screen tearing and a much smoother experience in both modes.

 

[Alexious]

Hey Liabe, are you sure about Rime supporting HDR? I can't find anything about that on the Web.

 

[Vashetti]

This guy just picked up FFXII and has a Pro

Just picked it up. Going to go at it slow, playing ff14 at the same time.

What screenshots do you need to work out if the game downsamples for 1080p displays or not?

Pro set to 1080p? Screenshots set at 1080p or 4K?

 

[adamsapple]

This guy just picked up FFXII and has a Pro



What screenshots do you need to work out if the game downsamples for 1080p displays or not?

Pro set to 1080p? Screenshots set at 1080p or 4K?

I think you need to set your Pro to 1080p via system menus.

 

[Vashetti]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=242643972&postcount=249

Pro set to 1080p on top
4K on bottom

What do you think?

 

[adamsapple]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=242643972&postcount=249

Pro set to 1080p on top
4K on bottom

What do you think?

Not a pixel counter but just eye balling it the 4K screen seems to have a little less aliasing on the window frames and the pillar in the foreground, maybe the game doesn't do down sampling ? Maybe I'm going blind Could use a proper pixel counter here.

 

[mileS]

Not a pixel counter but just eye balling it the 4K screen seems to have a little less aliasing on the window frames and the pillar in the foreground, maybe the game doesn't do down sampling ? Maybe I'm going blind Could use a proper pixel counter here.

doesn't look like it does. Square enix games have had the worst PS4 support it seems. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

[Liabe Brave]

Hey Liabe, are you sure about Rime supporting HDR? I can't find anything about that on the Web.

Everything in the lists is subject to change, because it's all based on samples and not entire games (even the analyses by Digital Foundry, NXGamer, and others which are more in-depth than mine).

That said, I'm basing HDR support in Rime on this interview with the lead programmer. He says it has the default Unreal Engine 4 level of support. It should be said that was several months before launch, so potentially something could've changed.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=242643972&postcount=249

Pro set to 1080p on top
4K on bottom

What do you think?

Thanks for the shots! I'd like to give you better news, but I'm pretty sure there's no downsampling. Also, the high-res version seems to be rendering at 1440p; I got a couple larger counts as well, but nothing cleanly divisible. The relatively slight difference between 1080p and 1440p often leads to this difficulty, so I wouldn't put much confidence in the slight variability of my results. The lower number is much more likely.

 

[Vashetti]

Thanks for the shots! I'd like to give you better news, but I'm pretty sure there's no downsampling. Also, the high-res version seems to be rendering at 1440p; I got a couple larger counts as well, but nothing cleanly divisible. The relatively slight difference between 1080p and 1440p often leads to this difficulty, so I wouldn't put much confidence in the slight variability of my results. The lower number is much more likely.

Sigh.

Thanks though.

 

[Flandy]

Everything in the lists is subject to change, because it's all based on samples and not entire games (even the analyses by Digital Foundry, NXGamer, and others which are more in-depth than mine).

That said, I'm basing HDR support in Rime on this interview with the lead programmer. He says it has the default Unreal Engine 4 level of support. It should be said that was several months before launch, so potentially something could've changed.


Thanks for the shots! I'd like to give you better news, but I'm pretty sure there's no downsampling. Also, the high-res version seems to be rendering at 1440p; I got a couple larger counts as well, but nothing cleanly divisible. The relatively slight difference between 1080p and 1440p often leads to this difficulty, so I wouldn't put much confidence in the slight variability of my results. The lower number is much more likely.

wtf?
It's 1440p on a Pro when Kingdom Hearts is 4k60?

 

[Alexious]

Everything in the lists is subject to change, because it's all based on samples and not entire games (even the analyses by Digital Foundry, NXGamer, and others which are more in-depth than mine).

That said, I'm basing HDR support in Rime on this interview with the lead programmer. He says it has the default Unreal Engine 4 level of support. It should be said that was several months before launch, so potentially something could've changed.


Thanks for the shots! I'd like to give you better news, but I'm pretty sure there's no downsampling. Also, the high-res version seems to be rendering at 1440p; I got a couple larger counts as well, but nothing cleanly divisible. The relatively slight difference between 1080p and 1440p often leads to this difficulty, so I wouldn't put much confidence in the slight variability of my results. The lower number is much more likely.

I was actually the author of that interview. My takeaway was that they were referring to internal HDR support, the one we've had in games since Half-Life 2, not the support for HDR displays. I couldn't find anyone mentioning that the game actually features HDR after release.

Anyway, I'll ask the developers for a clarification.