They can either be worthless or show they should have gone with Sanders (I realize you're not making both those argument).
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Analysis: Poor turnout not responsible for Trump's victory.
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They can either be worthless or show they should have gone with Sanders (I realize you're not making both those argument).
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Regardless of how candidates present themselves it's still voters who make the choices. It cracks me up how the same people who blame voters for not picking Sanders over Clinton spin around and absolve Trump voters of any responsibility for their actions.
jack_package_200
Banned
I think they see those who voted for Trump as kindred spirits.
That's what makes him appealing
Both hilary and trump did as well as the last two presidential candidates with the white vote if I recall.
Actually according to exit polls it was a 37-58 spilt for the white vote compared to a 38-60 spilt in 2012.
These are all national results. That's not how it works.
If it was a national poll Clinton would have won comfortably in November.
jack_package_200
Banned
My father's side of the family is an outlier. They became Democrats after Trump became the nominee and are looking to stay that way.
Translation: Those people holding those contradictory views flipped from Sanders to Trump when Sanders lost.
Do they live in a metropolitan area? (city or suburb)
King Tubby
Member
People keep seizing on bigotry as the only explanation when it's only one side of the equation. Hillary was a horribly uncharismatic figure who carried all the baggage and image problems typically associated with career politicians, and Trump was able to capitalize. She couldn't even go after Trump effectively on his pussy tape because she had to deal with Bill Clinton being a possible sexual predator himself.
Oh any excuses to vote for Trump as not being motivated by racism, sexism, or just plain stupidity are flimsy as fuck. That's never been in contention.
Frozenprince
Banned
The planet will be burning in nuclear hellfire and still this god damn primary gonna be a slap fight.
Y'all need to watch Frozen or something
Y'all need to watch Frozen or something
People keep seizing on it as the primary explanation because that's what the data is telling us. Yes, there were plenty of other factors, but Trump's naked white nationalism is THE primary factor in how these election results played out.
There were. Just not enough of them, not enough voting Clinton instead of third-party, and not enough of them in the right places.
CrocMother
Banned
Why people insist on white nationalism as the main factor instead of sexism is puzzling to me.
Camper Van Beethoven
Banned
Why do people feel so comfortable painting an entire race like this?
jack_package_200
Banned
Some do and and some don't. All hate Trump and the current republican party with every fiber of their being.
Because racism was predicting Trump voters in a way it didn't predict Romney/McCain voters, and the effect was significant. (See: The Nation article I posted earlier in the thread and the accompanying graphs.)
Yes, sexism was a factor. ("Corrupt" is language that just coincidentally only manages to stick to female public figures!) but the effect of race on the elections (both primary and national) cannot be understated.
CrocMother
Banned
So explain the voters who voted for both Obama and Trump.
King Tubby
Member
If Obama could have run for a third term he beats Trump handily. Yes, Trump would still have gotten the bigots on board, maybe even more motivated than ever, but those bigots have voted in previous elections too. He wouldn't have been able to pick up the slack where it ended up mattering. Those figures of voters switching from Obama to Trump would likely have gone down if the Democrats ran a candidate who was at least moderately likeable instead of actively offputting.
"One of the good ones."
The Albatross
Member
Do you think the average Trump supporter from Indiana or Pennsylvania thinks that Obama is "one of the good ones"?
No, Obama and Trump both effectively sold a version of America that appealed to these voters. They had stronger messages than their opponents, both of which played in the theme that America is not working for you, so I'm coming in to change that. Trump's campaign slogan and Obama's 2008 slogan are virtually the same message. Hillary's campaign slogan was "I'm with her." It's not just slogans either, it typifies their campaigning.
The Clinton campaign seemingly never did a retrospective for why they nearly lost to Sanders in the primary, and performed poorly against Sanders in working class districts. Sanders played on the same anti-chinese, anti-mexican, pro-worker fear mongering that Trump did, and it hurt Clinton both times.
SolidSnakex
Member
Or why not just simply blame the person that was supposed to be dealt the easiest victory in presidential history? The person who then subsequently ran one of the worst and most arrogant campaigns in presidential history? Seriously, why the hell are so many people willing to absolve Hillary and her team of blame for losing to Donald Trump of all people? It can't be her, it has to be white nationalists, it has to be sexist, or it has to be Comey. Anyone but Hillary.
There's always talk about 4 more years of Trump, but if Democrats can't accept that Hillary is the reason we lost, then there will be 4 more years of Trump because Democrats will have learned nothing from this election. And they will go and pick another candidate that's incapable of connecting to people.
CrocMother
Banned
"One of the good ones" doesn't apply to voting for President of the United States.
There are more people who would vote for a black man than a woman of any color.
Father_Brain
Banned
writing off all white Trump voters as irredeemably racist instead of finding an alternative means to mobilize them* (or rather, just the fairly modest minority of them needed to win elections) and thus ensuring that they vote Republican forevermore sure seems like a shitty way to protect minorities from white supremacy, but what do I know
*tweet from the co-author of the Nation diversity article, please note
*tweet from the co-author of the Nation diversity article, please note
I'm not absolving Hillary of blame, I've talked about their screwups at length before, because they did indeed screw up, and Hillary never should have run in the first place.
If you think that "only one thing can be to blame", you badly need to improve your critical thinking skills.
There were a lot of reasons that Trump was able to barely squeak out the win, and if you don't acknowledge all of them and instead scapegoat one, you are going to keep failing.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
It's not the only explanation but it's a pretty big factor. The bigotry was right out front and interwoven with Trump's platform. Add to that the fact that objectively Trump was far less qualified as a politician let alone diplomat.
People that voted for Trump were either indifferent to those things or on board with them, and it's not ignoring the problems with Clinton's campaign to point those facts out. She banked on the better nature and intelligence of the electorate and lost badly.
poppedcollar69
Member
So, gaf, why did any black voters stay home on election day?
If only the Bernie Bros had actually come behind the candidate their party voted for instead of feeling the need to constantly, during the election, remind us that she was horrible and they really didn't want to vote for her but I guess I will probably because they didn't really have a choice (but really I'm too cool for her guys. Everyone still thinks I'm cool right?) Maybe that just wasn't a great strategy on their part for keeping a racist racist out of the white house either.
I honestly don't think a lot of Bernie Bros had a party so much as they had a candidate. When Bernie lost the primaries, the Ds lost a large portion of the Bernie supporters by default. Right or wrong, that's what happened. As a Hillary Clinton supporter from day one (I caucused for her in IA) I wish I could take it back and put Bernie in for that reason alone. No matter how petty it may seem, a good amount of these people weren't aligning with the Democratic party and were never going to fall in line but the people voting Hillary would have fallen in line for Bernie.
Frozenprince
Banned
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ts-killing-timothy-caughman-article-1.3009736
So yes.
One of the good ones.
Karsticles
Member
Again we focus on white people over Evangelical Christians for some reason, even though they had a >80% vote for Trump.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Everyone already knows Evangelicals are largely hypocrites and have no issues with bigotry
CrocMother
Banned
This actually kinda proves my point about sexism. It's not a "one of the good ones", it's a "women are stupid".
The rural population is going to be going into a permanent decline in a few years' time. They aren't going to be getting any less angry when the trends of urbanization don't stop.
The issue is that growing up in these monolithic, isolated places makes people racist. They never have to interact with people who aren't like them, and getting them to unlearn these ideas and teach them to overcome their fear reflex isn't happening as an adult. (This isn't to say that city people aren't racist either, but they're also not supporting people like Trump.)
Dammit Carlin is a fucking genius.
"WWC" being used in place of "Rural Whites" is starting to drive me nuts for similar reasons.
TheLaughingStock
Member
I'm with her wasn't a big deal. I think the big deal was Hillary's team trying to peddle a narrative that America was great already and arguing Trump's core message was too pessimistic. Their spin didn't work. Moreover, the success of folks like Obama, Sanders, and Trump suggests the desire for transformational change was not overblown. Things are in bad shape and not looking good hence the political instability.
Ricerocket
Member
Plausible, the way Hillary was campaigning, it seemed she even thought it was an automatic win. She didn't really go anywhere during the election but the same few states over and over again.
Obama worked hard and went everywhere and connected with the people, Hillary just pretend it was auto win.
Sigh.
Obama worked hard and went everywhere and connected with the people, Hillary just pretend it was auto win.
Sigh.Nordic4tKnight
Member
Hillary related thread? I predict that it will reach 20 pages in no time.
Extra Sauce
Member
Is racism the only explanation that hasn't been debunked by a study yet?
poppedcollar69
Member
What? No. Trump and all the gop built their campaigns on demonizing the man and everything he did. If Obama was regarded as 'one of the good ones', then this would not have been effective. And it was.
Trump did get significantly less votes than Romney.
Not enough in the states that mattered and where Obama defections occured.
This was partly Obama's fault. He wanted to end his presidency on a good note and started legacy building. Hillary idiotically went with it despite political winds sharply against establishment politics and the voter's current perception of DC politics that gave Trump and Sanders enormous political capital.
Romney didn't run a white supremacist.
Where the votes were coming from changed significantly in this election relative to '08/'12.
Hillary won a sizable number of Romney voters in cities/suburbs (and many also voted third party) while Trump won a sizable number of Obama voters.
poppedcollar69
Member
I'm not talking about 2012.
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