There's a rational reason 15-year olds aren't allowed to vote. Wiz Khalifa would be president.
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Another 30 old teacher and 15yr old student but this time with a twist
- Thread starter Elginer
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There's a rational reason 15-year olds aren't allowed to vote. Wiz Khalifa would be president.
Hari Seldon
Member
I think even countries that allow consent at 15 have exceptions for positions of authority.
Isn't this why countries around the world adopted sex offenders registers though? Specifically to mark offenders so they can't hurt others again, and as a way of alleviating pressure on penal systems by forming punishments for the less emotionally and physically violent crimes? Neighbours and employers know the skinny, without depriving someone of a fifth/sixth of their life and liberty.
I'm not trying to open up a debate on whether there's a badness scale when it comes to rape, but not all crimes are equal and you could get less than 15 years for killing someone while intoxicated. For drugs offences. For arson. For a while heap of life endangering stuff.
I know she won't serve the full 15 years but I do agree that sentencing is sometimes relativistically insane in some cases. Sentencing in personal crimes like this should be weighed on an ongoing / periodical evaluation of damage to the victim IMO.
The law in this case is based on the idea held by the vast majority of society that a 15 year old cannot rationally make choices.
And that belief is based on the experience of virtually every person who has interacted with a 15 year old on Earth.
It's not always like that. Sometimes they see that they'd make the kid a "legend" for bagging a teacher, so they go after those kids. But predators also tend to go after isolated kids too. Kids that are lonely and might be more open to their advances, and if they told anyone who would believe that the weird kid scored with the hot teacher?
It can go either way. Often it is a power play.
No, that is not the reason the law is as it is. The reason is that we believe that many (but not all) 15 year olds make consistently poor choices. Despite the fact that they may be capable of making good ones as well, and that certain 15 year olds are mature and can consistently make good decisions, in order to protect the entirety of 15 year olds (including those who are and are not mature) we create the legal fiction of them being unable to consent.
It does not in any way mean that we believe that 'a 15 year old cannot rationally make choices' and that idea is absurd.
metalslimer
Member
Even if the roles were reversed the sentence would be fucked up. I'm sorry but considering the taxpayer has to pay for these sentences it benefits no one
And don't get me wrong she is piece of shit that deserves to have this follow her but the excessive prison sentences are always so stupid
And don't get me wrong she is piece of shit that deserves to have this follow her but the excessive prison sentences are always so stupid
Derekloffin
Member
If the statutory rape laws say life (now 15 years) is appropriate, it's appropriate. Maybe we do need to discuss those laws some, but this is a pretty clear cut case of breaking the law.
EdibleKnife
Member
Ah. Ok cool. Well there are tons of 15 year olds who haven't figured anything out about themselves sexually yet, tons who are gay, uninterested or otherwise who might only engage in such an activity out of fear or expectation and might come away severely damaged emotionally. It's cool that you have the fantasy but the reason the law exists is because it's inherently a situation where an adult could use their authority actively or inactively to manipulate someone still developing. I don't see what imagining a situation like this back when you were 15 (when most people probably had no handle on the consequences of actions in the first place) means to the situation at hand. Dude may be psyched now and emotionally distraught later.
Yeah it is insane. Sentences in this country are whacked out. The fact that life was on the table is fucking insane.
That said, the age difference isn't what bothers me either, it's the power dynamic. A teacher in HS can literally keep a good student from getting into a top school if they decide to fail them or give them a low grade. That kind of power requires a high level of moral character which she clearly doesn't possess.
2 years served and loss of job (and likely husband) would be punishment enough.
And yet there are countries that do have the age of consent at 14,15 and 16 in addition to letting these people be legally responsible for themselves. Also, Austria allows voting at 16 in some issues.
But like i said, these are not arguments for rationality.
American law and society. See above.
Though im not sure a country with death penalties is the one who should be consulted regarding these matters.
This is unfair to the victim because it puts them under constant scrutiny instead of letting them move on with their lives, while also putting the burden on them for proving the severity of the crime.
Angelus Errare
Banned
Seriously don't understand why these people just don't fuck people their own age. We have so many damn apps and websites dedicated to it. Shit boggles the mind. I'm sure she could have found some 2x year old dude who looks like he's stuck looking 16 and live out her fantasies that way.
I mean really, I don't understand risking your life over something like this.
I mean really, I don't understand risking your life over something like this.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
Given the circumstances and that she'll never be able to work with underage children again, I think 5.5 years (if she gets parole) is punishment enough.
Yep, it's really not that hard. No sympathy for her.
So if we just lowered the age of what we consider a minor than it would be fine to exploit them? What an excellent level of cultural advancement you must have.
You realize laws are written by men, and not infallible, right? That tons of laws and sentencing guidelines are straight up bullshit? 'The law is the law and therefore it must be just' is infantile. Man, we really need to have basic jurisprudence taught in high school or something.
She's in a confined space with the boy a couple hours a day for months at a time. Attraction can develop, that's human. Not resisting the temptation was where she went wrong.
First off there are many differences in the male and female brain, but I suspect the more important distinction is in hormones. Both of these are inarguable facts. I'm happy to supply citations,Google can as well.
Saying there is no difference and it is all society is ignorant as hell of human biology. Though I do believe society reinforces and exaggerates the differences.
That said, I agree that she deserved punishment, and a man doing the same would as well.
xKilltheMx
Member
why was that guy who posted about her being Hot banned? are we not allowed to comment on a criminals attractiveness?
anyhow 15 years is horseshit for that crime, people who commit murder get less time than this. Life is insane as fuck.
In fact havent other rapists gotten less time? why is it so high? What am I missing here?
anyhow 15 years is horseshit for that crime, people who commit murder get less time than this. Life is insane as fuck.
In fact havent other rapists gotten less time? why is it so high? What am I missing here?
In what way do you not agree that this was rape?
Yes, because that's clearly what i said.
/s
My whole point comes from the fact that you claimed a 15 year old can not make these decisions rationally. You offered subjective evidence that is based on values from your country and i in return offered some that is the opposite of yours. So until i see some behavioral or neurobiological studies that support your claim, i will treat it as it is, subjective statements trying to pass off as fact.
That's not the argument.
Hari Seldon
Member
Name one country where a teacher is allowed to fuck a 15 year old student.
The vast majority of 15 year olds are not mature enough to make reasonable decisions. There is no way to objectively evaluate how mature a 15 year old is any more than there's any way to evaluate how mature a 6 year old is. It's especially doubtful that anyone in a sexual relationship with someone in a position of authority over them is making rational decisions of consent.
Can't believe this is a real post.
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051
5 seconds. I still think you're jumping through hoops to rationalize statutory rape.
Warm Machine
Member
Don't know about teachers but I believe Spain has a 14 year old age of consent.
Derekloffin
Member
You realize I said "Maybe we do need to discuss those laws some"?!
When did I claim they were infallible?! That's right I didn't.
So, having sex should be illegal until 25. Bravo.
I think you just like to babble your opinions as universal truth, despite there being no conclusive or one sided empirical evidence for it.
Hari Seldon
Member
They probably have an exception for teacher/student or positions of authority.
I just provided it. I hate this game of 'show me the evidence' but I gave you some.
Where's yours to justify the relationship between a 30-year old and a 15-year old?
Dragonborn
Member
15 years Olds are incapable of making decisions? At 15 I knew exactly what I was doing.
Hell, I know some 30 year Olds that don't know what they're doing. It all depends on the person.
Hell, I know some 30 year Olds that don't know what they're doing. It all depends on the person.
I still fail to see how gender plays any role in how we should perceive this case. Explain to me why, if the exact same story played out but with reverse genders, everything would suddenly look completely different?
Here's a quote from your googled study. "These brain differences don’t mean that young people can’t make good decisions or tell the difference between right and wrong. It also doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be held responsible for their actions. But an awareness of these differences can help parents, teachers, advocates, and policy makers understand, anticipate, and manage the behavior of adolescents."
Sorry, does not say anything about 15 year olds not being rational to the point of not having personal responsibility.
So, we are back to square one where it's basically you telling us something is a fact while it's not.
And yeah, i made no claims about the issue.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I don't feel like you can say this. There are many sides to maturity, and I've seen much older people in their 30s and 40s have areas of their character which contained immense immaturity.
And that's the thing.
You can be immature about some things, but mature about others. Sexual maturity is one of many things which is highly subjective. Some people aren't ready until they are older, and that is as much as a psychological fact, as a biological fact.
Saying that the vast "majority" of 15 year olds aren't mature to even to make reasonable decisions is just a strawman thrown out in hyperbole. Obviously that's not true. That is one a case by case basis, judged against an infinite of biased definitions of what reasonable maturity is.
hydragonwarrior
Member
Which is why I think these cases should be looked at on a case by case basis and analysis of the victim's traumatic impact to assess the punishment.
Especially with media being more prevalent, I think there were a good many of us who were looking or sneaking in porn in there early teens. Our hormones were crazy then. I mean, how many of us guys did not have a crush on one of our teachers at one point? The moment he had an avenue to satisfy that desire, he was going to go for it.
Again, she ought to be punished because the rules are there, but 15 years is ridiculous.
SkeptiMism
Member
I'm not a mod, but it's extremely bad taste to comment on how a rapist looks hot. It's messed up.
Plus, probably more importantly, it's a derailment.
Some 15-year-olds are capable of it sure. But a lot of them aren't. Yes, a 15-year-old may know what he's doing when he's consenting to it, but it's quite likely he hasn't reached the emotional maturity to really understand it. That's why a lot of 15-year-olds who have cases like this, end up regretting it later.
And yes, a lot of adults aren't really capable of that emotional maturity either. It is unfortunate, but we can usually expect that adults is capable of it. We can not and should not assume that of a teenager.
In the same way that many suicides aren't contemplated for much longer than the few seconds it takes to make the decision, I suspect that this form of self destructive behaviour may be similar.
In some cases I've no doubt that people are just confident that they won't be caught.. In some cases I'm sure the perpetrator has been mentally fucked up and compromised themselves, and that they're trying to 'get' something out of sex. But I'd wager a great majority also have some glitch in the brain that doesn't tell them the point where being impulsive goes one step too far. We seem to live in an age of on demand hedonism, on demand titillation, and for my money - it's like these people just don't stop to think. If these people really thought long and hard about what they were doing, or could imagine the consequences in realistic and vivid terms - they wouldn't do things like this.
This is a far cry from your first statement, which was:
Do you see the difference between saying that a majority cannot make reasonable decisions and that 15 year olds cannot rationally make choices? Because it's a big one, and not just semantics. In the first example, it's possible for a 15 year old to consent to sex with an adult in some circumstances, in the second it is not. Pretty huge, and relevant, difference.
I'll show you where you said it. Please see the bolded section in your quote below, a clear appeal to the infallibility of the law:
'What the law says is appropriate is appropriate' - that is a statement of infallibility.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Do you really not understand what he's saying? I would think its practically self-evident he doesn't think that a legal construct saying a 15 year can't consent doesn't vitiate the fact that the 15 year old in this case almost assuredly actually did consent.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
If we're discounting the statutory rape part (for some reason I don't know), do those things equal 5 years in the pen?
Derekloffin
Member
Congratulations, you proved you can't read, because at no point in that bolded statement did I say it was infallible. Try again.
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