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Another Story of PS3 (PS3 A/V articles by Masakazu Honda at PC Watch)

Bad_Boy

time to take my meds
All credit to one @ b3d for the find.

Masakazu Honda currently runs a mini-series articles titled "Another Story of PS3" in his regular series articles (Weekly Mobile News) at PC Watch. It reports about the audio/video capability of the PS3 by interviewing Sony developers in charge of audio/video players in the PS3. Here are some findings gleaned from them. As I'm no audio/videophile, I hope someone clarify how much they should be appreciated in the world of buffs.

The first in the series is about the SACD player.
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2006/1122/mobile357.htm
* Though PSX (the DVD recorder) was too weak to decode SACD in software, it was expected that the PS3 would be able to. SCE began the development in a relatively earlier stage. But even at the beginning of this year the SACD decoder was 6 times slower than realtime to convert surround DSD sound into PCM.

* The manager of the Software Platform division at SCE who were in charge of software codecs and players estimated it'd be impossible to finish if they kept that pace. A developer from the Sony HQ who developed softwares for VAIO PC came to SCE and they assigned the development of an SACD decoder codec to him.

* SACD is stored in the DST format (= compressed DSD). DST changes compression methods and parameters every 1/75 seconds, which eats huge processing load when decoding. In the first 2 months the developer optimized it into realtime processing. Then he threw away the old source code and wrote a faster new codec in 3 weeks with the knowledge he had gained. It uses 5 SPEs - 3 SPEs for DST decompression, and 2 SPEs for DSD to PCM conversion.

* After that, he debugged it while consulting the professional audio equipments division of Sony that developed the DSD format itself. It took 6 months.

* Then the audio tuning specialist at the audio division of Sony began to use a PS3 to check the sound of the then unreleased HD receiver TA-DA3200ES. He pointed out where to fix in the PS3's digital audio processing to SCE. It was in the early October, and the dynamic range at that time was 140dB which was the initial goal set by another Sony developer who developed DSD. The PS3 firmware version 1.10 is this version with a few updates. The decimation filter of the SACD decoder outputs at 24bit/88.2kHz.

* However, last Friday, Honda went to a place for the interview with Ken Kutaragi for some audio/videophile magazine. They brought there an even newer version with a decimation filter at 24bit/176.4kHz. Also, the 64-bit DP internal data of the decimation filter is rounded down to 30-29-bit instead of 24-bit for the output. The dynamic range is over 170dB and the theoretical number reaches 180dB in 30-bit. Honda says its sound was really good even when compared with the sound of the 1.1 version firmware. The Sony developer attributes the goodness to the fact that the software SACD codec of the PS3 processes all data in 64-bit double precision. This new firmware version will be available when the BD remote is released in December.

* As for improving CD sound, upsampling is apparently easy by writing a FIR filter. But it is not yet in the PS3 software player as it takes some time to choose an appropriate upsampling function and noise shaping algorithm.

The #2 is about the BD video player.
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2006/1130/mobile358.htm
* Since the standards for BD-ROM such as BDMV and BD-J were delayed, particular player functions were developed later while 2 years has already passed for the development of software decoding function for codecs such as H.264.

* H.264 decoding itself was not very difficult for Cell with moderate optimization and they could play a movie in realtime at the first try unlike very difficult SACD optimization. However, because they began the development without knowing the final Blu-ray standard, they set the goal very high for decoding 2 full HD H.264 streams at 40Mbps simultaneously. Besides the clockspeed of the devkit was lower than the final product which made the development difficult. The current decoder can decode full HD H.264 with 3 SPEs.

* The current BD/DVD player for the PS3 does internal pixel processing at 16-bit per RGB. (The output depends on the display color depth.) Though the 1.0 firmware was 8-bit per RGB, Kutaragi ordered the change of the design at the final product review and it was upgraded to 16-bit in the 1.1 firmware.

* It's still not enough for TV and theater projectors that can display the original YCrCb stored in BD and DVD. For example the current PS3 player lacks gradation in brighter and darker parts of pictures when compared to Panasonic DMP-BD10. The reason why the internal processing is done in RGB is because RSX can't have 2 color spaces at the same time. Honda suspects they used RGB for the player because in the prototype design they planned to overlay XMB in RGB onto the picture of BD/DVD. In the final design XMB is not overlayed onto the player.

* Actually Kutaragi also ordered the development of the version with YCrCb internal processing at the final review. In the firmware version released in December it becomes possible for a user to choose RGB or YCrCb.

* The current player converts interlace to progressive only for SD movies. Right now SCE developers are working to improve DVD picture quality after they implemented YCrCb. After that it's planned to do something for 1080i to 1080p conversion. Though the RAM size can be an obstacle for it, SCE developers say they can do it by splitting the load between Cell and RSX.

* Currently there are complaints from users about non-existent DVD upscaling in the PS3. As for the interlace-to-progressive before upscaling, the current player has it already. There was a team at the division for broadcast equipments at Sony that does research for improving image quality by using the NVIDIA shader language. They ported it onto RSX. After Cell does noise reduction and other filters, RSX does interlace-to-progressive conversion. Though the current algorithm has bugs for some video sources, SCE says the conversion precision will be upgraded by future updates. Also the noise reduction filter is currently optimized for video sources with relatively many MPEG noises recorded with a video recorder. SCE knows lack of picture details because of it and will provide new default values for noise reduction by checking recording formats and media IDs for DVD discs. As for upscaling, they are doing the research to develop a high-quality multi-tap upscaling filter that balances the load between Cell and RSX. They also plan to use the non-original luminance information generated in upscaling for HDMI 1.3 deep color.

* Currently it's known that the audio quality of DTS is especially good compared to other audio codecs as heard in playing 480p DVD via HDMI with more bandwidth for the audio. SCE don't know the definitive reason. They just ported the reference source code provided by DTS with as high precision as possible.

* An SCE developer recommends trying 1.5x fast-forward playback in the PS3 BD player to see the power of Cell. When it's connected to a display via 1080/60p, it becomes very smooth as Cell has an enough margin for video decoding. In 1.5x fast-forward playback it decodes all frames then inserts them into 60fps with sped up audio.

* SCE declared that they'd support 1080/24p in the PS3.

too lazy to bold :x
 

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
the december firmware update sounds like it's going to be pretty nice. i hope they add 720p blu ray downscaling and an iq fix for legacy games.
 

Surreal

Member
s. As for upscaling, they are doing the research to develop a high-quality multi-tap upscaling filter that balances the load between Cell and RSX. They also plan to use the non-original luminance information generated in upscaling for HDMI 1.3 deep color.

So... does this mean they're working on upscaling for DVDs?
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
* However, last Friday, Honda went to a place for the interview with Ken Kutaragi for some audio/videophile magazine. They brought there an even newer version with a decimation filter at 24bit/176.4kHz. Also, the 64-bit DP internal data of the decimation filter is rounded down to 30-29-bit instead of 24-bit for the output. The dynamic range is over 170dB and the theoretical number reaches 180dB in 30-bit. Honda says its sound was really good even when compared with the sound of the 1.1 version firmware. The Sony developer attributes the goodness to the fact that the software SACD codec of the PS3 processes all data in 64-bit double precision. This new firmware version will be available when the BD remote is released in December.


WHAT!?!!?


KLee ... Get in here

0_o
 

theBishop

Banned
Its awesome that they are doing so much work on the Blu-ray player, but what i really want is a definitive high-quality Blu-Ray movie release in a film i actually like.

Tallagega Nights has a piss-poor transfer. Nearly indistinguishable from DVD on my Samsung 32" LCD.

Has anyone heard anything about the American Psycho release in February?

And please tell me Fight Club is in the works...
 

morph

Banned
* H.264 decoding itself was not very difficult for Cell with moderate optimization and they could play a movie in realtime at the first try unlike very difficult SACD optimization. However, because they began the development without knowing the final Blu-ray standard, they set the goal very high for decoding 2 full HD H.264 streams at 40Mbps simultaneously. Besides the clockspeed of the devkit was lower than the final product which made the development difficult. The current decoder can decode full HD H.264 with 3 SPEs.

Extremely impressive.

With firmware updates and the power under the hood it could be that PS3 remains the best Blu-Ray player out there for many years to come.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
* Currently there are complaints from users about non-existent DVD upscaling in the PS3. As for the interlace-to-progressive before upscaling, the current player has it already. There was a team at the division for broadcast equipments at Sony that does research for improving image quality by using the NVIDIA shader language. They ported it onto RSX. After Cell does noise reduction and other filters, RSX does interlace-to-progressive conversion. Though the current algorithm has bugs for some video sources, SCE says the conversion precision will be upgraded by future updates. Also the noise reduction filter is currently optimized for video sources with relatively many MPEG noises recorded with a video recorder. SCE knows lack of picture details because of it and will provide new default values for noise reduction by checking recording formats and media IDs for DVD discs.



As for upscaling, they are doing the research to develop a high-quality multi-tap upscaling filter that balances the load between Cell and RSX. They also plan to use the non-original luminance information generated in upscaling for HDMI 1.3 deep color.

OMFG ... auto-calibrating the noise reduction for DVD on a per-title basis.

That is ****ing amazing!!



Plus upscaling .... with interpolated color!?!?!? It will actually have better color than BluRay :lol




This is insane ... the PS3 will potentially have some of best image quality of any DVD player (and the best w/regards to certain aspects).

Unreal
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
morph said:
Extremely impressive.

With firmware updates and the power under the hood it could be that PS3 remains the best Blu-Ray player out there for many years to come.


When it supports the most common HD standard - 720p - you can start talking it up. Until then it's still kind of a joke. I have no doubt it will, but right now it's retarded.
 

karasu

Member
Stinkles said:
When it supports the most common HD standard - 720p - you can start talking it up. Until then it's still kind of a joke. I have no doubt it will, but right now it's retarded.

rain20on20parade.jpg
 

morph

Banned
Stinkles said:
When it supports the most common HD standard - 720p - you can start talking it up. Until then it's still kind of a joke. I have no doubt it will, but right now it's retarded.

Why would you watch Blu-Ray in 720p?

You should probably stick to DVDs if all you care about is 720p.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
morph said:
Why would you watch Blu-Ray in 720p?

You should probably stick to DVDs if all you care about is 720p.


You should probably stick to posting things that make sense.


Fortified Concept said:
Yeah I'm sure that's why you troll every PS3 thread.

Oh get a grip. Post my link history of trolling every PS3 thread. I bought one I like it. I will like it better when I get 720p Blu Ray playback.
 
Stinkles said:
When it supports the most common HD standard - 720p - you can start talking it up. Until then it's still kind of a joke. I have no doubt it will, but right now it's retarded.

You should be happy stinkles. From the sounds of it, the problem you're having with the black levels should disappear with the december update.

* It's still not enough for TV and theater projectors that can display the original YCrCb stored in BD and DVD. For example the current PS3 player lacks gradation in brighter and darker parts of pictures when compared to Panasonic DMP-BD10. The reason why the internal processing is done in RGB is because RSX can't have 2 color spaces at the same time. Honda suspects they used RGB for the player because in the prototype design they planned to overlay XMB in RGB onto the picture of BD/DVD. In the final design XMB is not overlayed onto the player.

* Actually Kutaragi also ordered the development of the version with YCrCb internal processing at the final review. In the firmware version released in December it becomes possible for a user to choose RGB or YCrCb.
 
Stinkles said:
Oh get a grip. Post my link history of trolling every PS3 thread. I bought one I like it. I will like it better when I get 720p Blu Ray playback.

So if I buy a X360 I can troll it all I want? Is this rule in the forum TOS?
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Stinkles said:
:lol

I know. Buzzkill. But I am super aggravated because psychologically, I don't know how good my picture looks, because it ain't native.


image0029nc7.jpg


I feel you man, but it's really not a joke. I can't wait for this firmware update.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
fortified_concept said:
So if I buy a X360 I can troll it all I want? Is this rule in the forum TOS?


No, now you're being unreasonable. I pointed out that I don't troll in every, or even any PS3 thread, but you continue to insist I do. I am posting in this thread because it's about something that concerns and affects me directly.
 

-Rogue5-

Member
morph said:
Extremely impressive.

With firmware updates and the power under the hood it could be that PS3 remains the best Blu-Ray player out there for many years to come.

Does that mean, theoretically, it could decode one (albeit short, even on a dual layer BR) 80Mbps stream? And am I to understand that, eventually (soon I hopefully) the standard BR bit rate will be 40Mbps?

I'm very surprised that they can do dual 40Mbps bit rate since the quality difference between 18Mbps (like The Transporter) and 24Mbps (like Kingdom of Heaven) is painfully obvious. 40Mbps is nearly double 24 (forget 80Mbps because with audio you probably couldn't fit a 90min movie on even 50gigs), so I couldn't even imagine how much better it would be.

Just for personal reference, what bit rate is HDDVD shooting for? Also what's better AVC or Mpeg2 when both are running at 18Mbps?
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
-Rogue5- said:
Does that mean, theoretically, it could decode one (albeit short, even on a dual layer BR) 80Mbps stream? And am I to understand that, eventually (soon I hopefully) the standard BR bit rate will be 40Mbps?

I'm very surprised that they can do dual 40Mbps bit rate since the quality difference between 18Mbps (like The Transporter) and 24Mbps (like Kingdom of Heavy) is painfully obvious. 40Mbps is nearly double 24 (forget 80Mbps because with audio you probably couldn't fit a 90min movie on 50gigs), so I couldn't even imagine how much better it would be.

Just for personal reference, what bit rate is HDDVD shooting for? Also what's better AVC or Mpeg2 when both are running at 18Mbps?


Damn man great questions. I hope somebody answers them.
 
Stinkles said:
No, now you're being unreasonable. I pointed out that I don't troll in every, or even any PS3 thread, but you continue to insist I do. I am posting in this thread because it's about something that concerns and affects me directly.

It's not what you said it's how many times you've done this. You go to PS3 threads specifically to say something negative to remind us how much PS3 sucks. Especially positive PS3 threads are honey to the bee type of situation for you.

squatingyeti said:
Can we get a "all my posts feature a heavy dose of irony" tag for fortified?
choc_cake said:
:lol QFT!

Well since irony is involved I'm sure you two can find one post I made this month where I troll X360. In case you don't reply I'll just assume that you couldn't.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Stinkles said:
SACD stuff is almost worth exploring the olde catalog for. Does anyone sell 'em cheap?

YourMusic has a very limited selection of SACDs on the cheap ...

http://www.yourmusic.com/search/index.html?search_type=albums&search_text=sacd&do_search=1&x=15&y=6

The above link was based on doing a search by selecting 'Album Title', and searching for SACD. It's possible there may be some others that weren't found this way, depending on the quality of their search and title descriptions.




Amazon has some decent prices as well ... simply search for SACD.

Once the search is done, on the left you'll see 'Narrow by Category'.

'Music' and 'Classical Music' will have lots of SACDs. Also, above 'Narrow by Category', you can click 'Related Searches: hybrid sacd' (hybrids all include a CD layer).

Just make sure to read the descriptions carefully. Sometimes Amazon screws up their categories (mixing CD's SACD's, DVD-A, etc.)




I'll try to find some other places with cheap SACD's tomorrow.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
-Rogue5- said:
Does that mean, theoretically, it could decode one (albeit short, even on a dual layer BR) 80Mbps stream? And am I to understand that, eventually (soon I hopefully) the standard BR bit rate will be 40Mbps?

I'm very surprised that they can do dual 40Mbps bit rate since the quality difference between 18Mbps (like The Transporter) and 24Mbps (like Kingdom of Heaven) is painfully obvious. 40Mbps is nearly double 24 (forget 80Mbps because with audio you probably couldn't fit a 90min movie on even 50gigs), so I couldn't even imagine how much better it would be.

Just for personal reference, what bit rate is HDDVD shooting for?


BluRay has a maximum A/V bitrate of 54.0 Mb/s.

video - 40.0 Mb/s



HD-DVD has a maximum A/V bitrate of 36.55 Mb/s

video - 28.0 Mb/s




Also what's better AVC or Mpeg2 when both are running at 18Mbps?

AVC, as well as VC-1, are much better than MPEG2 at the same bitrate.






BTW - ~40 Mb/s AVC video from an HDD is what Sony has used/uses to demonstrate their high-end front and rear projection TV's, as well as BluRay (conceptually), at trade-shows as well as high-end A/V stores.

In a word, the image is staggering.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
fortified_concept said:
Well since irony is involved I'm sure you two can find one post I made this month where I troll X360. In case you don't reply I'll just assume that you couldn't.

My friend, the irony is that you constantly call people fanboys, you constantly say people troll, and yet you do not look in the mirror. If you need a definition of irony let me recommend a good read http://dictionary.reference.com/

If you still don't get it, let me help you further

learntoreadkp3.jpg
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
fortified_concept said:
It's not what you said it's how many times you've done this. You go to PS3 threads specifically to say something negative to remind us how much PS3 sucks. Especially positive PS3 threads are honey to the bee type of situation for you..


Sigh.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Onix said:
Just noticed that 1080p/24 is confirmed!

0_0


That was the best part ya tard.


For folks who don't know what that means, it basically means movie footage (most discs) will look way more natural in motion. And HD video will continue to be source or up to 60fps.
 

-Rogue5-

Member
Onix said:
BluRay has a maximum A/V bitrate of 54.0 Mb/s.
video - 40.0 Mb/s

HD-DVD has a maximum A/V bitrate of 36.55 Mb/s

video - 28.0 Mb/s

AVC, as well as VC-1, are much better than MPEG2 at the same bitrate.

BTW - ~40 Mb/s AVC video from an HDD is what Sony has used/uses to demonstrate their high-end front and rear projection TV's, as well as BluRay (conceptually), at trade-shows as well as high-end A/V stores.

In a word, the image is staggering.

When I went to CES this year it was prior to knowing the nuances of BR. When I saw Telladega Nights on the PS3 I remember thinking that what I saw at CES back in January was much better...at that time (two weeks ago) I thought my mind was playing tricks on me since it'd been 11 months since January, but I guess not. Again, this was before I knew they were releasing BR movies at different bit rates.

I think BRs at 40Mbps/AVC could be a retardedly big leap from the even the 18/24 Mpeg2 BRs that are the norm now. Hell, even HDDVD's at 28Mbps will be a noticeable improvement over 18Mbps BRs (let alone upscaled DVDs.) I was feeling very "meh" about HD formats after watching Fifth Element (yeah I know it's one of the worst transfers) and Ricky Bobby over the past couple of weeks, but after seeing Kingdom of Heaven (which is "only" 24Mbps) I've regained my interest. I've heard Black Hawk Down is just as good, so I'll have to borrow that from somewhere soon (it's 24Mbps too, right?)

Any word on what/when the first BR with 40Mbps video will be? I mean, now I just want 40Mbps/AVC for the sake of seeing what HD can actually do.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Stinkles said:
That was the best part ya tard.

For the future? ... yes.

For now? ... it impacts the least amount of people (other than deep color DVD obviously).




Very few TV's accept 1080p/24 and display a multiple of 24 (either 72 or 120 generally) at this time.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Onix said:
For the future? ... yes.

For now? ... it impacts the least amount of people (other than deep color DVD obviously).




Very few TV's accept 1080p/24 and display a multiple of 24 (either 72 or 120 generally) at this time.


Right, but for movie fans it's mana from heaven. Movies will actually look and "feel" like original prints. Or at least as close as you can get.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
-Rogue5- said:
When I went to CES this year it was prior to knowing the nuances of BR. When I saw Telladega Nights on the PS3 I remember thinking that what I saw at CES back in January was much better...at that time (two weeks ago) I thought my mind was playing tricks on me since it'd been 11 months since January, but I guess not. Again, this was before I knew they were releasing BR movies at different bit rates.

I think BRs at 40Mbps/AVC could be a retardedly big leap from the even the 18/24 Mpeg2 BRs that are the norm now. Hell, even HDDVD's at 28Mbps will be a noticeable improvement over 18Mbps BRs (let alone upscaled DVDs.) I was feeling very "meh" about HD formats after watching Fifth Element (yeah I know it's one of the worst transfers) and Ricky Bobby the past couple of weeks, but after seeing Kingdom of Heaven (which is "only" 24Mbps) I've regained my interest. Hopefully I'll see Black Hawk Down soon (it's 24Mbps too, right?)

Any word on what/when the first BR with 40Mbps video will be? I mean, now I just want 40Mbps/AVC for the sake of seeing what HD can actually do.

Unfortunately sony seems to be fumbling around with its releases even with the advanced codecs and BD50 both being available now, and the studios that are supporting both hd-dvd and blu-ray (warner in particular) seem to be using the same exact transfer for both formats.

Sooo, until either someone gets their act together, or if hd-dvd drops out of the race (who knows if it'll happen with things as they are), we're looking at blu-ray performing equally with HD-DVD at best.
 
EviLore said:
Unfortunately sony seems to be fumbling around with its releases even with the advanced codecs and BD50 both being available now, and the studios that are supporting both hd-dvd and blu-ray (warner in particular) seem to be using the same exact transfer for both formats.

Sooo, until either someone gets their act together, or if hd-dvd drops out of the race (who knows if it'll happen with things as they are), we're looking at blu-ray performing equally with HD-DVD at best.

Agreed. Time for some predictions as to when HD-DVD will be all but dead. And in the very worst case scenario, BD along with it. But I'm not predicting that. :)
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
re: ps3's pack-in blu-ray movie... I haven't actually watched mine, but according to the review sites and general opinion it seems to have some of the worst picture quality of any BD release so far.

That's just incredibly stupid. The first BD movie ps3 owners watch could in many cases be their last with such a poor release skewing perception of the format.

YOU'RE NOT HELPING MATTERS, SONY.
 

-Rogue5-

Member
EviLore said:
re: ps3's pack-in blu-ray movie... I haven't actually watched mine, but according to the review sites and general opinion it seems to have some of the worst picture quality of any BD release so far.

That's just incredibly stupid. The first BD movie ps3 owners watch could in many cases be their last with such a poor release skewing perception of the format.

YOU'RE NOT HELPING MATTERS, SONY.

No, but seriously, that's the truth. Like I said, coming in to the HD format wars I was really excited by just how much of an increase in quality it was. Then, upon viewing the two BR that I got (for free mind you), I was turned off. After discussing blu-ray/PS3 with a friend he insisted I watch his Kingdom of Heaven BR...that's when I noticed the 24Mbps on the back (5th Element and Ricky Bobby don't have the video bitrate on the back of theres, but a lot of the BRs at Best Buy did, which is where I compared.)

Now I'm back to where I started and I'm excited for HD in general -- gaming, movies, and sound.
 

Argyle

Member
All I know is that a few months ago, we were debating whether or not PS3 could even meet the Blu-Ray spec for max AVC bitrate (see here...)

Now they are saying they can decode 2x 40Mbps AVC streams in realtime? OMGWTFBBQ (if true)...
 
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