Ant-Man |Spoiler Thread| I Think Our First Move Should Be Calling The Avengers

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jon bones said:
pretty sure he dies in 91
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Mh, okay. Still doesn't make too much sense for me with Obadiah leading the company because Tony wasn't ready. I imagined that he started doing that when Tony was a teen and it just kept going until way later.

Found the Cover that said: Tony Stark takes reigns at 21.
And I believe that Obadiah had lead the company for quite some time at that point? I can't really find information on that, but it seems like the timeline is a little messed up here :P
 
I have no idea why people are making a big deal out of the subspace Wasp image, given that the film is already telegraphing her potential return. There being an image is no surprise. The only thing that didn't surprise me was that we didn't see her more clearly or even have her return outright.
 
Scientist Supreme! said:
I think Bucky wants to get rid his arm. I saw somewhere one Twitter the machine his arm was in was some type of metal cutting machine.
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That's what I took away from it. Figured he was trying to rip/ cut it off in some industrial machinery.

Ignatz Mouse said:
I have no idea why people are making a big deal out of the subspace Wasp image, given that the film is already telegraphing her potential return. There being an image is no surprise. The only thing that didn't surprise me was that we didn't see her more clearly or even have her return outright.
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Well clearly she hasn't been cast in any capacity- they have a family photo at the end and her face is obscured by her sun hat. That's what gave it away to me that they'll probably bring her back, but don't have anyone in mind for the part yet. I think Douglas said he wants Zeta-Jones to play her. I don't hate that idea, and her being trapped would explain the age difference.
 
I really appreciate how this movie works. It avoids almost everything that annoyed me about earlier Marvel movies/superhero movies in general.

It was super self-aware without being too heavy handed about it, so the whole thing just felt really fun. No 9/11 in this movie.

The story had a clear plot from the beginning that lasted until the very end. It started a little slow, but there were never really parts where it just seemed like random shit was happening (second half of Cap 1, all of the Thor movies, Iron Man 2).

I was legitimately charmed by the family dynamics for both of the Ant-Mans. That girl was adorable and Hank did a really good job at being a man consumed by loss. Even the friends didn't get annoying!

Really I think the only thing thing this movie was missing was a more compelling villain, but the actor did a good job and it's not really that noticeable. I'm just sick of the "he's the hero but bad" thing that's been going on since Iron Man. That and the movie could have used a really strong director, but considering the constant switches that's understandable. It's not as good as Guardians in terms of style.

Also, holy shit. Was I just not paying attention, or were there no stupid glowing blocks in this movie? Is the Pym particle an infinity stone or something?
 
Fury451 said:
That's what I took away from it. Figured he was trying to rip/ cut it off in some industrial machinery.



Well clearly she hasn't been cast in any capacity- they have a family photo at the end and her face is obscured by her sun hat. That's what gave it away to me that they'll probably bring her back, but don't have anyone in mind for the part yet. I think Douglas said he wants Zeta-Jones to play her. I don't hate that idea, and her being trapped would explain the age difference.
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That would be cool.

My point is that the people pointing this sillouette as a big deal when we already know she's in there, since the hints are so broad.
 
Fury451 said:
That's what I took away from it. Figured he was trying to rip/ cut it off in some industrial machinery.
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Actually, Feige confirmed that Bucky's arm was purposefully locked in that giant vice. I think Bucky is still unstable, Cap & Falcon have managed to capture him but don't want to alert anyone else until they can prove that he's no longer a brainwashed Hydra assassin and that he can be trusted. They need to move him somewhere safer but it needs to be done quietly, and that's where Scott comes in.

Don't think that will go over well with Tony either way. Might be safe to assume that something involving The Winter Soldier is what brings the rift between Steve and Tony.
 
I don't quite understand some of the criticisms painting this movie as generic and predictable. Aside from the finale in an action movie being a convoluted action scene, what was it that made this such a terribly generic movie? The father-daughter interplay isn't especially innovative but it's not like it's something we see all the time in movies either, and it's the first story of its kind that we've seen in a super hero blockbuster. Cross wasn't the best villain but he's more than just a one dimensional standard evil businessman. He has real motivations and insecurities that tie right back into the theme of parentage. The way the film juxtaposed Hank Pym's relationship between 3 different "children," the two men being surrogates, and Scott's tenuous relationship with his daughter felt very fresh and unique. Even the finale is chock full of fun and interesting set pieces that I challenge anyone to describe as predictable. There's more than enough in this movie that made it feel original.

I'm not trying to gush too much though, I know the movie has its fair share of flaws. I wouldn't even put it on the top list of Marvel movies for me. The biggest gripes I have is the slow first act, an overabundance of exposition, and some fairly drab shots during dialogue scenes that causes the movie to drag.
 
Who else had their mind mini-blown with the pronunciation of "Pym?" I've always thought it rhymed with, well "rhyme," not "him."

I was also similarly surprised at the "a" in Thanos being like "dan" and not "day."

I'd never heard either of them spoken before Guardians and Ant-Man. I still prefer my way, though.
 
RyanardoDaVinci said:
Who else had their mind mini-blown with the pronunciation of "Pym?" I've always thought it rhymed with, well "rhyme," not "him."

I was also similarly surprised at the "a" in Thanos being like "dan" and not "day."

I'd never heard either of them spoken before Guardians and Ant-Man. I still prefer my way, though.
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Always knew it was Pym because otherwise the Pimp Particles joke doesn't make any more sense lol
 
" Scotty needs us! Ain't nothing gonna stop us! Ain't nothing!"

police everywhere*

" ... Back it up. Just back up it. Yup. Back it up"
 
Beelzebufo said:
Also, holy shit. Was I just not paying attention, or were there no stupid glowing blocks in this movie? Is the Pym particle an infinity stone or something?
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No Infinity Stones in this movie. Pym Particles are just one of those comic book inventions that could help millions but is specifically used only by superheroes for reasons.
 
EdibleKnife said:
No Infinity Stones in this movie. Pym Particles are just one of those comic book inventions that could help millions but is specifically used only by superheroes for reasons.
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I had thought about this recently. There has to be a whole list of these. In Mark Waid's Fantastic Four run he lists stuff that Reed invents like unstable molecule clothing, and he owns the patent on it and lets other superhero teams like the Avengers use it but they have to pay him royalties.
 
EdibleKnife said:
No Infinity Stones in this movie. Pym Particles are just one of those comic book inventions that could help millions but is specifically used only by superheroes for reasons.
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Sounds like a post Civil War plot point:
The world actually being improved by all the stuff from Stark, SHIELD, Pym, as a sign of goodwill and remorse
 
man imagine if the pym particle is made public, you could have portable ps4, smartphones can get way higher capacities battery, no need to look for parking space anymore, just zap them and take it to your pocket. no more expensive overseas shipping, storage won't be a problem anymore.

I think it might be worth it for the world even if Hydra got a hold of them, lol
 
So, I enjoyed it. Solid movie 3.5/5. Nice hint at Spidey. Some of the non superhero stuff was better than the hero stuff. Movie definitely felt 'Marvelly' at times, but at the same time I never felt it was under the machine's thumb. Definitely interested in the character a bit more. It's a shame it's almost impossible to read the comic books without having to read multiple issues across different heroes and runs.
 
Scientist Supreme! said:
I think Bucky wants to get rid his arm. I saw somewhere one Twitter the machine his arm was in was some type of metal cutting machine.
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To me, I thought it was more of a moment where Cap and Falcon caught up with Bucky and were using the machine to hold his arm down and thus hold him down... but thinking back with the sense of why they might need Scott, I guess it could be that they need some technical help or some shrinking help. Time will tell.
 
Just got back from seeing it, thought it was fantastic! Really well done, good humor with a simple plot & great characters. Michael Pena absolutely stole the show.

I enjoyed this immensely more than I did the first Captain America or Thor movies, which were really quite drab to me. Ant-Man will definitely get more replay value than other freshmen Marvel movies.
 
Pretty limp film. Reluctant hero, poorly-motivated bad guy, victory is achieved by punching. The theme is really confused. Everybody deserves a second chance except this one guy who's mentally-addled or something? They put the good guy and the bad guy in similar suits and gave them the same powers but didn't really draw any parallels between them. So the final battle only has the daughter as stakes, where it should be some philosophical clash. The whole angle with Corey Stoll's brain being fucked up by radiation is particularly confused. Movie keeps gesturing at meaning but never actually articulates anything at all.

Paul Rudd & Evangeline Lilly looking fine and being charming. Fun performances out of Michaels Douglas and Pena. Liked seeing Roger Sterling lol. I really liked the New Husband character, really good step-father emotional conflict there. Used the shrinking premise to pretty solid humorous effect. I really liked the little detour into sub-atomia. Bonkers and cool and existential and abstract, kind of a daring way to cap off your climax.

About as popcorn a film as you could make.

🐜🐜🐜 / 🐜🐜🐜🐜🐜

Beelzebufo said:
there were never really parts where it just seemed like random shit was happening
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Except the little detour to Avengers-town...
 
The villain was far from lacking motivation. He wanted to surpass the mentor/father figure that spurned him and wouldn't let anything get in his way. Lang and Cross are polar ends of Pym's personality and their fight was as much a struggle in ideology over what the pym particle should be used for as it was a bout of fisticuffs. Lang wins not by punching but by sacrificing himself for his daughter. Lang's victory and his return from the quantum realm represent the better side of Pym asserting dominance which is what gives Pym the confidence to confide further in his daughter and let her become the Wasp.
 
Yeah I think Cross had plenty of defined motivation and the fact that he was Hank's "fallen son" made him more of a tragic figure than just being a one-off evil suit.

Reflecting on what's been said about the script changes I don't think I would have been crazy about Wright's Ant-Man. Only a passing mention of Janet and no microverse stuff - Wright certainly would have had his unique visual flair added to the film but in terms of world building it would have been sorely lacking. The trip into the microverse is a massive hint at what makes Ant-Man really stand out amongst other heroes. It's a major part of the comic's DNA and would have been a mistake to omit. Just like Iron Man has his high tech suits, Thor has Asgard and Strange has his magical realms, the microverse is a crucial part of the Ant-Man mythos and it actually bothers me that Wright's script apparently didn't even bring it up.

Janet getting trapped in the microverse and making Hank obsessed with keeping Hope out of the suit really added to their story and made the mid-credits scene feel truly earned.
 
But Cross's brain was broken. Or something?

Pym's "I saw too much of myself in you" was hollow because we haven't seen any dark aspect of his own personality. The worst thing he ever did was to not really understand his daughter. The worst thing Cross did was endanger the stability of global geopolitics so he could make a quick buck. That's not just different in scale it's different in kind.
 
Brakke said:
But Cross's brain was broken. Or something?

Pym's "I saw too much of myself in you" was hollow because we haven't seen any dark aspect of his own personality. The worst thing he ever did was to not really understand his daughter. The worst thing Cross did was endanger the stability of global geopolitics so he could make a quick buck. That's not just different in scale it's different in kind.
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Well if you ask Pym, he'd probably say the worst thing he ever did was either enable his wife's death or create the Pym particle in the first place. You're right, we don't see the dark side of Pym, and it's a misstep by the movie to merely reference it rather than show it, but Pym is also obviously at a different stage in life now than when he first started working with Cross. You get enough of a glimpse of his ferocity and passion in his youth that I thought it worked.
 
Brakke said:
But Cross's brain was broken. Or something?

Pym's "I saw too much of myself in you" was hollow because we haven't seen any dark aspect of his own personality. The worst thing he ever did was to not really understand his daughter. The worst thing Cross did was endanger the stability of global geopolitics so he could make a quick buck. That's not just different in scale it's different in kind.
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Pym's ambition got his wife "killed", and subsequently lost him his daughter and his company. They don't show it, but I bet his "retirement" wasn't very peaceful, with Hydra/SHIELD trying to obtain the Pym Particle formula.

EDIT: what the guy above me said.
 
guek said:
Well if you ask Pym, he'd probably say the worst thing he ever did was either enable his wife's death or create the Pym particle in the first place. You're right, we don't see the dark side of Pym, and it's a misstep by the movie to merely reference it rather than show it, but Pym is also obviously at a different stage in life now than when he first started working with Cross. You get enough of a glimpse of his ferocity and passion in his youth that I thought it worked.
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He was telling off Howard Stark, Peggy Carter, and the Hydra agent. While nobody cared about the Hydra agent because we just met him in that scene, we are supposed to care about Howard and Peggy.
 
Pai Pai Master said:
Yeah I think Cross had plenty of defined motivation and the fact that he was Hank's "fallen son" made him more of a tragic figure than just being a one-off evil suit.

Reflecting on what's been said about the script changes I don't think I would have been crazy about Wright's Ant-Man. Only a passing mention of Janet and no microverse stuff - Wright certainly would have had his unique visual flair added to the film but in terms of world building it would have been sorely lacking. The trip into the microverse is a massive hint at what makes Ant-Man really stand out amongst other heroes. It's a major part of the comic's DNA and would have been a mistake to omit. Just like Iron Man has his high tech suits, Thor has Asgard and Strange has his magical realms, the microverse is a crucial part of the Ant-Man mythos and it actually bothers me that Wright's script apparently didn't even bring it up.

Janet getting trapped in the microverse and making Hank obsessed with keeping Hope out of the suit really added to their story and made the mid-credits scene feel truly earned.
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Wright's Ant-Man would've been flat out fantastic and unique. But I love how this Ant-Man balances being obviously mainstream with throwing in lots of quirky stuff. Like all that Luis stuff is inspired, it's fleshing out a character who's funny but not a joke, Same with how Paxton is a cliche stepfather who's not a bad guy at all - which is down to Rudd and co's ability to improv and make something better than what's on the page.

In fact, I'd argue Ant-Man works because it's a great mesh between clearly planned out sequences and 'shit, let's do another take and see what happens' character beats. Much like the first Iron Man. Because that scene near the end with Scott, Maggie, Cassie and Paxton doesn't feel particularly scripted at all.
 
KevinCow said:
I really liked this one subtle joke:

Baskin-Robbins manager: "I'll do you a solid. On your way out you can grab an Orange Smoothie Blast, and I'll pretend like I didn't see anything."

Scott looks at him like he's insane.

Cut to the next scene, Scott's walking down the street, drinking the Orange Smoothie Blast.
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Theres also Michael Pena's line about how B&R always finds out. Then you later find out he was arrested for stealing two smoothie machines.
 
I really liked Cross as villain. Or rather what is implied. His relationship with Pym seemed very interesting but of course one is limited in what one can show without cutting all of the other stuff. I also liked that they didn't go for a cliched as fuck ending where Pym somehow does some monumental stuff in the pivotal face-off.

The Lone Courier said:
Theres also Michael Pena's line about how B&R always finds out. Then you later find out he was arrested for stealing two smoothie machines.
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Hah, that went completely over my head.
 
For real that end scene at the dinner table was lovely.

Also I loved how Michael Pena bragged about being the only guy to knock that big dude out and Lang rolled his eyes but then Pena has a stone-cold right hook and just drops dudes like nothing.

guek said:
The villain was far from lacking motivation. He wanted to surpass the mentor/father figure that spurned him and wouldn't let anything get in his way. Lang and Cross are polar ends of Pym's personality and their fight was as much a struggle in ideology over what the pym particle should be used for as it was a bout of fisticuffs. Lang wins not by punching but by sacrificing himself for his daughter. Lang's victory and his return from the quantum realm represent the better side of Pym asserting dominance which is what gives Pym the confidence to confide further in his daughter and let her become the Wasp.
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Lang literally does win by punching Yellow Jacket's computer apart. But more importantly, Lang and Cross aren't even on Pym's personality spectrum, they're all three orthogonal.

On bucks: Lang wants them so he can see his daughter; Cross just wants them period; Pym doesn't seem to care about them at all.

On family: Lang wants to do right for his daughter; Cross is angry that his mentor-father didn't trust him; Pym is mis-guidedly guilty about his wife's death.

On power: Lang wants to take it from people who have it; Cross wants to have it; Pym wants to prevent people from getting it in the first place. This one is interesting vis a vis The Avengers: Lang destroys one (if temporarily), Cross just doesn't really consider them except perhaps as something to perhaps, Pym maintains an insistent isolation from them.

On bucks and family, the three dudes are coming at things from completely different angles, all irrelevant to one another. On power at least they're speaking the same terms but they still occupy distinct spaces. I suppose Pym was once an Avenger (or at least a super-powered agent of or cooperator with SHIELD). In any case: Pym never at any point demonstrates tendencies toward either of his protégés' attitudes. Pym never tried to oppose the Avengers or SHIELD, but neither would he enable someone else to oppose them (when Lang accidentally gets in their airspace, Pym even tried to call him off).

So yeah. By the time Cross dons the Yellow Jacket, what does he even represent besides cackling evil? And what does it represent for Lang to oppose him? Specifically, Lang's whole "getting a second chance" thing is a thematic disaster since he straight up ices a dude who's not even in his right mind.
 
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