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[Just_myles]

Precisely my point. In Flash, there is a bigger picture. Also the fact that the whole

Spoiler

Hunter Zolomon

and the team once again

Spoiler

falling for the villain being a close ally

ruse can be reasonably explained and understood. I can see why that would happen.

Now in Arrow, there is no reason for Felicity to upset. As this was pretty clear who established the rules of engagement. This is not the same Oliver from last season and the season before that who was keeping all kinds of secrets.

 

[Jorok Goldblade]

Some Arrow, Flash and Legends concept art:

http://www.newsarama.com/28114-cw-concept-artist-reveals-vixen-firestorm-dr-light-designs-more.html

 

[Joni]

Plus if we backtrack to the Vandal Savage crossover episode, Felicity was going to go full bitch-mode regardless of when Oliver told her. She freaks the fuck out and threatens to leave Oliver because he waited a whole 24 hours to tell her - and then Barry travels back in time and warns Oliver not to do it.

Well, unless he pulled her aside and just told her the truth without being forced to by being discovered.

 

[ChaosZeroX]

She has nothing to do with her own marriage?

Felicity has nothing to do with Oliver and Samantha's son. Absolutely nothing. Its none of her business. The fact that she said that he didn't include her makes no fucking sense. Its not her son at all.

 

[Kyoufu]

I like how any discussion this show throws at us amounts to how terrible some of the characters are (used to be Laurel but now Felicity).

Meanwhile, in the Flash thread...

 

[OdysseusVA]

Meanwhile, in the Flash thread...

Nothing but title suggestions until the show returns

 

[Kyoufu]

Nothing but title suggestions until the show returns

Title suggestions are p bad but we're still conjuring up Zoom theories!

 

[Sephzilla]

Well, unless he pulled her aside and just told her the truth without being forced to by being discovered.

isn't that basically what he did though during the vandal savage episodes?

 

[Blader]

Just saw the episode last night.

That ending. Like are you kidding me Felicity? ITs Oliver and Samantha's son!!!!!!! You have nothing to fucking do with their son. Holy shit the writing on this show is so bad. Guggenheim is seriously the fucking worst.

I do got to kudos to Stephen Amell. That emotion he showed while making the video was stellar. The man has come a long way since Season 1.

Yeah, that was a good moment. Grant Gustin also had a strong scene with Joe and Iris this week.

 

[Septimus Prime]

I like how any discussion this show throws at us amounts to how terrible some of the characters are (used to be Laurel but now Felicity).

Meanwhile, in the Flash thread...

I bet Jay is in the grave.

 

[ChaosZeroX]

isn't that basically what he did though during the vandal savage episodes?

Yep. He pulled her aside less then 24hrs after he found out and she still bitched at him.

Yeah, that was a good moment. Grant Gustin also had a strong scene with Joe and Iris this week.

That scene gave me so many feels. The BGM also made amplified the feel.

 

[Magwik]

I bet Jay is in the grave.

Spoiler

I'm sure one of the million Jays is dead

 

[Kyoufu]

I bet Jay is in the grave.

Jay is in the grave. Jay is also THE grave.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I like how any discussion this show throws at us amounts to how terrible some of the characters are (used to be Laurel but now Felicity).

Meanwhile, in the Flash thread...

I know unsubscribed the Flash thread for a reason. Zero fucks whom who is and what the timelines do to the continuity.

 

[strafer]

Meanwhile, in the Flash thread...

 

[Joni]

Felicity has nothing to do with Oliver and Samantha's son. Absolutely nothing. Its none of her business. The fact that she said that he didn't include her makes no fucking sense. Its not her son at all.

So in your marriage, you think your wife would be fine with you hiding a son? She is a stepparent if they get married so she has everything to do with the kid. Just by getting married, she gains somewhat legal responsibility over the kid. And even ignoring that, it has nothing to do with the kid, but with the existence of the kid. She is right to be upset over this.

isn't that basically what he did though during the vandal savage episodes?

No, he got caught there.

Meanwhile, in the Flash thread...

We're making mincemeat of the ridiculous reveal that doesn't make sense.

 

[fallengorn]

Spoiler

I'm sure one of the million Jays is dead

Cisco is going to use it as a "speed missile" to destroy the Source Wall next season.

 

[Sephzilla]

So in your marriage, you think your wife would be fine with you hiding a son? She is a stepparent if they get married so she has everything to do with the kid. Just by getting married, she gains somewhat legal responsibility over the kid. And even ignoring that, it has nothing to do with the kid, but with the existence of the kid. She is right to be upset over this.


No, he got caught there.


We're making mincemeat of the ridiculous reveal that doesn't make sense.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

Felicity only has a right to be upset over this if she's an extremely self centered egotistical person. She turned a situation that wasn't about her and made it all about her.

 

[Kyoufu]

Remember when Felicity threw a massive episode-long fit because she loved Oliver?

I just don't get her.

 

[iosefe]

i miss the days when their relationship was just to trick Slade

 

[strafer]

I miss the days when Felicity was just a geek fixing Olivers busted harddrives

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Yeah Arrow hasn't been very good thus far in how it's handling it's characters. It seems like they don't learn a thing from season to season and it's annoying. At least Flash has an excuse with time travel, speed force , and the multiverse.

Barry is the annoying person on Flash though which is an extremely bad problem,
Thankfully it isn't near the Arrow character's lows yet.

 

[Sephzilla]

Barry is the annoying person on Flash though which is an extremely bad problem,
Thankfully it isn't near the Arrow character's lows yet.

No way, I think that goes to Iris

 

[Kyoufu]

No way, I think that goes to Iris

Nah, Barry gets people killed, drives lovers away, etc.

I don't dislike Iris this season. Barry needs a slap.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

So in your marriage, you think your wife would be fine with you hiding a son? She is a stepparent if they get married so she has everything to do with the kid. Just by getting married, she gains somewhat legal responsibility over the kid. And even ignoring that, it has nothing to do with the kid, but with the existence of the kid. She is right to be upset over this.

She's pissed at him for not telling her about a child after he was given an ultimatum by the child's mother? Selfish. Pissed at him for not including her on a logical parenting decision about the safety of a child she is not the mother of and didn't even know existed a few days before? Selfish.

 

[Joni]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

Felicity only has a right to be upset over this if she's an extremely self centered egotistical person. She turned a situation that wasn't about her and made it all about her.

So she wouldn't have to take care of the kid if Oliver ever gets custody? If Samantha dies, she can ignore him all she wants? If Oliver knows the kid exists, or will always have an impact on her. It isn't that difficult. She has a right to be upset and refuse to marry the guy that didnt want to talk this through with her. In the end or shows that he still has trust issues with her, again, the woman he is going to marry. In this case both Oliver and Felicity are acting like human beings should, each with their own view that they deserve. And she didnt make the situation about her, that is why she supported Sam and Oliver until William was back for a while.

Oliver has a logical right for his decisions but so does Felicity. She gets to be pissed about him continuing with something he promised he would stop.

 

[ChaosZeroX]

So in your marriage, you think your wife would be fine with you hiding a son? She is a stepparent if they get married so she has everything to do with the kid. Just by getting married, she gains somewhat legal responsibility over the kid. And even ignoring that, it has nothing to do with the kid, but with the existence of the kid. She is right to be upset over this.

They aren't married? As a matter of fact, even if they were married; Felicity has no right to give an opinion about a child that isn't hers. She hasn't even known about William for 24hrs.

Hiding his son from her wasn't OIiver's fault. He was given an ultimatum and even Felicity said she understood why during the episode.

The fact that she got angry with Oliver because she wasn't apart of the decision in sending his son away was the final straw for me. I see that this show will just be revolved around this shit fucking relationship.

You can see a clear difference between The Flash and Arrow as someone else said in this thread I think. Flash break-finale ended on them

Spoiler

revealing Zoom's Identity

and on Arrow they end with that bullshit.

 

[Effect]

Well, for one, not telling someone something =/= lying.

Felicity was totally acting on a double-standard though considering she defended Lance for essentially doing the exact same secret-hiding shit. Felicity was also the only person on the team who seemed actually upset by Oliver hiding this at all. Thea understood. Diggle understood. Vixen understood. Laurel even understood, she was more upset about Oliver cheating way back when than him actually not telling anyone about William. Even Samantha was basically like "don't be mad at Oliver be mad at me".

Someone needs to be all up in Felicity's face like

Felicity is also the person out of the group that has the least likely connection to this as well when you think about it. Thea is Williams's aunt. Diggle is Oliver's best friend now that Tommy is gone and the likeliest person to be the boy's possible godfather if a relationship was more permanent considering Oliver is godfather to Diggle's daughter I believe. They see each other as brothers. So he's up there with Thea. Laurel was the one cheated on and a friend to Samantha at the time.

What I still can't get over though is Felicity in the end. When she complains that Oliver didn't didn't give her a voice or even talk to her about sending William away! I get not being told he exist would be upsetting. I'm not going to take that away from her. What happens to him though is none of her business and she does not need to be informed. It's not like he's coming to live with her and Oliver. Then and only then would it make sense to include her. Sending William away was completely up to Oliver and Samantha, they're the parents, and only them. No one else needed or should have been consulted.

Edit: Legends of Tomorrow and Grave

I'm glad that it seems that

Spoiler

Diggle very likely isn't the one in the grave. Jr. was born it seemed before the "Uprising" took place since that was 15 years ago at the time Legends's latest episode took place. So even if Atom and Sara come back that shouldn't stop him from being born. So if the Uprising doesn't happen things prior to it should still very likely hold meaning Diggle should still be around.

So that's two possibly taken off the list with some certainty. Though I'm still not convinced that Felicity isn't a hallucination. Oliver has had them before.

 

[Joni]

They were planning the wedding, it was weeks away. And I doubt he would have told her before. And yes, Oliver was caught between a rock and a hard place. Considering he Sent the kid away, he picked the wrong long term choice between Felicity and Sam.

Also, this has very little impact on Diggle and M Laurel. Diggle is just his friend, Felicity soon will be his actual family. As for Laurel, the kid wasn't very important to her. More the cheating.

 

[Team Filler]

There is absolutely no defending of Felicity's actions in this last episode. Even if it was a realistic thing for a self-centered fiancé to do, it is absolutely in direct contradiction with her character in the immediately previous episode. I'm thinking anyone who thinks her reactions are reasonable are either predisposedthemselves towards self-centered egotism like that, or are a part of the awful tumblr-shipping crowd whose fandom being catered to is destroying any remaining good in this show.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

Felicity seems like a total bitch in this situation. Plus didn't barry time travel and tell oliver specifically that if he told her she would flip out and leave him?

 

[Sephzilla]

So she wouldn't have to take care of the kid if Oliver ever gets custody? If Samantha dies, she can ignore him all she wants? If Oliver knows the kid exists, or will always have an impact on her. It isn't that difficult. She has a right to be upset and refuse to marry the guy that didnt want to talk this through with her. In the end or shows that he still has trust issues with her, again, the woman he is going to marry. In this case both Oliver and Felicity are acting like human beings should, each with their own view that they deserve. And she didnt make the situation about her, that is why she supported Sam and Oliver until William was back for a while.

Oliver has a logical right for his decisions but so does Felicity. She gets to be pissed about him continuing with something he promised he would stop.

Felicity logic would break down like this

Scenario 1 : "I'm so upset at you Oliver, you kept a secret from me!"

Scenario 2 : "I'm so upset at you Oliver, you broke a promise you made to the mother of your son!"

Oliver chose being able to spend time with his son over letting Felicity in on the secret, and given that he was in a no-win scenario here he chose the better of the two options. Plus, no matter what route he goes, he's back to keep a secret from someone because it's either not tell Felicity about William or not tell Samantha that he told Felicity. I again point out that Diggle seemed to understand Oliver's situation and seemed pretty cool with the choice Oliver made. I quite frankly think his opinion on the situation trumps Felicity's opinion since Diggle is the only other person on the team who knows what it's like to have a kid.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

All 3 of these shows feel like they're being written by the team from One Tree Hill lately. A lot of the dialogue is cringeworthy, and the concentration on relationship issues is overwhelming.

I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for Daredevil to return.

 

[Joni]

Diggle wants Oliver to put the kid in his Life so that would have needed Felicity being on board. Aside from that, isn't he keeping his brother away from andy Jr?

Felicity seems like a total bitch in this situation. Plus didn't barry time travel and tell oliver specifically that if he told her she would flip out and leave him?

with the detail again that she found out that he was acting weird.

 

[Kyoufu]

All 3 of these shows feel like they're being written by the team from One Tree Hill lately. A lot of the dialogue is cringeworthy, and the concentration on relationship issues is overwhelming.

I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for Daredevil to return.

don't talk shit about One Tree Hill

Arrow wishes it was as good as OTH.

 

[Joni]

don't talk shit about One Tree Hill

Arrow wishes it was as good as OTH.

That show did

Spoiler

secret children a lot better. IZombie dude was honest with Patty.

 

[Sephzilla]

Felicity's "its all about me" complex also ended up getting everyone killed by Vandal Savage, just to point that out.

Also, the person in the grave is quite obviously going to be

Spoiler

Quentin Lance. You think him betraying Dahrk isn't going to come back to bite him in the ass?

 

[Kalentan]

There is absolutely no defending of Felicity's actions in this last episode. Even if it was a realistic thing for a self-centered fiancé to do, it is absolutely in direct contradiction with her character in the immediately previous episode. I'm thinking anyone who thinks her reactions are reasonable are either predisposedthemselves towards self-centered egotism like that, or are a part of the awful tumblr-shipping crowd whose fandom being catered to is destroying any remaining good in this show.

This is just so true.

Felicity is without a doubt, the worst thing about the show right now and is dragging it down. That isn't to say there aren't other issues with the show, but she is by far the biggest one.

Showrunner, kill off Felicity, please... just do it. Or just actually make her GROW UP. Cause honestly, she's becoming one of the most immature characters in the show right now.

 

[Effect]

Though I do wonder if they were trying to touch upon the idea that Felicity is ultimately second (maybe even third or fourth (Thea being just as important for different reasons) but certainly not #1) in Oliver's mind, always will be and her realizing it, but the writers didn't want to go out and say it. When given the choice he put his child first. First in order to get to know him. The second time when it came to what was best for him growing up. Two decisions he made that ultimately were about his son first and foremost. Felicity clearly was not a factor in his decision making outside of the first one and there was reason when he decided not to tell her. The second decision didn't involve her at all so she should never have entered his mind.

I bring this up is that I would imagine there would be issues to varying degrees in relationships when there is a child from a previous relationship that is always there or introduced. The parent of said child would naturally, you'd hope, always put that child first no matter what. Parents that produced that child would feel that way around. Someone entering a relationship where that child exist would have to accept that. Accept that they'll be second and decisions would be made without their input.

Perhaps this is partly showing I think that Felicity, at least at the end, can't get behind that. At least not at the moment. Which I find is a bit weird because she knew about his past and what kind of person he was like when it came to women. She's even commented about the number of women in his life. The possibility that there might be a kid out there should have at least came to mind. It certainly did with Captain Lance.

Or maybe this is thinking to much into what the Arrow writers might have intended.

 

[Joni]

The main issue will be that the kid could still end up with them, Sam is someone easy to kill for the grave.

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

Compare how Felicity and Laurel both handled the news of William. Laurel was actually with Oliver when he cheated on her that resulted in William being conceived and she took it like an absolute champ, sympathizing with Samantha and not even shouting at Oliver. Felicity finds out and dumps Oliver with no hesitation (not to mention that she also dumped Oliver in the original timeline when Ollie barely knew for about a day himself so I doubt the time of which it was kept from her has anything to do with it).

Felicity's always had a type of habit of making everything about her, it honestly seems like she's more pissed that there's someone else important in Oliver's life other than herself. Remember when she actually seemed jealous over Nyssa and Oliver getting married despite the obvious fact Nyssa is gay as hell and the horrifying fact her father had no problems with forcing her into a marriage with a man? Remember when she was fine with letting Thea die just as long as it kept Oliver from joining the League? Or when in the season 3 finale she literally went "BUT OLIVER" when Ray told her that he couldn't use the suit to save Oliver because he was literally working on the cure to save the whole city.

 

[Effect]

The fact they had her say the same thing last episode that she said back in the crossover was interesting. At least I believe it was the same thing. Leads me to be believe that nothing short of Oliver running to tell or her call her the second he found out likely would have been okay with her. Even then I question that.

 

[Wozzly]

This is giving me Arrow S2 OT vibes. That was a Darhk time.

I get why Felicity is hurt. She found out Thea knew, Barry knew, Malcolm knew yet he couldn't tell Felicity? I just don't get why he couldn't tell her. What was she going to do? Wheel herself over to Central City and lay down the law to Samantha? Nothing bad happened with Barry and Thea knowing so why keep it from his wife? Am I missing something? Did Oliver know she'd take it all wrong so he kept it from her? I'm trying to understand the logic.

Should she have walked out. Hell no that was some comical BS.

 

[Septimus Prime]

This is giving me Arrow S2 OT vibes. That was a Darhk time.

I get why Felicity is hurt. She found out Thea knew, Barry knew, Malcolm knew yet he couldn't tell Felicity? I just don't get why he couldn't tell her. What was she going to do? Wheel herself over to Central City and lay down the law to Samantha? Nothing bad happened with Barry and Thea knowing so why keep it from his wife? Am I missing something? Did Oliver know she'd take it all wrong so he kept it from her? I'm trying to understand the logic.

Should she have walked out. Hell no that was some comical BS.

Well, there's the fact that last time he told her, she broke up with him, and everyone got nuked.

 

[Sephzilla]

This is giving me Arrow S2 OT vibes. That was a Darhk time.

I get why Felicity is hurt. She found out Thea knew, Barry knew, Malcolm knew yet he couldn't tell Felicity? I just don't get why he couldn't tell her. What was she going to do? Wheel herself over to Central City and lay down the law to Samantha? Nothing bad happened with Barry and Thea knowing so why keep it from his wife? Am I missing something? Did Oliver know she'd take it all wrong so he kept it from her? I'm trying to understand the logic.

Should she have walked out. Hell no that was some comical BS.

Felicity's "its all about me" complex also ended up getting everyone killed by Vandal Savage, just to point that out.

.

 

[Wozzly]

Well, there's the fact that last time he told her, she broke up with him, and everyone got nuked.

Oh yeah forgot about that. Put me in with TeamOliver then. He's just going from experience.

Tbh I just remember the escaping donkey from that crossover.

EDIT: Never Forget!

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

This is giving me Arrow S2 OT vibes. That was a Darhk time.

I get why Felicity is hurt. She found out Thea knew, Barry knew, Malcolm knew yet he couldn't tell Felicity? I just don't get why he couldn't tell her. What was she going to do? Wheel herself over to Central City and lay down the law to Samantha? Nothing bad happened with Barry and Thea knowing so why keep it from his wife? Am I missing something? Did Oliver know she'd take it all wrong so he kept it from her? I'm trying to understand the logic.

Should she have walked out. Hell no that was some comical BS.

I'm pretty sure Barry told Oliver in the fixed timeline not to tell Felicity since the two of them broke up when Oliver originally told Felicity about William.

Edit: Aaaaand beaten.

 

[Joni]

Compare how Felicity and Laurel both handled the news of William. Laurel was actually with Oliver when he cheated on her that resulted in William being conceived and she took it like an absolute champ, sympathizing with Samantha and not even shouting at Oliver. Felicity finds out and dumps Oliver with no hesitation (not to mention that she also dumped Oliver in the original timeline when Ollie barely knew for about a day himself so I doubt the time of which it was kept from her has anything to do with it).

That comparison isn't that strong. What did Laurel discover? That Oliver - a guy she isn't dating now, just a regular friend - cheated on her ten years ago. Something he was known for. He cheated on her with her sister. Samantha was one in a long list of conquests. She would be mad at the guy for something he isn't anymore. He hasn't really cheated on anyone in eight years. Felicity isn't mad for what happened ten years ago, she'd gladly raise the kid or get to know the girl. She is friends with Laurel and Sara, she'd probably hang out with all his exes if they showed up after quipping about it. She is mad for something that happened now. Something for which everyone - us included - raged at Oliver for just last year. And he promised it would change, and they'd remain the same when they returned to Star City. So yes, Laurel isn't as mad at Oliver. At who would she be mad? That guy no longer exists.

 

[Sephzilla]

That comparison isn't that strong. What did Laurel discover? That Oliver - a guy she isn't dating now, just a regular friend - cheated on her ten years ago. Something he was known for. He cheated on her with her sister. Samantha was one in a long list of conquests. She would be mad at the guy for something he isn't anymore. He hasn't really cheated on anyone in eight years. Felicity isn't mad for what happened ten years ago, she'd gladly raise the kid or get to know the girl. She is friends with Laurel and Sara, she'd probably hang out with all his exes if they showed up after quipping about it. She is mad for something that happened now. Something for which everyone - us included - raged at Oliver for just last year. And he promised it would change, and they'd remain the same when they returned to Star City. So yes, Laurel isn't as mad at Oliver. At who would she be mad? That guy no longer exists.

Him keeping the secret from Felicity is pretty irrelevant considering a time traveling Barry Allen told Oliver that Felicity dumped him 24 hours after Oliver himself found out about William. Oliver keeping the secret seems less the reason Felicity would leave him and it seems more like Felicity would leave him because Oliver now can't dedicate every waking moment to her. So Oliver ultimately was forced to choose between being honest with his fiance who would probably leave him regardless versus being able to see his son.

Oliver made the right choice and Felicity is being selfish and petty.

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

That comparison isn't that strong. What did Laurel discover? That Oliver - a guy she isn't dating now, just a regular friend - cheated on her ten years ago. Something he was known for. He cheated on her with her sister. Samantha was one in a long list of conquests. She would be mad at the guy for something he isn't anymore. Felicity isn't mad for what happened ten years ago, she'd gladly raise the kid or get to know the girl. She is friends with Laurel and Sara, she'd probably hang out with all his exes if they showed up after quipping about it. She is mad for something that happened now. Something for which everyone - us included - raged at Oliver for just last year. And he promised it would change, and they'd remain the same when they returned to Star City. So yes, Laurel isn't as mad at Oliver. At who would she be mad? That guy no longer exists.

I still think the point that your boyfriend knocked someone up while dating you would still sting that many years later. Oliver being a different person doesn't really change the fact he cheated Laurel like shit and still does sometimes. Also Felicity has shown herself to be rather jealous in a way of some of the women involved in Oliver's life, as I pointed out, she seemed to actually take genuine offense to the fact Oliver married Nyssa despite the clear signs it was a marriage neither wanted to happen. Felicity also broke up with Oliver barely a day after he himself found out because how dare Oliver take more than a few hours to inform her.

And there was Felicity throwing Sara under the bus in season 3 by basically implying that her demons were too strong for her to ever be a proper hero despite the fact Sara's season 2 character arc seemed to be the fact she was trying to not let her demons get the best of her and become an actual hero. But if you ask me that was just a horrifically badly written scene and not something to take as part of Felicity's character.