Support NeoGAF

[chickdigger802]

yeah, i'd wager that Ryse might have more indepth combat than this... but i'm terrible at bets.

spoilers if you must but are there any more new enemy types later? Anybody tougher than the axe bombers and the captain dudes?

 

[noomi]

except most of the time you swing over, miss the boat, try climbing up, but enemy stabs you through the boat, you fall down. when you eventually get up, you try countering attacks but your allies bump into you and you trip and fall.


AC series really needs a combat refresh lol.

I assume this is from the PC? I dont remember seeing pistol smoke effects like this on the ps4, wow... looks great

 

[chickdigger802]

you know, i rarely use pistol in combat because fromw hat i can tell you can't reload your guns until all your guns are empty? Kinda lame.

 

[Lostconfused]

It's not really that close to being comparable to Batman's combat. The only thing that's automated in that are the basic punches, every other move out of his 15 move arsenal you have to do yourself while juggling enemy positioning (and your own) and keeping an eye open at all times since at least 1 enemy is likely going to attack while you do any other move, they don't stand around like Assassin's Creed's enemies. There's also far more enemy variations that force strategy changes than in AC.

You also don't have to use any of those 15 moves and in practical terms its easier if you don't and yes all of those moves are automated as well. The only difference is that they have additional button shortcuts to activate those abilities instead of selecting them from a weapon wheel and then using Y to use them in a context specific manner.

I haven't played Arkham Origins yet but in City there are only two enemy types you have to pay attention to. One is the regular enemy who you simply punch and then a tougher enemy that you have to stun first before proceeding to mash the punch button a lot.

The only problem with position is that that there are no enemies nearby to punch. That doesn't happen as in fact the game is generous enough to have them stand around and wait until you are done with hitting one goon before having another one run within the reach of Batman's fist. Position and awareness of your surroundings is actually a lot more important in Assassin's Creed as the enemies aren't nearly as predictable and don't have blindingly obvious tells like the ones in Arkham City and aren't nearly polite enough to wait for your animations to finish.

In retrospect I have to say a lot of what you seem to describe as faults are far more apparent and present in Arkham City.

you know, i rarely use pistol in combat because fromw hat i can tell you can't reload your guns until all your guns are empty? Kinda lame.

Left shoulder button.

 

[chickdigger802]

at work, but can you turn off enemy counter prompts?

 

[Derrick01]

You also don't have to use any of those 15 moves and in practical terms its easier if you don't and yes all of those moves are automated as well. The only difference is that they have additional button shortcuts to activate those abilities instead of selecting them from a weapon wheel and then using Y to use them in a context specific manner.

I haven't played Arkham Origins yet but in City there are only two enemy types you have to pay attention to. One is the regular enemy who you simply punch and then a tougher enemy that you have to stun first before proceeding to mash the punch button a lot.

The only problem with position is that that there are no enemies nearby to punch. That doesn't happen as in fact the game is generous enough to have them stand around and wait until you are done with hitting one goon before having another one run within the reach of Batman's fist. Position and awareness of your surroundings is actually a lot more important in Assassin's Creed as the enemies aren't nearly as predictable and don't have blindingly obvious tells like the ones in Arkham City and aren't nearly polite enough to wait for your animations to finish.

In retrospect I have to say a lot of what you seem to describe as faults are far more apparent and present in Arkham City.

Enemies don't stand around in the batman games though, especially in Origins where an enemy is already starting his attack animation once your last counter is finished. Finishing moves can't be interrupted but basic attacks, cape stuns and ground takedowns can and you need to judge how much time you have to do them before an enemy can run up and interrupt them. In this game enemies stand around while I'm chain killing (I.E pressing the stick towards an enemy) and after every 3rd or 4th chain kill 1 will attack in which case you counter it and keep the process going. There's no other moves to really use in combat besides a pistol shot and unlike Batman there's no motivation to use anything else even if there were more abilities.

 

[Lostconfused]

Enemies don't stand around in the batman games though, especially in Origins where an enemy is already starting his attack animation once your last counter is finished. Finishing moves can't be interrupted but basic attacks, cape stuns and ground takedowns can and you need to judge how much time you have to do them before an enemy can run up and interrupt them. In this game enemies stand around while I'm chain killing (I.E pressing the stick towards an enemy) and after every 3rd or 4th chain kill 1 will attack in which case you counter it and keep the process going. There's no other moves to really use in combat besides a pistol shot and unlike Batman there's no motivation to use anything else even if there were more abilities.

So then effectively enemies standing around makes no difference because they don't interrupt you during the critical moments when you are vulnerable. Basic attacks can be interrupted with a counter at almost any time so you are practically never in a vulnerable position. It only changes up the rhythm of the combat that you need to mix in a counter between one or two attacks, or possibly evade if you like that kind of thing.

Yes you have a few more options in Batman games, majority of which function in pretty much the same manner, but there is no incentive to use them either. All combat situations can be resolved with four moves: punch, counter, takedown, and evade for the enemies that you can't freely counter. The rest of the moves can be used if you are feeling bored and want to change things up a bit or want to engage in the meta game of earning a higher score and more XP per encounter but there is no strong motivation to use them.

 

[Derrick01]

So then effectively enemies standing around makes no difference because they don't interrupt you during the critical moments when you are vulnerable. Basic attacks can be interrupted with a counter at almost any time so you are practically never in a vulnerable position. It only changes up the rhythm of the combat that you need to mix in a counter between one or two attacks, or possibly evade if you like that kind of thing.

Yes you have a few more options in Batman games, majority of which function in pretty much the same manner, but there is no incentive to use them either. All combat situations can be resolved with four moves: punch, counter, takedown, and evade for the enemies that you can't freely counter. The rest of the moves can be used if you are feeling bored and want to change things up a bit or want to engage in the meta game of earning a higher score and more XP per encounter but there is no strong motivation to use them.

The incentive is it's fun to do them and get through a large combat scenario without getting hit. That's the incentive Assassin's Creed is missing and the entire point of this conversation really.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

I assume this is from the PC? I dont remember seeing pistol smoke effects like this on the ps4, wow... looks great

PS4- you can see by the button prompts.

 

[Lostconfused]

The incentive is it's fun to do them and get through a large combat scenario without getting hit. That's the incentive Assassin's Creed is missing and the entire point of this conversation really.

That incentive is there in Assassin's Creed as well and if that's the point of this conversation for you then you certainly chose to focus on the wrong aspect of the game mechanics to differentiate between the two. Neither game punishes you more severely for getting hit than the other.

 

[Derrick01]

That incentive is there in Assassin's Creed as well and if that's the point of this conversation for you then you certainly chose to focus on the wrong aspect of the game mechanics to differentiate between the two. Neither game punishes you more severely for getting hit than the other.

No there is no incentive in AC because it's all automated. He doesn't have any abilities and you either mash attack until they die or you counter then chain kill everyone else. If there's a big enemy you press x first then mash attack to kill him. There's no set of abilities to use and everything is automated. You can try to keep finding some sort of hidden depth here like there is in Batman but you're not going to find it.

 

[Lostconfused]

No there is no incentive in AC because it's all automated. He doesn't have any abilities and you either mash attack until they die or you counter then chain kill everyone else. If there's a big enemy you press x first then mash attack to kill him.

One again I have to ask if you realize that all of this holds true for Arkham games as well. Besides the semantic differences of big and the button X.

 

[Derrick01]

One again I have to ask if you realize that all of this holds true for Arkham games as well. Besides the semantic differences of big and the button X.

And I have to ask once again if you realize there are a multitude of abilities Batman can use to spice the combat up which the AC guys don't have available to use. So you have very few options available besides countering and chain killing the majority of enemies.

 

[keltickennedy]

not my clip, but this is crazy

Hey, that's me!!

If anyone is interested, I will steam some gameplay tonight. Fooling around with other combat moves and traversal stuff. I am still finding cool new things. Also if people don't have the game yet and wanted to see something in particular, that would be fine too.

Also, speaking of the comparisons to the combat in Batman......I'm sorry but Batman is on a totally different level. Arkham City to this day, personally my favorite fighting system that no game has been able to top so far.<--MY OPINION. Origins was close, but dropped the ball with some of the gadgets and how they can be used in combat.

 

[Lostconfused]

And I have to ask once again if you realize there are a multitude of abilities Batman can use to spice the combat up which the AC guys don't have available to use. So you have very few options available besides countering and chain killing the majority of enemies.

Yes and I agreed with that point. After which I proceeded to argue that in both games the player has to actively seek out those mechanics and there is no significant incentive to engage with them from either one. Of course Batman is somewhat better in that regard as it at least has difficulty options and increased challenges in new game modes. While Assassin's Creed doesn't increase the challenge nearly as often to force the player to explore the options that are present within the game.

 

[jim2point0]

I never seem to be able to pull off anything with that sort of precision. Especially the gun firing. They never seem to hit who I want to hit in the heat of battle. Nor do they seem to have any effect.

The clunky animations don't help. Batman certainly has that in its favor. Combat is so smooth there.

 

[Derrick01]

Yes and I agreed with that point. After which I proceeded to argue that in both games the player has to actively seek out those mechanics

Here is the part that is causing this back and forth between us. "Both" games means both have hidden depth and optional mechanics to use to add variety to the combat. Assassin's Creed does not have that. I'd use it if it did like I use it in Batman because just punching and countering would get old extremely fast, just like it does in Assassin's Creed.

 

[tokyo slim]

Looks like a pretty straightforward boarding to me.

I usually waste time on the swivel guns before I board though.

 

[Lostconfused]

Here is the part that is causing this back and forth between us. "Both" games means both have hidden depth and optional mechanics to use to add variety to the combat. Assassin's Creed does not have that. I'd use it if it did like I use it in Batman because just punching and countering would get old extremely fast, just like it does in Assassin's Creed.

I agree that is the exact reason. The problem is you haven't made any arguments as to why or how Assassin's Creed lacks depth. You choosing not to engage with the game does not mean there isn't any there in the first place.

Looks like a pretty straightforward boarding to me.

I usually waste time on the swivel guns before I board though.

It's not really a waste of time when you have nothing else to do but wait for the ships to drift closer to each other.

 

[Derrick01]

I agree that is the exact reason. The problem is you haven't made any arguments as to why or how Assassin's Creed lacks depth. You choosing not to engage with the game does not mean there isn't any there in the first place.

I've explained it like 5 times on this last page. It doesn't have options available besides attacking and countering/chain killing. You have a pistol you can quick kill with and that's about it. There's no depth in killing a guy by countering him then just pressing the stick towards everyone else and auto killing them.

 

[Lostconfused]

I've explained it like 5 times on this last page. It doesn't have options available besides attacking and countering/chain killing. You have a pistol you can quick kill with and that's about it.

But it does have other options, at least 3 did. Black Flag is rather sparse with handing out more weapons to you for some reason. Brotherhood had even more options until they got rid of them in revelations, and then again in 3. No idea why they did that.

 

[tokyo slim]

It's not really a waste of time when you have nothing else to do but wait for the ships to drift closer to each other.

I tend to park pretty close.

 

[keltickennedy]

Yes and I agreed with that point. After which I proceeded to argue that in both games the player has to actively seek out those mechanics and there is no significant incentive to engage with them from either one. Of course Batman is somewhat better in that regard as it at least has difficulty options and increased challenges in new game modes. While Assassin's Creed doesn't increase the challenge nearly as often to force the player to explore the options that are present within the game.

So much this^. While I love the rework they did with the combat in AC3 and how it opened up the opportunity to be way more aggressive than in previous games, they can still greatly expand on it. The variety of weapons and tools are simply giving the player variations on what animations to see. When it fact they could instead be used to tackle specific enemies. For example, only being able to attack brutes with a sword, or first having to stun them with a pistol shot to get through their armor, or using the rope dart to pull the armor off. The hidden blades would have to be used for the scouts making you able to attack faster.

Unfortunately, I'm sure Ubisoft has thought about this but with the AC franchises mass appeal, a more in depth combat system could be bad for them. Sounds strange i know. Also having yearly releases aren't helping matters too. After getting feedback, good or bad on the games mechanics the sequel is already a year or two into development. A lot of those mechanics may already be recycled and locked in and the only thing they can do is slight tweaking. Case and point the "improved stealth" in AC4. *cough....we just added more stalking areas and made the enemies far sighted.* Still waiting for that crouch button Ubi...

 

[Edwards_Omatic]

Is it me, or are follow people and eavesdrop missions back tenfold in Ass Flag?
With some, it's not even as if they're easy and quick, some go on for ages and the dudes are walking through heavily guarded, restricted areas with no hiding spots.
*Sigh* Im so bloody sick of them.

That might be my only gripe though, i'm absolutely loving this game in spite of that.

 

[keltickennedy]

Is it me, or are follow people and eavesdrop missions back tenfold in Ass Flag?
With some, it's not even as if they're easy and quick, some go on for ages and the dudes are walking through heavily guarded, restricted areas with no hiding spots.
*Sigh* Im so bloody sick of them.

That might be my only gripe though, i'm absolutely loving this game in spite of that.

Like I said, they probably didn't find out that a lot of people hated those missions in previous games till halfway through development.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Is it just me, or does the world feel like it has less of an identity than previous AssCreed games? Maybe it's because they put a big focus on the ocean this time, but it just feels like it's lacking that "sense of place" that the previous games had done so well.

I'm still only about 5 hours into the game, and I'm definitely enjoying it, but I can't shake this feeling of emptiness in regards to the setting.

 

[Lostconfused]

Unfortunately, I'm sure Ubisoft has thought about this but with the AC franchises mass appeal, a more in depth combat system could be bad for them. Sounds strange i know.

I was barely enjoying the combat in 3 until I purposefully kept the level 3 notoriety so that the game would finally throw a decent number of enemies at you and jaggers would finally start showing up. Doing the same in Black Flag but the naval combat seems to be more limited by what upgrades you bought for the ship.

Also, speaking of the comparisons to the combat in Batman......I'm sorry but Batman is on a totally different level. Arkham City to this day, personally my favorite fighting system that no game has been able to top so far.<--MY OPINION. Origins was close, but dropped the ball with some of the gadgets and how they can be used in combat.

I don't disagree with this. I simply think Derrick is being somewhat unfairly harsh with some of his criticism not being entirely true.

 

[Bboy AJ]

Is it just me, or does the world feel like it has less of an identity than previous AssCreed games? Maybe it's because they put a big focus on the ocean this time, but it just feels like it's lacking that "sense of place" that the previous games had done so well.

I'm still only about 5 hours into the game, and I'm definitely enjoying it, but I can't shake this feeling of emptiness in regards to the setting.

That's what makes it good. Open seas, adventure, exploring.

 

[BigWeather]

Playing on the PS4 and, while loving the graphics and resolution, the video seems to flicker quite a bit when the camera is panned, like a light white strobe. Anyone else seen this?

 

[The English Conquistador]

It was a janky mess in the previous 4 games as well. Jump a small gap between buildings, woops Altair/Ezio hits his shin on the edge of the roof and then stumbles for a couple of seconds every god damn time.

Sure, it was never perfectly smooth in motion. But they first four were nowhere near as janky and jittery as the past two games. Going back to Revelations for a few mins, the difference was night and day. Go back to it and play a little bit of it. Jump around the city, use the book etc. You'd see what I'm talking about then.

 

[Kazerei]

Is it me, or are follow people and eavesdrop missions back tenfold in Ass Flag?
With some, it's not even as if they're easy and quick, some go on for ages and the dudes are walking through heavily guarded, restricted areas with no hiding spots.
*Sigh* Im so bloody sick of them.

That might be my only gripe though, i'm absolutely loving this game in spite of that.

It's not just you. The tailing missions are usually designed with one optimal route in mind, that has neatly placed hiding spots. You just have to figure out what the designer wants you to do :\

 

[cb1115]

Just finished it.

Spoiler

So Haytham is going to be the protagonist in ACV, right?

 

[Permanently A]

I really, really dislike the inability to crouch. It does not feel like a stealth game at all. Combat isn't great either.

 

[Gen.Grievous]

I had a funny boarding experience. Disabled two brigs parallel to each other and when I tried to board the closest one the game actually chose the furthest one so me mateys pulled all three ships against each other. Turned into a massive fight across three ships all the while these ships were bumping and grinding all over the place. It was glorious.

 

[Blue Ninja]

I had a funny boarding experience. Disabled two brigs parallel to each other and when I tried to board the closest one the game actually chose the furthest one so me mateys pulled all three ships against each other. Turned into a massive fight across three ships all the while these ships were bumping and grinding all over the place. It was glorious.

Had that happen too. One ship actually started going up in the air, it was hilarious.

 

[iNvid02]

Just finished it.

Spoiler

So Haytham is going to be the protagonist in ACV, right?

im guessing you skipped AC3 lol?

 

[chickdigger802]

It's not just you. The tailing missions are usually designed with one optimal route in mind, that has neatly placed hiding spots. You just have to figure out what the designer wants you to do :

Do your job and 1star them!!!!


And it's a bit hard to count old AC games to having combat variety when it's just the same stuff with different weapon animations.

More tools need to be usable in combat. Counters shouldn't be 1 hit kills.

Batman is mainstream so AC has no excuse.

 

[cb1115]

im guessing you skipped AC3 lol?

No, I played AC3.

 

[iNvid02]

the combat is never going to become especially deep but yeah adding some batman style tools/weapons to the RB/LB etc would be a good start,
something like the smoke bomb and throwing knives to act as a stun when say, multiple enemies try to attack you together.

No, I played AC3.

Spoiler

well we got to see enough of haytham in there, and they said in an AMA on reddit they are done with this kenway saga. and coupled with where the present day story is at, they have another chance for a fresh slate start.

Spoiler

…we planned the Edward, Haytham, Connor saga more than 2 years ago, long before any of you had heard Connor’s name or learned his backstory. We had no idea how he (or Haytham) would be received, but we had our own long story to tell, and we embraced it. And it was our hope that — taken together — this saga would represent the story of a family… a migration, a mixing of cultures, and a dashing of ideals… Connor played his part, Haytham played his, and now Edward has had his say too.

 

[MilkBeard]

I do agree with those that say the combat in AC is somewhat shallow. I mean it's fun, but let's just say that I'm glad straight up fighting is not the focus because it would get old fast. Thankfully, I play AC games for the exploration and generally the variety in things you can do. Combat in AC is just another thing that adds variety to the mix, although if you do it for a long time the flaws start to show.

It would be cool if Ubi tweaks the combat further so it has more depth/skill required. They started to do that a little bit with the Ax wielding enemies, because you can't simply bock/counter them like everyone else. You have to knock them off balance and attack or shoot. I'd like to see more stuff like that added.

 

[cb1115]

Spoiler

well we got to see enough of haytham in there, and they said in an AMA on reddit they are done with this kenway saga. and coupled with where the present day story is at, they have another chance for a fresh slate start.

OK, didn't see that. That's good though.

 

[chickdigger802]

Templar armor has no hood. A given but still a bit disappoint.

 

[captainnapalm]

Getting money and resources in this game is a serious grind. I'd say too much. It's not really fairly balanced. I decided to just focus on taking down ships to get my own ship upgraded so I don't have to be careful wherever I go, and it's taking forever. Endless boarding and hoping you spot a ship that has metal.

I wish there was a way to keep making steady income like you had with real estate in the Ezio trilogy. That worked because you could do some hard work early on and then reap the rewards as you carried on playing the game. Now you constantly have to farm.

 

[MilkBeard]

Getting money and resources in this game is a serious grind. I'd say too much. It's not really fairly balanced. I decided to just focus on taking down ships to get my own ship upgraded so I don't have to be careful wherever I go, and it's taking forever. Endless boarding and hoping you spot a ship that has metal.

I wish there was a way to keep making steady income like you had with real estate in the Ezio trilogy. That worked because you could do some hard work early on and then reap the rewards as you carried on playing the game. Now you constantly have to farm.

It's not that bad if you spread it out over doing lots of things. Like you go and do assassin contracts that get you 1000-1500 R. And finding chests. Then fight some boats. It adds up. It is scarce though. Metal is pretty scarce, but when you find some, it seems to be in a pretty good sized amount.

 

[captainnapalm]

It's not that bad if you spread it out over doing lots of things. Like you go and do assassin contracts that get you 1000-1500 R. And finding chests. Then fight some boats. It adds up. It is scarce though. Metal is pretty scarce, but when you find some, it seems to be in a pretty good sized amount.

I haven't done the assassin contracts yet. Didn't know they gave you cash.

But in terms of resources all you can do is take down ships. Probably wasn't a good idea to try and do it all at once.

 

[CrichtonKicks]

But in terms of resources all you can do is take down ships. Probably wasn't a good idea to try and do it all at once.

You can do the warehouse missions too but taking big ships is definitely more efficient.

 

[foxtrot3d]

So I beat the game, as usual the story is hot shit that makes no god damn sense, however I did enjoy how the future plot line was basically just a parody of Ubisoft and the series as a whole. On the other hand, the pirate gameplay is so damn good nothing feels better than just sailing around in your ship as you men sing a sea shanty. I especially loved how you could have different color sails, I had Crimson sails the whole game it looks so balla.

 

[Odrion]

So for PS4/Dualshock 4 PC users, anyone else getting finger strain from having to hold the R2 trigger all the time? Is it just me?

 

[BigDug13]

So for PS4/Dualshock 4 PC users, anyone else getting finger strain from having to hold the R2 trigger all the time? Is it just me?

Not really. The trigger doesn't take much force to keep held.

I just marathoned every bit of Kingston to 100% with mostly R2 held down and I was ok.

 

[GillianSeed79]

Anyone find it weird that the code for the exclusive PS4 content is literally printed on the left inside part of the game case? I completely didn't realize the code was there until Vinny on Giant Bomb was talking about it on the Bombcast. I guess it's because I got the Walmart edition that has the exclusive Walmart content. I just assumed the code in the pamphlet unlocked all the content. I should have actually read the other exclusive content pamphlet that points you to the inside of the actual game case.

Anyway, is the community stuff like royal convoys and white whale locations random? In the first few hours I found like three white whale locations, but I didn't have enough hull armor on my rowboat to fight them without getting killed. I haven't seen anymore in a long time. Then there's this blue convoy fleet marker on my map, but when I go there there's nothing and there's not a time limit like the other fleet/whale locations.