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[Karsticles]

I'd prefer to thnk of the various realms as the Great One's dreams, "dead but dreaming" and so forth



Well we know Yharnam probably exists in the real world (though arguably given his phrasing Yharnam could be some kind of oneric realm). We also know the PC gets infused with some Yharnam blood - if you accept the real/dream dichotomy then we know nothing about that blood, the Old Ones could be entirely a dream fabrication and as such the blood could be anything. Similarly all we know is that you signed a "real" contract, its your presumption that its the hunters contract. For all we know it could be medical insurance. Your post does nothing to prove the real/dream theory is "untenable" because, well, it uses information from the "Dream" (which in the real/dream theory is all unreliable) to support it. In essence the "real/dream" theory cant be proven wrong as it were because theres so very little "real" evidence to work with.

Though, apart from not personally liking the "real/dream" theory, its ultimately academic, if nothing that occurs post transfusion is real all that does is change the framing of the lore not the lore itself. We're still left with the same questions more or less.

Except the Doll exists after you awake in the real world in the bad ending. That proves it isn't just a dream.

 

[Darryl M R]

The veil might keep hunters from seeing things as well. That is why insight is necessary.

Basically, regular people see nothing.
Hunters only see with insight.

Then the veil breaks, and hunters can all see.

None of the text for the NPCs changes after the veil breaks. No one says "holy shit that monster on the side of the cathedral!" I think this would be expected if the veil hid things from humans. If anyone knows of an exception, let me know.

----

Also, Rom is shown to be the result of Old Ones gracing someone with power.

I agree with your first part, no NPC even mentions how there are crazy spiders everywhere even when the veil breaks.

And is Rom the result of being graced? He is vacuous, in other words mindless. Maybe he gained so much insight and lost his mind through a process to make him more Old Ones-like or to expose them, but his results backfired.

 

[Uthred]

Is there any vaguely neutral info on the Vilebloods? Alfred says that someone from Brygenwerth took "forbidden" blood back to Cainhurst and that they were a threat to the healing church, but he's clearly biased. Though the name Vileblood certainly doesnt imply anything good

 

[todd360]

Um. Just wanted to throw in my intial impression of the hunters dream. I didn't take it to mean dream in the literal sense. I thought it meant that this space is a dream made reality for hunters. A place where they can rest and recuperate without fear.

This is all so confusing. I feel like the dark souls lore made much more sense as people were putting the pieces together. We need some more info. Something concrete.

 

[HeelPower]

I would say he's probably a Great One, just one we don't see or face.

I hope this isn't too stupid ,but do we exactly know what is a Great One ? A beast or something else ?

Yup, that was it.

It makes me think Rom isn't a Great One that was born or came from the cosmos, he was created.

I think this is plausible too.Perhaps Rom was someone that ascended.Maybe Micolash is trying to do the same.

Possibly the BB's universe version of Azathoth?

hmm not familiar with Azathoth.Care to explain ?

 

[GorillaJu]

Is there any vaguely neutral info on the Vilebloods? Alfred says that someone from Brygenwerth took "forbidden" blood back to Cainhurst and that they were a threat to the healing church, but he's clearly biased. Though the name Vileblood certainly doesnt imply anything good

Presumably there are different types of blood. Perhaps they were kept in the holy chalices. Either way, the church saw the effects of one of those blood types when imbibed, and forbid it from being used. Some people, not trusting the church or feeling betrayed that they were keeping powerful blood from them, made off with some (all?) of it and separated. They drank the blood and became Vilebloods. The church created a separate sect, led by Logarius, to hunt the Vilebloods using large wheels that would shred their bodies to pulp so they couldn't reform and come back to life.

I think different bloods came from different Great Ones, and Ebrietas's blood is where the Vilebloods came from—this is because when you defeat Ebrietas, you can resurrect Queen Annalise using her bloody remains at the petrified statue she is found sleeping in front of.

 

[Kinsei]

Um. Just wanted to throw in my intial impression of the hunters dream. I didn't take it to mean dream in the literal sense. I thought it meant that this space is a dream made reality for hunters. A place where they can rest and recuperate without fear.

This is all so confusing. I feel like the dark souls lore made much more sense as people were putting the pieces together. We need some more info. Something concrete.

I think the same.

I love how confusing this plot is. At the end of it all I hope the Old Ones remain a mystery.

 

[Karsticles]

I agree with your first part, no NPC even mentions how there are crazy spiders everywhere even when the veil breaks.

And is Rom the result of being graced? He is vacuous, in other words mindless. Maybe he gained so much insight and lost his mind through a process to make him more Old Ones-like or to expose them, but his results backfired.

I am terrible with names, but the boss with the cage head says something like "Bless us with sight, as you did for the vacuous Rom". I interpret this to mean that Rom was once a mortal man, a member of Bergenwyrth. He got close enough to the Old Ones that he was "blessed" with sight, but was also made into an instrument as the veil creator. The cage head wants to be blessed like Rom was.

Is there any vaguely neutral info on the Vilebloods? Alfred says that someone from Brygenwerth took "forbidden" blood back to Cainhurst and that they were a threat to the healing church, but he's clearly biased. Though the name Vileblood certainly doesnt imply anything good

Alfred is biased, but never dishonest, it seems. He is the one who wants to slay Logarius, after all.

I think that the Vilebloods were basically blood addicts that could handle the madness. Then again, there is only one, and she doesn't really talk much.

 

[zennyzz]

Is there any vaguely neutral info on the Vilebloods? Alfred says that someone from Brygenwerth took "forbidden" blood back to Cainhurst and that they were a threat to the healing church, but he's clearly biased. Though the name Vileblood certainly doesnt imply anything good

From Their gear and Alfred's words. It comes off that the Vilebloods were once Aristocracy separate from, but usually dealing with Yharnam.

They were also hunters. Specifically they were hunters who enjoyed killing beasts but never taking their blood.

They had a falling out with the Healing Church, likely due to the situation of them taking a particular type of blood.

There's nothing 'inherently' worse about them than the other factions other than them supposedly really liking fighting.

 

[HeelPower]

So couple of questions :

Are these portraits supposed to be of cainhurst family ?

What's the deal with Arianna ? Why does she possess an umbilical cord ? What exactly is the creature she gave birth to ?(I assume that's what happened)Her creature resembles one of these upper cathedral creatures ,but its smaller and red as opposed to gray

Is there a way to save the girl ? One of the most disturbing moments was finding her dead and the freakish troll next to her actually muttered some words "SO COLD TO YOUR SISTER" Totally horrifying that the monsters can speak like that.

 

[zennyzz]

So couple of questions :

Are these portraits supposed to be of cainhurst family ?

What's the deal with Arianna ? Why does she possess an umbilical cord ? What exactly is the creature she gave birth to ?(I assume that's what happened)Her creature resembles one of these upper cathedral creatures ,but its smaller and red as opposed to gray


Is there a way to save the girl ? One of the most disturbing moments was finding her dead and the freakish troll next to her actually muttered some words "SO COLD TO YOUR SISTER" Totally horrifying that the monsters can speak like that.

1. Yes

2. impregnated by a great old one

3. No, you should know this.

 

[Uthred]

hmm not familiar with Azathoth.Care to explain ?

Azathoth is the head of the Outer Gods in the Cthulhu mythos, with the Outer Gods being the most powerful of the various beings in it. Azathoth is the ruler and implicit creator of all existence but is referred to as "a blind idiot god," oblivious to the universe and the beings within it. Which seemed similar to the role Kos has. Azathoth does have something like a will which either is or works through Nyarlathothep. A Nyarlathothep style character would have fit in quite well in this game I think.

2. impregnated by a great old one

I assumed she was traditionally pregnant given her occupation but that the warping of the world influenced her baby ultimately leading to her birth/miscarriage of the thing. Considering the warping of the world is the hunters fault we can add that to the PC's conscience

 

[zennyzz]

Azathoth is the head of the Outer Gods in the Cthulhu mythos, with the Outer Gods being the most powerful of the various beings in it. Azathoth is the ruler and implicit creator of all existence but is referred to as "a blind idiot god," oblivious to the universe and the beings within it. Which seemed similar to the role Kos has.



I assumed she was traditionally pregnant given her occupation but that the warping of the world influenced her baby ultimately leading to her birth/miscarriage of the thing. Considering the warping of the world is the hunters fault we can add that to the PC's conscience

Who do what now? I thought the narrative was very clear that the hunter has no actual effect on the goings ons that are happening. The PC only ever does harm to Eldritch machinations. If not completely oblivious to them.

 

[Karsticles]

A quote from the Doll:
"Gehrman is obscure, unseen in the dreaming world. Yet still, he resides here, in this dream".

 

[Uthred]

Who do what now? I thought the narrative was very clear that the hunter has no actual effect on the goings ons that are happening. The PC only ever does harm to Eldritch machinations. If not completely oblivious to them.

The only reason time such as it is progresses is is due to the PC's action, as the world, and the NPC's get more mental with each new moon phase its the PC's "fault" for advancing time/their own agenda. Though its not entirely clear if time progresses because time progresses or if it only progresses due to your actions, that good old ludo narrative dissoanance I suppose

 

[HeelPower]

Azathoth is the head of the Outer Gods in the Cthulhu mythos, with the Outer Gods being the most powerful of the various beings in it. Azathoth is the ruler and implicit creator of all existence but is referred to as "a blind idiot god," oblivious to the universe and the beings within it. Which seemed similar to the role Kos has. Azathoth does have something like a will which either is or works through Nyarlathothep. A Nyarlathothep style character would have fit in quite well in this game I think.

Okay, I should read up on this.It seems interesting enough in its own right!

 

[zennyzz]

The only reason time such as it is progresses is is due to the PC's action, as the world, and the NPC's get more mental with each new moon phase its the PC's "fault" for advancing time/their own agenda. Though its not entirely clear if time progresses because time progresses or if it only progresses due to your actions, that good old ludo narrative dissoanance I suppose

That's a ridiculous assertion. There's nothing lore wise that suggests any enemy or particular situation is related to sealing time in a particular phase. If anything, it's just time passing as certain things happen, regardless of the things actually happening.

It'd be like saying that because I ate toast, some soldier in a war got shot, just because they happen simultaneously or the event happened after I ate the toast.

It'd be like saying you're the reason Siegmeyer goes hollow or Solaire goes mad. You aren't.

 

[HeelPower]

Is there any reason to assume Arianna is related to Cainhurst castle in some way at least ?

We do find her dress there after all.

And what is the strange creature's role in Oedon chapel ?

 

[zennyzz]

Is there any reason to assume Arianna is related to Cainhurst castle in some way at least ?

We do find her dress there after all.

And what is the strange creature's role in Oedon chapel ?

I thought it was clear from her blood that she was one of the Cainhurst Aristocrats.

As for the strange creature, do you mean the leper?

Think hunchback of Notre Dame

 

[HeelPower]

I thought it was clear from her blood that she was one of the Cainhurst Aristocrats.

As for the strange creature, do you mean the leper?

Think hunchback of Notre Dame

Thanks..

Oh man what a crazy set of NPCs this time around...

So messed up.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Wait, isn't Laurence young and Willem old in the game flashback? Laurence being the wheelchair makes perfect sense, but shouldn't Willem be dead then? Is he kept alive by Rom? Why?

Also, why does Laurence disappear then? lol

Also, all hunters cant see the spiders, even after the viel breaks. You'd think characters like Eileen would be concerned lol.

When that "the viel is broken" message is displayed, it means for you specifically (you've now killed a Kin and absorbed it's essence). You now have more insight, it just isn't calculated by the meter because then you'd be able to accidentally spend it and be unable to progress. It just means you have lots of eyes now, that's why high-insight enemies start appearing then as well independent of insight.

 

[zennyzz]

Wait, isn't Laurence young and Willem old in the game flashback? Laurence being the wheelchair makes perfect sense, but shouldn't Willem be dead then? Is he kept alive by Rom? Why?

Also, why does Laurence disappear then? lol

Also, all hunters cant see the spiders, even after the viel breaks. You'd think characters like Eileen would be concerned lol.

When that "the viel is broken" message is displayed, it means for you specifically. You now have more insight, it just isn't calculated by the meter because then you'd be able to accidentally spend it and be unable to progress. It just means you have lots of eyes now, that's why high-insight enemies start appearing then as well independent of insight.

There's a literal note, in cathedral ward(first thing you pass) that mentions that rom hides the presence of the creatures from human sight.

Why assume eileen can't see them? It's also probable that she knew they were there all along. One of the very first things she tells you is there are no more humans left in Yharnam.

 

[Beelzebufo]

There's a literal note, in cathedral ward(first thing you pass) that mentions that rom hides the presence of the creatures from human sight.

Why assume eileen can't see them? It's also probable that she knew they were there all along.

Wouldn't Eileen mention it? Wouldn't other NPCs respond to seeing it? The note you're talking about doesn't say that either haha. It says it keeps their master from them, but according to Karst they could always see it anyway ???

It also isn't clear who "our lost master" is. Amygdala?

Edit: Man I'm stupid. I already realized this. You're wrong about the note. It's talking about how Rom has Willim trapped. He's keeping their lost master (Willim, master of the school) from them.

So no, Rom doesn't keep knowledge of the spiders from everyone. They already know about them, but can't see them unless they have insight haha

 

[GorillaJu]

Not much is being said about what Willem says in the flashback but it seems like a pivotal quote. He also suspects Laurence of betraying him.

 

[zennyzz]

Wouldn't Eileen mention it? Wouldn't other NPCs respond to seeing it? The note you're talking about doesn't say that either haha. It says it keeps their master from them, but according to Karst they could always see it anyway ???

It also isn't clear who "our lost master" is. Amygdala?

Edit: Man I'm stupid. I already realized this. You're wrong about the note. It's talking about how Rom has Willim trapped. He's keeping their lost master (Willim, master of the school) from them.

NPCs that include, Eileen who's deemed the entire city heretical from jump street and has mentioned she no longer dreams, Arianna who's busy pregnant inside, Adella who's a member of the healing church, the leper who can't move, the old guy who's a skeptic of everything and prefers not to talk to you and the old woman who's beyond broken well before you even kill rom.

Also Karst is a member of Mensis, they're not the only faction that worships the great old ones and there's no reason for a Yah'argul note to be in the cathedral ward basement.

 

[Beelzebufo]

NPCs that include, Eileen who's deemed the entire city heretical from jump street and has mentioned she no longer dreams, Arianna who's busy pregnant inside, Adella who's a member of the healing church, the leper who can't move, the old guy who's a skeptic of everything and prefers not to talk to you and the old woman who's beyond broken well before you even kill rom.

Also Karst is a member of Mensis, they're not the only faction that worships the great old ones and there's no reason for a Yah'argul note to be in the cathedral ward basement.

Karst is a poster here haha. Willem is the person the note is talking about. The note says that Willem is trapped in Byrgenwyrth with Rom, and everyone wants to find him.

You only see the spiders after fighting Rom because of the insight you now have. That's why all of the effects are the same as high insight.

Also, people that include literally every villager haha

 

[Soulflarz]

Karst is a poster here haha. Willem is the person the note is talking about. The note says that Willem is trapped in Byrgenwyrth with Rom, and everyone wants to find him.

Maybe the lore is about all of us? >.>

 

[Karsticles]

Wouldn't Eileen mention it? Wouldn't other NPCs respond to seeing it? The note you're talking about doesn't say that either haha. It says it keeps their master from them, but according to Karst they could always see it anyway ???

It also isn't clear who "our lost master" is. Amygdala?

Edit: Man I'm stupid. I already realized this. You're wrong about the note. It's talking about how Rom has Willim trapped. He's keeping their lost master (Willim, master of the school) from them.

So no, Rom doesn't keep knowledge of the spiders from everyone. They already know about them, but can't see them unless they have insight haha

I am not sure what the last sentence of your first paragraph is referring to.

I am not sure what Eileen does or says if you help her. In my game, she went insane and we fought. She said things that clearly indicated awareness of higher power activities.

NPCs that include, Eileen who's deemed the entire city heretical from jump street and has mentioned she no longer dreams, Arianna who's busy pregnant inside, Adella who's a member of the healing church, the leper who can't move, the old guy who's a skeptic of everything and prefers not to talk to you and the old woman who's beyond broken well before you even kill rom.

Also Karst is a member of Mensis, they're not the only faction that worships the great old ones and there's no reason for a Yah'argul note to be in the cathedral ward basement.

I am a member of Mensis.

 

[Coconut]

Good speculations all, I'm really hoping DLC will be added to clear up a lot of our questions.

I really hope not. The speculating is the best part. Keep it vague. I hope if there is DLC it just creates more questions.

 

[Nothing1016]

Do new notes pop up in NG+ or did I just miss some? For example I don't remember this note on my first playthrough:

"The Byrgenwerth spider hides all manner of rituals, and keeps our lost master from us. A terrible shame. It makes my head shudder uncontrollably."

Was it always there?

Edit: looks like crazy. need to pay attention more.

 

[The Xtortionist]

Do new notes pop up in NG+ or did I just miss some? For example I don't remember this note on my first playthrough:

"The Byrgenwerth spider hides all manner of rituals, and keeps our lost master from us. A terrible shame. It makes my head shudder uncontrollably."

Was it always there?

Yes.

 

[Nothing1016]

Yes.

Lol all right. I'm just going crazy then. So what's the pint of NG+? No new info just a challenge?

 

[The Xtortionist]

Lol all right. I'm just going crazy then. So what's the pint of NG+? No new info just a challenge?

More blood

fear the blood

(except when you're using it to level up)

 

[Beelzebufo]

I am not sure what the last sentence of your first paragraph is referring to.

I am not sure what Eileen does or says if you help her. In my game, she went insane and we fought. She said things that clearly indicated awareness of higher power activities.


I am a member of Mensis.

Does she? Like she talks about the great ones? Or just the dream?

Also she talked about to me (I did her quest) was how she was old and needed to get hunters.

The Hunter's Dream is common knowledge amongst hunters, but it doesn't seem like the spiders are. Only people with insight see spiders.

 

[SargerusBR]

So i'm currently fighting Yharnam in the Chalice Dungeon and she's still pregnant. Mergo is still inside her.

 

[Neiteio]

So i'm currently fighting Yharnam in the Chalice Dungeon and she's still pregnant. Mergo is still inside her.

So what you mean to tell me is you're beating a pregnant woman? :-\

 

[Yurt]

So i'm currently fighting Yharnam in the Chalice Dungeon and she's still pregnant. Mergo is still inside her.

If you eat three umbilical cords before fighting her, she doesn't attack you in her last phase. She just stares at you helplessly and you hear a baby crying (again)

Either that or my game was bugged, because I don't see anyone talking about this anywhere heh

 

[GorillaJu]

If you eat three umbilical cords before fighting her, she doesn't attack you in her last phase. She just stares at you helplessly and you hear a baby crying (again)

Either that or my game was bugged, because I don't see anyone talking about this anywhere heh

Wow that's really interesting... And creepy.

 

[Yurt]

Wow that's really interesting... And creepy.

Most people did the Chalice after finishing the game, but as you know already, I kept the last boss on hold so I still had the cords in my stomach

 

[DealWithIt]

You guys are talking about ROM as a great one, I don't think that's right. I think he used to be human. So if he is a great one he's a great one that was formerly human. In the boss fight in the nightmare of Mensis, Micolash pleads with the cosmos to "grant him eyes as he once did for the vacuous Rom." I think ROM is one of the otherwise unmet main characters of the game, whether it's Laurence, or Mensis, or someone else. This is the person who gained enough insight that the became something entirely different. There's a note beneath Oedon chapel that says that the spider of Byrgenwyrth is hiding their master from them.

 

[Shengar]

Great write up, although I'm not totally convinced on the whole Rom-is-the-veil thing. Sure, the Paleblood moon appears after you beat him, but the story also advances after killing Amelia - her death isn't literally tied to the time of day, it's just that the next story beat happens after you defeat that boss.

This is a very late replies but I have theory on my own. So in my first post in this thread, I said that Vicar Amelia is pregnant with something. She chanting some incantations before she or whatever inside her transformed, most likely in self defense as she sense great danger. What I suggest is the possibility of Vicar Amelia or any other vicars before her, help Rom (maybe direct or indirect) maintaining the veil. While Rom possibly maintaining the veil whole time, the vicars only helped Rom during the night of the hunt where the Great Ones descent to human realm.

A bit note in Amelia herself, you can see how she so clinging to her gold pendant. It might be the last thing that remind her humanity or sanity, which mean she knows what would come to her during the night of the hunt.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

If you eat three umbilical cords before fighting her, she doesn't attack you in her last phase. She just stares at you helplessly and you hear a baby crying (again)

Either that or my game was bugged, because I don't see anyone talking about this anywhere heh

Isn't there some AI script bug that causes some bosses to break? That might be tied to that.

 

[GorillaJu]

Most people did the Chalice after finishing the game, but as you know already, I kept the last boss on hold so I still had the cords in my stomach

Well that's the way to go if you want to use the Burial Blade to do optional content in NG!

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

If you eat three umbilical cords before fighting her, she doesn't attack you in her last phase. She just stares at you helplessly and you hear a baby crying (again)

Either that or my game was bugged, because I don't see anyone talking about this anywhere heh

I'd eaten mine at that point, she attacked all the way till the end

 

[GorillaJu]

I thought the post earlier saying that the moon represented a menstrual cycle was silly but it can't be coincidental that so much of the lore revolves around birth, and that the sign of the Great One's birth is the blood moon.

 

[Yurt]

I'd eaten mine at that point, she attacked all the way till the end

I had the coolest bug ever then!

 

[daninthemix]

Why are there eyeballs all over certain areas of the game? And where were they obtained from?

 

[Grady]

So, how many time do you have to beat the game for platinum? 3?

 

[Nothing1016]

So, how many time do you have to beat the game for platinum? 3?

Yup. Three different endings.

 

[GwyndolinCinder]

I love how the hintertomb chalice requires the bloodshot eyeballs, which you can get from hemwick, where the citizens are trying to perform the chalice ritual and then inside the dungeon you find the witches