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[thewhitehawk]

I did no such thing.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Yharnam is a real place, hence you being able to visit the area of Hunters Refuge in the actual non-dream world. It also explains why picking up all those items (hair braid thing) and giving it to the doll back in the dream, she starts to say stuff like "what is this strange feeling of familiarity", etc like she's actually remembering her emotions and then cries and gives you an item.

No the Hunter's Dream is the dream within your fever dream, which still doesn't exist. Only your paleblood, medicine, and Wheelchair Guy are real.

 

[theSlacker]

So before I found the back entrance to Iosefka's clinic, I knocked on the door and she thanked me for sending a guy to the place and gave me an item (forgot if it was just a vial or something else) in return. I didn't send anyone to the clinic and as far as I know there isn't even a male character who you can send anywhere.

Who was she talking about?

The guy across from the prostitutes window. After you send her somewhere you will have an option to send him somewhere when you talk to him, and he will go to the opposite of where you tell him to go last I think.

 

[Uthred]

Yharnam is a real place, hence you being able to visit the area of Hunters Refuge in the actual non-dream world. It also explains why picking up all those items (hair braid thing) and giving it to the doll back in the dream, she starts to say stuff like "what is this strange feeling of familiarity", etc like she's actually remembering her emotions and then cries and gives you an item.

But the hunters refuge you visit in the "non-dream" world is part of the "Nightmare" Yharnam, unless you're saying only the Hunters Dream is a dream? It strikes me that while stuff like this is fun I've the sneaking suspicion that there is no "master-plan" in the background and the games lore is purposefully designed to be ultimately ambiguous

 

[SargerusBR]

Need to do a Guts build run soon.

 

[Beelzebufo]

But the hunters refuge you visit in the "non-dream" world is part of the "Nightmare" Yharnam, unless you're saying only the Hunters Dream is a dream? It strikes me that while stuff like this is fun I've the sneaking suspicion that there is no "maste-plan" in the background and the games lore is purposefully designed to be ultimately ambiguous

Yeah, like even just going with the beginning of the game, why does the wolf set on fire? How did it get there? What are the messengers?

Why are there snakes in the woods? Because snakes are scary. The whole game is set in a world where nothing good happens and everything vaguely scary is there, because it's not the real world. It's just a bad dream.

 

[VinFTW]

You guys are probably right, forgot about the nightmare, which makes sense considering the "submit" ending.

And I do hope there is a master plan story, it's just too fucking good to not have it. Miyazaki is a genius.

I'm figuring the inevitable DLC will do what the Abyss DLC did for Dark Souls lore. Completely shed light and make sense of it all.

 

[theSlacker]

So Gherman is basically the one enslaved by the Moon Presence (since he is the most powerful hunter) to recruit hunters and and shape them to be the most powerful in order for the moon presence to consume their essence and gain "power"?

That's why Gherman gets so pissed when you abuse your power, because that means he'll get replaced.

Listen to him when he is sleeping sometimes. He really is not happy with his situation and cries out about it in the last one.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

They obviously are. That's why the wheelchair guy exists in one or not the other, and why beasts and messengers and dolls and shit exist in one but not the other.

I think it's really, really silly to say the whole game is a fever induced nightmare, and trying to boil the game down to a basic level of "is a dream, is not a dream" isn't really good conversation or lore building.

It doens't even fit within the games lore either. The ending when you wake up from "the dream" is clearly just an ending where the night has passed and the cycle continues with you knowing nothing, which is clear from Micolash when you kill him that if you "wake up" from the dream you forget everything.

You are even told from the "you may think it all a mere bad dream", emphasis being on the "may".

idk, I just think trying to argue "it was a dream all along" just isn't really an argument, unless something in the game backs it up with item descriptions or events.

 

[Zomba13]

Yeah I thought so too, but then I actually looked at Gherman and realized. Who the fuck is that lol.

I guess the rest of the game after the first scene isn't real. You imagine the beasts, the messengers, you create Gherman based on the wheelchair guy, and you keep imagining paleblood because that's the condition you have. Everything else is your imagination. That's why you have amnesia (even though you remembered your backstory and name before the transfusion) and how you made it isn't Yharnam in the first place.

Yharnam is actually just a very reputable healing city with weird styles.

Yeah, this is definitely all a dream.

I'm also in camp "It was all a dream" because the first ending (decapitation) has you waking up in what looks like real Yharnam in the morning. Maybe that option has the procedure be a success and you are alive and the other options are more you stuck in the dream/coma? Maybe it's not so much a dream but your interpretation of events? Like after the wheelchair man gives you Yharnam blood you go on a rampage through the streets and then wake up outside the clinic at the end?

Or it's all super Cthulu dream world stuff. It's hard to tell which I think is the point.

 

[Beelzebufo]

I think it's really, really silly to say the whole game is a fever induced nightmare, and trying to boil the game down to a basic level of "is a dream, is not a dream" isn't really good conversation or lore building.

It doens't even fit within the games lore either. The ending when you wake up from "the dream" is clearly just an ending where the night has passed and the cycle continues with you knowing nothing, which is clear from Micolash when you kill him that if you "wake up" from the dream you forget everything.

You are even told from the "you may think it all a mere bad dream", emphasis being on the "may".

There can be lore inside the dream as well!

And where who do you think Wheelchair is then?

And do you remember all of your dreams? What Micolash says makes sense.

 

[Darryl M R]

Listen to him when he is sleeping sometimes. He really is not happy with his situation and cries out about it in the last one.

Do you have any videos or can you paraphrase some of what he says?

 

[VinFTW]

Listen to him when he is sleeping sometimes. He really is not happy with his situation and cries out about it in the last one.

Yeah, he hates it, but he has no choice, which is why he is so sympathetic when he wants to kill us, he wants to let us free so we can live in ignorant bliss. He has NO choice, he's enslaved/stuck there forever. Which is why he hates that we want the power, because we'll be stuck forever.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

There can be lore inside the dream as well!

And where who do you think Wheelchair is then?

Probably fucking dead from the bitch who took over the clinic.

Like I said, I'm gonna need some clear evidence and really good theories that this shit was all a dream. We're dealing with pans-dimensional aliens here who clearly have the ability to fuck with peoples heads. The "wake up" ending can clearly be one where the hunt is over, mission complete, cycle continues all over again and you remember nothing, just as Miclash said.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Probably fucking dead from the bitch who took over the clinic.

Why aren't you dead then too? I mean I see what you're saying, but the first intro video seems to be completely disconnected from everything else in the game (Paleblood? Wheelchair? You remember you past?) and it ends with the nightmare line.

I'll conceed that the contract part and "Unravel it's mystery" part don't make much sense.

Edit: I just started a new game and was really confused, because nothing made sense after playing like I thought it would.

 

[Jaeger]

That's crazy. I barely gave the intro guy a second look. I just assumed it was Gehrman.

 

[VinFTW]

Its not "all of dream", if it was, then whats the point of the blood/hunt?

The point is that the blood was found to be able to contact the Great Ones, hence this whole situation arising and beasts forming leading to The Great Ones harvesting hunters, etc, etc.

It's all super complicated and I really can't wait till some lore master sums it all up in one big video ala "The Sopranos: Definitive Ending Explanation".

 

[theSlacker]

Do you have any videos or can you paraphrase some of what he says?

The earlier times when he speaks he just asks what is taking Laurence so long, and that he is too old and can't be much help, then near the end he cries out for Laurence and Master Willem saying how he can't take this dream anymore and sounds really sad/pitiful.

 

[Zomba13]

The thing that should discredit the "You may think it all a bad dream" isn't the may but the "he he he he he" laugh afterwards. The souls laugh of everyone hiding their true intentions. He's telling you it's all a dream and laughing to himself about it.

I think either everything post wheelchair man pre head chop is a dream or everything in the hunter's deam/lecture hall/nightmare are dreams.

There may not be any item descriptions to say that stuff before we get control and after losing our heads is a dream but that is because we don't get items in the "real" world and the more mundane items, or things belonging to hunters and the like could be accurate to both dream world and reality.


The main thing going against "it was all a dream" seems to be that because that is shit it can't be true.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Its not "all of dream", if it was, then whats the point of the blood/hunt?

The point is that the blood was found to be able to contact the Great Ones, hence this whole situation arising and beasts forming leading to The Great Ones harvesting hunters, etc, etc.

It's all super complicated and I really can't wait till some lore master sums it all up in one big video ala "The Sopranos: Definitive Ending Explanation".

The blood/hunt is part of the dream, right? Or does he mention the hunt in the first cutscene?

Also, other random questions.

Who is Kos (or some say Kosm?)
Is the moon presence the same as Oedon? Edit: I guess not since it has a form.

 

[Zomba13]

The blood/hunt is part of the dream, right? Or does he mention the hunt in the first cutscene?

Also, other random questions.

Who is Kos (or some say Kosm?)
Is the moon presence the same as Oedon? Edit: I guess not since it has a form.

I think Oedon is only formless because they people only heard from it rather than saw it. So it was formless. I can't remember the item or rune description but it led me to think that Oedon wasn't a formless ghost thing but reather a Great One that just communicated with the Church (probably telepathically? because aliens).

 

[Beelzebufo]

I think Oedon is only formless because they people only heard from it rather than saw it. So it was formless. I can't remember the item or rune description but it led me to think that Oedon wasn't a formless ghost thing but reather a Great One that just communicated with the Church (probably telepathically? because aliens).

Hmm that makes sense too. The only reason I'd think he's actually formless is because apparently blood is his essence, and it says that he is formless, not that the church thinks he is formless if that makes sense.

 

[SargerusBR]

Who is Kos (or some say Kosm?)

My theory is that Kos is a deity/Great One that is actually the embodiment of the cosmos, in a sense he's the God of the game's universe.

 

[Jaeger]

Looking back at the leaked trailer footage, it's interesting seeing Ebrietas in the Grand Cathedral and not where she apparently appropriately ends up in the actual game.

 

[Karsticles]

They obviously are. That's why the wheelchair guy exists in one or not the other, and why beasts and messengers and dolls and shit exist in one but not the other.

Assuming you are right, and the two are distinct, you don't know what exists in the real world. You are there for all of 30 seconds before getting infused.

Presumably, you get infused with blood, which lets you begin to see things connected to the source of that blood: the Old Ones.

The opening of the game is you signing a contract, and toward the end you break the contract. The hunter's contract. Why would you be signing a hunter's contract in the real world if there's nothing to hunt?

It doesn't make sense that the Old Workshop and The Hunter's Dream are the same location yet both in a dream world. There is no reason our character would have two separate fake facilities to find. It's clearly intended to demonstrate that the area has a "dream" existence within The Hunter's Dream, and then a secondary existence that is unclear.

There are three endings to choose from:

Bad Ending: you wake up and everything is cool. If this is all really just a dream, why is this the bad ending? That should be the good ending - the nightmare is eliminated, and you get back to living. Except the dream world exists independently of yourself, because it shows the doll saying "May you find your worth in the waking world". Your perspective is entirely incoherent based on this ending's existence alone. She is standing over your grave, because you are dream-dead (more on this later). You are not dreaming, or (more likely in my opinion), you are not the source of The Hunter's Dream.

Good Ending: you beat Gehrman and take his place. I don't see this as being significant for the purposes of our discussion.

True Ending: you become an Old One. Why is the True Ending about you becoming a creature in your dream and being trapped in it forever? That's ridiculous. Furthermore, the True Ending has no component about waking up, or even being in a dream state, which one might suppose if one were getting the True Ending.

Here is what I think:
At the beginning, you sign the hunter contract. You are a dream hunter, and you simply cease to exist in the "real" world. The real world is very much like Yharnam, but it is the world that the inhabitants of Yharnam share with you to some degree. You exist on a different plane from them, yet still interact with them. You can also travel between dreams, which is why you can enter The Hunter's Dream. Dying is no longer death for you, because you are an immortal dream figment now. However, that is all you are now - your true body is a figment. You are taken away by the Messengers at the start of the game, and placed in The Hunter's Dream.

The Old Ones are real, but they exist on a separate plane of existence from the waking world. However, the Old Ones can still interact with the waking world. They can impregnate normal women, they can crush bodies, and their blood, which you are presumably infused with at the start of the game, is a very real thing people drink and are addicted to. By signing the contract, you become more like the Old Ones. You now exist on a separate-yet-interactive plane from the waking world.

This also helps explain why Eileen is also aware of The Hunter's Dream. She was given an injection as well, but decided to abandon that dream to solely exists in the one you do (or maybe she has other planes she visits - we don't know). Eileen comments a lot on whether other hunters can handle their job, and she claims to kill hunters that go insane. Living in the dream world takes a significant toll on your sanity. It is hard to maintain yourself, especially as you gain insight.

If you are a normal person, you only see what happens in Yharnam in a way your normal, mortal mind can comprehend. Werewolves, and such. Do not forget that the villagers in Central Yharnam are burning a werewolf. I take it that those villagers exist in the real world, and think they actually killed a werewolf. However, they do not see many other supernatural phenomena, such as the Old Ones or the orange moon. There is a veil, kept by Rom, that keeps the plane of the Old Ones separated from ours. Killing Rom breaks that veil. More importantly, as a dream hunter, you can see into the plane of the Old Ones before Rom dies. This is part of your multi-plane existence.

I would write more, but I have to take off for now. At the very least, I hope my post helps you understand that your perspective is untenable.

 

[VinFTW]

The blood/hunt is part of the dream, right? Or does he mention the hunt in the first cutscene?

Also, other random questions.

Who is Kos (or some say Kosm?)
Is the moon presence the same as Oedon? Edit: I guess not since it has a form.

But the blood/hunt is a product of real events that occurred, it caused contact with the great ones which eventually set up this dream/nightmare to harvest humans/hunters.

if that makes sense?

Spoiler

my head hurts

 

[AngryMoth]

Is there much lore about Micolash in the game? I have a few questions about him. For example, if the it's Menis's nightmare why is Menis not the host? Also if he is the host the why does the nightmare not end when you kill him, but instead Mergo's wet nurse?

 

[Beelzebufo]

Assuming you are right, and the two are distinct, you don't know what exists in the real world. You are there for all of 30 seconds before getting infused.

Presumably, you get infused with blood, which lets you begin to see things connected to the source of that blood: the Old Ones.

The opening of the game is you signing a contract, and toward the end you break the contract. The hunter's contract. Why would you be signing a hunter's contract in the real world if there's nothing to hunt?

It doesn't make sense that the Old Workshop and The Hunter's Dream are the same location yet both in a dream world. There is no reason our character would have two separate fake facilities to find. It's clearly intended to demonstrate that the area has a "dream" existence within The Hunter's Dream, and then a secondary existence that is unclear.

There are three endings to choose from:

Bad Ending: you wake up and everything is cool. If this is all really just a dream, why is this the bad ending? That should be the good ending - the nightmare is eliminated, and you get back to living. Except the dream world exists independently of yourself, because it shows the doll saying "May you find your worth in the waking world". Your perspective is entirely incoherent based on this ending's existence alone. She is standing over your grave, because you are dream-dead (more on this later). You are not dreaming, or (more likely in my opinion), you are not the source of The Hunter's Dream.

Good Ending: you beat Gehrman and take his place. I don't see this as being significant for the purposes of our discussion.

True Ending: you become an Old One. Why is the True Ending about you becoming a creature in your dream and being trapped in it forever? That's ridiculous. Furthermore, the True Ending has no component about waking up, or even being in a dream state, which one might suppose if one were getting the True Ending.

Here is what I think:
At the beginning, you sign the hunter contract. You are a dream hunter, and you simply cease to exist in the "real" world. The real world is very much like Yharnam, but it is the world that the inhabitants of Yharnam share with you to some degree. You exist on a different plane from them, yet still interact with them. You can also travel between dreams, which is why you can enter The Hunter's Dream. Dying is no longer death for you, because you are an immortal dream figment now. However, that is all you are now - your true body is a figment. You are taken away by the Messengers at the start of the game, and placed in The Hunter's Dream.

The Old Ones are real, but they exist on a separate plane of existence from the waking world. However, the Old Ones can still interact with the waking world. They can impregnate normal women, they can crush bodies, and their blood, which you are presumably infused with at the start of the game, is a very real thing people drink and are addicted to. By signing the contract, you become more like the Old Ones. You now exist on a separate-yet-interactive plane from the waking world.

This also helps explain why Eileen is also aware of The Hunter's Dream. She was given an injection as well, but decided to abandon that dream to solely exists in the one you do (or maybe she has other planes she visits - we don't know). Eileen comments a lot on whether other hunters can handle their job, and she claims to kill hunters that go insane. Living in the dream world takes a significant toll on your sanity. It is hard to maintain yourself, especially as you gain insight.

If you are a normal person, you only see what happens in Yharnam in a way your normal, mortal mind can comprehend. Werewolves, and such. Do not forget that the villagers in Central Yharnam are burning a werewolf. I take it that those villagers exist in the real world, and think they actually killed a werewolf. However, they do not see many other supernatural phenomena, such as the Old Ones or the orange moon. There is a veil, kept by Rom, that keeps the plane of the Old Ones separated from ours. Killing Rom breaks that veil. More importantly, as a dream hunter, you can see into the plane of the Old Ones before Rom dies. This is part of your multi-plane existence.

I would write more, but I have to take off for now. At the very least, I hope my post helps you understand that your perspective is untenable.

The second and third endings are you still being asleep. It kind of fits in with the theme of losing control to beasthood, you've completely descended into madness and became a monster, with no hope of ever waking up. The first ending is the one where you wake up. Does the game ever call this the bad ending? You create everything else in your head.

That's why you go to Yharnam in the first place, you're really sick and it's known for its medicine. You take loose associations of things you see and hear and fear and make "Yharnam", where the events of the game take place.

And for what it's worth, not all hunters dream in the first place, so how could they be semi-dream beings?

 

[VinFTW]

.

If this were true then I just don't understand the significance of a veil that hides monsters in a dream world that only bad-ass hunters would be able to see in the first place.

I thought the veil existed to hide the fact that their are these great ones harvesting and manipulating us for power/resource/personal pleasure/whatever.

Why would they have to hide something that is already hidden from normal people in a dream world?

 

[Uthred]

It doens't even fit within the games lore either. The ending when you wake up from "the dream" is clearly just an ending where the night has passed and the cycle continues with you knowing nothing, which is clear from Micolash when you kill him that if you "wake up" from the dream you forget everything.

I dont think anything can be considered "clear" coming from Micolash, who you encounter in a dream (which is either a dream or a dream within a dream), he could be waking up from the "dream dream" into the dream Yharnam. Either way he's an immensely unrealiable witness.

I'm also not a fan of "it was all a dream", because it feels like an ultimately lazy framing device given the games lore.

Why would they have to hide something that is already hidden from normal people in a dream world?

Not really on board with Karsticles theory but thats easily enough explained by framing Insight as you becoming more like a Great One/getting deeper into the dream

 

[VinFTW]

I dont think anything can be considered "clear" coming from Micolash, who you encounter in a dream (which is either a dream or a dream within a dream), he could be waking up from the "dream dream" into the dream Yharnam. Either way he's an immensely unrealiable witness.

I'm also not a fan of "it was all a dream", because it feels like an ultimately lazy framing device given the games lore.



Not really on board with Karsticles theory but thats easily enough explained by framing Insight as you becoming more like a Great One/getting deeper into the dream

Yeah, I get what it's suppoosed to mean, but what I'm saying is:

You have the "real" yharnam after you "submit your life". The one in which you are held before signing the contract. THAT's where I'd expect a veil to be to hide these giant monsters from normal people to make them oblivious to whats going on with the great ones and what the blood ministration has done to contact them, etc.

Idk, I disagree with Karsticles theory so I'll stop confusing myself.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I dont think anything can be considered "clear" coming from Micolash, who you encounter in a dream (which is either a dream or a dream within a dream), he could be waking up from the "dream dream" into the dream Yharnam. Either way he's an immensely unrealiable witness.

I'm also not a fan of "it was all a dream", because it feels like an ultimately lazy framing device given the games lore.

Well, I don't think the "dreams" and "nightmares" are even dreams.

To me, the dream worlds are simply The Great One's dimensions where they inhabit. It's why that giant brain is living in the nightmare, or why Moon Presence shows up in the Hunters Dream.

It's why Rom's level is so similar in color and atmosphere as the Hunters Dream. Rom's area was a dimensinal like between the human realm and The Great One's to keep TGO's hidden from humans.

 

[Beelzebufo]

Well, I don't think the "dreams" and "nightmares" are even dreams.

To me, the dream worlds are simply The Great One's dimensions where they inhabit. It's why that giant brain is living in the nightmare, or why Moon Presence shows up in the Hunters Dream.

It's why Rom's level is so similar in color and atmosphere as the Hunters Dream. Rom's area was a dimensinal like between the human realm and The Great One's to keep TGO's hidden from humans.

Oh yeah, definitely. Dream=Realm. Hunter's Dream is moon presence's realm, but I don't know who's realm "the nightmare" is. Everyone's?

Maybe they're just called "dreams" because you're half remembering when the wheelchair man said "dream" in the real world because you went to sleep, so that's what your brain calls it.

 

[Uthred]

Well, I don't think the "dreams" and "nightmares" are even dreams.

To me, the dream worlds are simply The Great One's dimensions where they inhabit. It's why that giant brain is living in the nightmare, or why Moon Presence shows up in the Hunters Dream.

It's why Rom's level is so similar in color and atmosphere as the Hunters Dream. Rom's area was a dimensinal like between the human realm and The Great One's to keep TGO's hidden from humans.

I'd prefer to thnk of the various realms as the Great One's dreams, "dead but dreaming" and so forth

Assuming you are right, and the two are distinct, you don't know what exists in the real world. You are there for all of 30 seconds before getting infused.

Presumably, you get infused with blood, which lets you begin to see things connected to the source of that blood: the Old Ones.

The opening of the game is you signing a contract, and toward the end you break the contract. The hunter's contract. Why would you be signing a hunter's contract in the real world if there's nothing to hunt?

Well we know Yharnam probably exists in the real world (though arguably given his phrasing Yharnam could be some kind of oneric realm). We also know the PC gets infused with some Yharnam blood - if you accept the real/dream dichotomy then we know nothing about that blood, the Old Ones could be entirely a dream fabrication and as such the blood could be anything. Similarly all we know is that you signed a "real" contract, its your presumption that its the hunters contract. For all we know it could be medical insurance. Your post does nothing to prove the real/dream theory is "untenable" because, well, it uses information from the "Dream" (which in the real/dream theory is all unreliable) to support it. In essence the "real/dream" theory cant be proven wrong as it were because theres so very little "real" evidence to work with.

Though, apart from not personally liking the "real/dream" theory, its ultimately academic, if nothing that occurs post transfusion is real all that does is change the framing of the lore not the lore itself. We're still left with the same questions more or less.

 

[Beelzebufo]

^ yeah, it doesn't actually change anything if most of the game is just a dream lol. I mean, none of this is real anyway.

It also annoys me that the official Bloodborne wiki has Rom listed as one of the Old Ones, even though he drops Kin Coldblood which means he's kin of the Old Ones, not one himself. He was some dude who was ascended into spider hood, as Micolash says.

 

[VinFTW]

^ yeah, it doesn't actually change anything if most of the game is just a dream lol. I mean, none of this is real anyway.

It also annoys me that the official Bloodborne wiki has Rom listed as one of the Old Ones, even though he drops Kin Coldblood which means he's kin of the Old Ones, not one himself. He was some dude who was ascended into spider hood, as Micolash says.

Can summon briefly summarize paleblood(s)?

 

[Beelzebufo]

Can summon briefly summarize paleblood(s)?

Like what paleblood is? I have no idea what it is lol, and apparently nobody else does. Apparently it's needed to transcend the hunt according to a note you find. The way he says it makes it sound like either you have it (disease?) or you want it.

Actually, it's mentioned in association with the underground people as well, and might be referring to the moon. So "seek the moon to transcend the hunt".

 

[Zomba13]

Like what paleblood is? I have no idea what it is lol, and apparently nobody else does. Apparently it's needed to transcend the hunt according to a note you find. The way he says it makes it sound like either you have it (disease?) or you want it.

Actually, it's mentioned in association with the underground people as well, and might be referring to the moon. So "seek the moon to transcend the hunt".

There is reference to the red moon being a "paleblood" moon. It could be that the great ones are paleblood? Seek paleblood to transcend the hunt, seek the great ones to transcend the hunt. Plaeblood moon, The One Reborn and the Moon Presence both seemingly come from the plaeblood moon.

 

[CarewiseGamgee]

I haven't seen this suggested so i will throw it out there. Perhaps Laurence is the guy in the wheelchair at the beginning of the game and you are his experiment with paleblood.

 

[VinFTW]

There is reference to the red moon being a "paleblood" moon. It could be that the great ones are paleblood? Seek paleblood to transcend the hunt, seek the great ones to transcend the hunt. Plaeblood moon, The One Reborn and the Moon Presence both seemingly come from the plaeblood moon.

Oh yeah thats right. I assume that meant "kill moon presence to end the hunt" basically, because the whole purpose was to find a new surrogate to make a new great one.

That essentially happened, I think, yeah?

 

[Beelzebufo]

I haven't seen this suggested so i will throw it out there. Perhaps Laurence is the guy in the wheelchair at the beginning of the game and you are his experiment with paleblood.

Ooh that makes sense. But then what's paleblood lol

 

[SargerusBR]

I haven't seen this suggested so i will throw it out there. Perhaps Laurence is the guy in the wheelchair at the beginning of the game and you are his experiment with paleblood.

Isnt Laurence the skull in the altar that Amelia is praying on?

 

[CarewiseGamgee]

Ooh that makes sense. But then what's paleblood lol

The way the cutscene with Laurence and Master Willem played out made it seem like Laurence wanted to do something with the old blood. Maybe the old blood and paleblood are the same. Also maybe the note you find at the very beginning of the game that says seek paleblood wasn't meant for you but was actually a note Laurence wrote for himself

 

[Uthred]

Was it the Pthumerian's who discovered the blood in the labyrinth initially? Because they seem pale as fuck, maybe paleblood is pthumerian blood or pthumerian blood mixed with the original blood? So paleblood is "purer" than Yharnam blood which has been diluted over time?

 

[zennyzz]

Okay I think I've a rough n dirty general idea of the timeline of events

Pthumeru Age

Humanity or or possibly their progenitors commune with the great old ones, items of great important abound all over the world. This ultimately culminates in the impregnation of Queen Yharnam in hopes of providing a new Great Old one. (Un)fortunately the pregnancy ends in failure, Yharnam dies, bad stuff happens. Pthumerians craft out the Tomb of the Gods and effectively die there, whilst also taking all items related to the Gods with them.

Something something, humans forget about the Great Old Ones in any substantial capacity. Yharnam the city created in remembrance of Queen Yharnam

Age of the Hunter


Hunters Rising: Years, possibly centuries later, Gehrman begins the Hunter sect/guild. Hunters at this point are essentially warriors tasked with handling beasts of variety. These beasts likely originating from the tomb of the gods or potentially anywhere really. At this time, the Tomb of the Gods is not considered particularly holy ground to many hunters, and rather a source of unique items to aid in the hunt.

Contract under a Pale Moon: Humanity has forgotten the gods in any substantial manner, that however does not mean that the gods have forgotten humanity. Gehrman or possibly(more likely I believe) his apprentice had a lover/wife/daughter/sister and lost said connection. Be it to Great Old one pregnancy or other such situation. The man is driven to mania and effectively sculpts a near perfect life like replica of this woman and then interjects the remains of an infant great old one into the doll, effectively giving it sentience. This however calls the Moon Presence to the hunter's sect and a contract, one that seems unwillingly made, is formed and the doll becomes representative of that contract between hunters and the Moon Presence. Gehrman is give as a the guard of this dream, possibly he was made the surrogate for the lost great one and thus must forever hold the dream

Dream's consequences: Gehrman is gone and likely the workshop falls into disrepair, but not without a new seal being wrought upon the hunters. Every hunter, possibly chosen by the messengers has a rune inscribe into their very minds. his connects them to the dream and provides them with powers unlike any other. They are supported and given potentially endless life by the grace of the dream and the Moon Presence. To what ends? It's impossible to tell, Hunters merely partake in the hunt

Hunters Divided: Hunters are no longer an individual group, but rather several. The Vilebloods, The Saw Hunters, The Crow Feathers, The Powderkegs. Hunting beasts, collecting blood and items, rinse and repeat

Age of the Blood

Byrgenwerth curiosity: Hunters and regular humans alike have explored the world of the tomb of the Gods, mostly for items to improve the hunt. That is of course until the scholars of Byrgenwerth came upon the Pthumeru Chalice and then the Great Ones came back(or rather a connection was finally established)

The ascension of the Healing Church: Byrgenwerth with it obtaining the chalice also obtained knowledge of Blood Healing which greatly changed the way things went about in Yharnam. Yharnam became a land capable of healing all ailments, but was likewise ostracized by the rest of the world that saw it as an utterly barbaric and heretical land.

The Healing Church was the ultimate culmination of several factors within Yharnam at the time.

Byrgenwerth Scholars with their knowledge of runes, blood and the great old ones.
Ludwig, The first Church hunter, likely a remnant of the saw hunters founded by Gehrman
The executioners, representatives of the city of Yharnam who were sent to kill the vilebloods that have opposed yharnam after obtaining a certain form of blood from byrgenwerth.

The Blood of Ash, The Plague of Beasts: Old Yharnam, home to the chalice, falls to an ailment called Ashen blood. It is an incurable disease, only capable of being healed, temporarily, by using antidote. The disease is unorthodox, it is an illness which can not be cured by blood(which is because it's caused by blood, tainted by the chalice).

Ultimately this disease, this ashen blood becomes the plague of beasts and Old Yharnam burns (And possibly the Powder Kegs with it.)

Age of the Hunt

The Church Solidifies. Under Ludwig, Yharnamites are enlisted to fight those fallen to the plague, the healing church becomes a location of power as they consolidate all of the knowledge in regards to blood healing. The church is at its greatest... but the cracks are showing.

Byrgenwerth Falling: Communion with the Great Old Ones has been greater than ever, but so has splintering ideologies. The scholars of Mensis have separate idea of how one should handle The Great Ones and eventually splinter off to form the Unseen Village, set on bringing a god to the world in the flesh. I won't suggest Laurence headed this movement, but it certainly is possible.

Possibly the greatest form of contention may have come between Provost Willem and the Healing Church. Willem was markedly against the use of blood and that likely was the reason for the split between the college and the church, where blood was a corner stone.

Hunter's end: Yharnam is no longer home to Hunters. The healing church having consolidated hunting has essentially forgotten the roots of this sect. The Vilebloods in oposition with the city. The powderkegs all but dead, along with Old Yharnam. The Crow Feathers considering everything Yharnam heretical and the Saw Hunters so long forgotten that their name holds no more meaning. Of course Hunters still exist beyond the walls of Yharnam, but from the Church's perspective, only the clergy handles the unt of beasts.

 

[Ricerocket]

Man... this reminds me of my disappointment when the anime ended abruptly.

 

[theSlacker]

Isnt Laurence the skull in the altar that Amelia is praying on?

I thought that was some sort of "holy medium" that was found in the labyrinth under Yharnam. The opening cutscene (if you leave the game at the start screen for a bit) to the game shows someone finding that skull in what looks like a chalice type area.

If would make more sense for it to have some other relation to the flashback though.

 

[Uthred]

Its sort of odd that high ranking church members, who presumably have massive Insight, keep turning into beasts as beasthood seems to be the antithesis of the Great Ones

I thought that was some sort of "holy medium" that was found in the labyrinth under Yharnam. The opening cutscene (if you leave the game at the start screen for a bit) to the game shows someone finding that skull in what looks like a chalice type area.

If would make more sense for it to have some other relation to the flashback though.

Well the two arent mutually exclusive, Laurence could have died in the labyrinth

 

[Darryl M R]

and

Good speculations all, I'm really hoping DLC will be added to clear up a lot of our questions.

 

[Karsticles]

The second and third endings are you still being asleep. It kind of fits in with the theme of losing control to beasthood, you've completely descended into madness and became a monster, with no hope of ever waking up. The first ending is the one where you wake up. Does the game ever call this the bad ending? You create everything else in your head.

That's why you go to Yharnam in the first place, you're really sick and it's known for its medicine. You take loose associations of things you see and hear and fear and make "Yharnam", where the events of the game take place.

And for what it's worth, not all hunters dream in the first place, so how could they be semi-dream beings?

I don't mean a literal dream in my post so much as a dimension connecting the real world to the Old Ones. It has its origins in dreams, but does not behave like a dream.

The idea that not fighting the final boss is the "true ending" instead of the actual true ending is utterly absurd. You COMPLETELY ignored the fact that the Doll talks to your grave, which makes it impossible that it is all simply a dream. You did this when you trolled the Smash OT, too.

If this were true then I just don't understand the significance of a veil that hides monsters in a dream world that only bad-ass hunters would be able to see in the first place.

I thought the veil existed to hide the fact that their are these great ones harvesting and manipulating us for power/resource/personal pleasure/whatever.

Why would they have to hide something that is already hidden from normal people in a dream world?

The veil might keep hunters from seeing things as well. That is why insight is necessary.

Basically, regular people see nothing.
Hunters only see with insight.

Then the veil breaks, and hunters can all see.

None of the text for the NPCs changes after the veil breaks. No one says "holy shit that monster on the side of the cathedral!" I think this would be expected if the veil hid things from humans. If anyone knows of an exception, let me know.

I dont think anything can be considered "clear" coming from Micolash, who you encounter in a dream (which is either a dream or a dream within a dream), he could be waking up from the "dream dream" into the dream Yharnam. Either way he's an immensely unrealiable witness.

I'm also not a fan of "it was all a dream", because it feels like an ultimately lazy framing device given the games lore.



Not really on board with Karsticles theory but thats easily enough explained by framing Insight as you becoming more like a Great One/getting deeper into the dream

Oh, I totally agree on the role of insight.

One thing that strikes me about Micolash is that he says "A Hunter to the end, even in dreams!" This is difficult to interpret. Also, Rom is shown to be the result of Old Ones gracing someone with power.

Well, I don't think the "dreams" and "nightmares" are even dreams.

To me, the dream worlds are simply The Great One's dimensions where they inhabit. It's why that giant brain is living in the nightmare, or why Moon Presence shows up in the Hunters Dream.

It's why Rom's level is so similar in color and atmosphere as the Hunters Dream. Rom's area was a dimensinal like between the human realm and The Great One's to keep TGO's hidden from humans.

I agree that they aren't "dreams" in the typical sense. I agree with what you say here.