The democrats never demonized bringing home a captured soldier so no it's not both sides do it.
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Bowe Berghdahl, POW in Afghanistan, to return to the US
- Thread starter j_k_redtail
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The democrats never demonized bringing home a captured soldier so no it's not both sides do it.
My take on this as someone in the military and has been to Afghanistan.
If Berghdahl did abandon his post, he needs to be punished under the UCMJ, however, you still need to bring him home.
We all know damn well that if Obama passed on this exchange, republicans would be coming out and saying that the president doesn't care about bringing our troops home.
It's the typical strategy of do the opposite of whatever your opponent does and Republicans have been playing that card from the minute Obama was sworn in back in 2008.
If Berghdahl did abandon his post, he needs to be punished under the UCMJ, however, you still need to bring him home.
We all know damn well that if Obama passed on this exchange, republicans would be coming out and saying that the president doesn't care about bringing our troops home.
It's the typical strategy of do the opposite of whatever your opponent does and Republicans have been playing that card from the minute Obama was sworn in back in 2008.
I wonder how they react when confronted about this.This might be my favorite so far. Does 180º in less than a month.
Velcro Fly
Member
But if you just sit back and believe everything they said this guy served with honor and blah blah blah and that isn't quite true. Both sides tried to use it to drum up crap for their political cause.
RustyNails
Member
I do not understand the complaints against bringing him back, even if he really was a deserter or did something really dumb. What would the critics be saying right now about Obama and WH if Taliban released a video of his beheading instead?
AnotherNils
Member
Don't you know? If you're suspected of being a deserter the government is legally obligated to leave you as a POW.
Deified Data
Banned
So I listen to a lot of right-wing radio on the ride to work as a sort of experiment in surreal absurdity and I've noticed a very real push to identify Bergdhal as a deserter and a traitor, presumably to discredit the accomplishment of bringing him home and providing a stark contrast to the 5 Taliban we traded him for. Is this position limited to the right? I haven't kept up on this thread but it seems to me like you'd want to bring the guy home whether he was a deserter or not. America's interests aren't being served by letting him die in a cave somewhere.
j_k_redtail
Member
Obviously you should take anything the administration says about this incident with a grain of salt, but this doesn't sound unrealistic. The administration isn't stupid. They had to have known the political blowback on this deal would be huge. This does explain why they would they would be willing to go through with it. Of course it would be best to remain skeptical until more information comes out.
I must have missed the part of the UCMJ that says if you are accused of desertion, the punishment is to be not rescued as a POW. No trial either, bunch of tweets and facebook posts are good enough.
Maybe we should add an asterisk to the pow/mia flag
* Unless accused of treason / desertion on facebook & twitter. Then no trial, no UCMJ, no rescue, no POW swap.
FUCK YOU GUYS.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
A couple of very naive questions:
- Why 5 guys for one? I know we wanted the deal more than they did, but 5:1 is a pretty terrible ratio
- If the reason for the lopsided trade was what some people are claiming as secret-ops tracking/chipping, wouldn't the Taliban have a way to find and remove that stuff? Or is this some magic sci-fi type chip that only Americans can detect?
- Why 5 guys for one? I know we wanted the deal more than they did, but 5:1 is a pretty terrible ratio
- If the reason for the lopsided trade was what some people are claiming as secret-ops tracking/chipping, wouldn't the Taliban have a way to find and remove that stuff? Or is this some magic sci-fi type chip that only Americans can detect?
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
What else are we going to do with the "Prisoners" we have in Cuba?
They are being held illegally, by most counts, as it is, they have not been charged with anything.
As it stands, they are being treated as Prisoners of War, only there is really no war to hold them for.
Right now we are debating what's worst building someone up or tearing someone down. I am of the opinion that the latter is much worst especially when many of the republicans that are tearing him down and criticizing the Obama administration for doing the prisoner exchange were the same ones who persistently talked and tweeted about wanting bergdahl to be returned home.
Capitalist concept of supply and demand.
I don't care about the politics. I voted for Obama. Bringing back Bergdahl is good, but not announcing to the world that we will now start negotiating with terrorists. It's dangerous, stupid, and undermines years of effort to stand by our principles. Obama should be criticized for it and not just for some lame political agenda, but because he deserves to be.
It's not always just about democrats vs. republicans, though I think many people here think just that.
rudieboy77
Member
Yeah I would say that is a teaching moment. People should learn how the Republicans really feel about the military from this, but I doubt they will.
It's not about democrats v republicans, it about bringing a POW home.
thezerofire
Banned
The Taliban has never been officially declared a terrorist organization by the US iirc
and come on, the US has a really poor history of "not negotiating with terrorists"
The US has been negotiating with terrorist for decades. This is nothing new. And second these 5 were not going to be held in prison forever. They were eventually going to be released some day. Either do a prisoner swap now or release them eventually for nothing in return.
They always have and always will negotiate with terrorists as long as it suits their interest.
Politics have no morals or priniciples.
Has this been posted yet:
Fox News: 'Secret Documents' Claim Bergdahl Became A 'Warrior' For Islam
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/fox-news-bergdahl-converted-to-islam
Fox News: 'Secret Documents' Claim Bergdahl Became A 'Warrior' For Islam
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/fox-news-bergdahl-converted-to-islam
Technosteve
Banned
Stockholm syndrome?
speculawyer
Member
This might be my favorite so far. Does 180º in less than a month.
This is why people just assume they are racist. They take completely illogical contradictory positions such that you are left looking around for some other reason that explains such crazy behavior. What they think about the issue clearly doesn't matter . . . it is just however they can hate Obama. Thus . . . perhaps they are racist.
PhoenixDark
Banned
What the fuck does that mean? An eye witness came to Fox News, wrote down what he saw, and Fox News declared it a "document?" That sounds deceptive as hell.
That's some rock solid journalism right here.
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
I missed the Hannity 'Muslim victory cry' thing until now. Even for the right wing, the smear campaign against this guy and his family is vile.
http://mediamatters.org/mobile/vide...ushes-claim-that-bob-bergdahl-made-a-m/199610
http://mediamatters.org/mobile/vide...ushes-claim-that-bob-bergdahl-made-a-m/199610
Sounds like a stint at GB.
That became obvious once Obama used a Republican Health Care plan for his health reform; and suddenly Republicans didn't like it anymore.
benjipwns
Banned
Intelligence field offices do a lot of what's basically canvassing of locals who will tell them what they want to hear or stories when they've imbibed way too much or how their neighbor who fenced in their goats is harboring Osama bin Laden and so on. I'd imagine that what Fox has is the report the field office or agent sent in that has all the bullshit stories of the week they gathered. They know almost all of it is probably bullshit but you record it and send it in anyway because sometimes there's something there.
Eyewitness testimony is notoriously terrible anyway but if you told me this was reported to the CIA by some random goat farmer it'd be believable and also possible it's both true in some ways and bullshit in others. But unless it was totally plausible to the analysts they'd be the only documents it'd probably ever be mentioned in.
Source: Westen, Michael. Burn Notice. 2006.
Eyewitness testimony is notoriously terrible anyway but if you told me this was reported to the CIA by some random goat farmer it'd be believable and also possible it's both true in some ways and bullshit in others. But unless it was totally plausible to the analysts they'd be the only documents it'd probably ever be mentioned in.
Source: Westen, Michael. Burn Notice. 2006.
I always get a kick out of this talking point.
Isn't that the guy who was under surveillance by the justice department, because he published insider-info?
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Yah, but everything changes when Obama does it. Hell he can adopt Republican policy and they would reject it and call it Socialistic or Anti-American/whatever.
Ol No Bones
Banned
Ok the people accusing him of desertion are the guys who served with him. The guy walked his post for whatever reason and people died to try and find him. The events surrounding this guy are pretty odd to say the least. I think it is a fair criticism to point out that releasing dangerous enemies before hostilities are over is not very prudent. People died because this guy walked off (if that is indeed the case).
Can someone explain to me why this is so played out on the news? I have zero knowledge of what this guy has done, but places like Fox have been calling him a traitor. As I understand, they're saying that because he possibly gave info out under torture? If so, that's super bs for people to say that.
Punchy4486
Banned
This is his point. If that's true, the guy is a scumbag. But we still should bring him home and then investigate. If he's guilty, we can punish him appropriately and our enemies won't be able to brag about it or publicize his death in their care (or vilify us for not doing anything). If he's innocent, then we just saved an american soldier.
I don't necessarily approve of how we got him back, but it is a good thing that we got him back.
Its because there are allegations he was a deserter I think.
benjipwns
Banned
24 hours to fill.
Ah, ok, that'd make sense. Guess we'll see, then.
Does being a deserter somehow make him less deserving of being rescued?
Velcro Fly
Member
It makes me wonder why there is a Rose Garden ceremony and why Susan Rice gets on TV and proclaims that he served with honor and distinction. He was promoted twice while in captivity. If there's even a question, why have all of this stuff? The smear campaign is deplorable. Saying he or his father are working with or are terrorists is unbelievable. But I am skeptical about how he managed to get captured and if he was in fact in the process of leaving. I don't know but I want to know.
But no, he should have been rescued because he's still an American.
I would think it diminishes it some, yes, especially if what his former squadmates says is actually true (who knows, the pentagon would never admit to it one way or the other). Add in the fact that the Taliban is getting 5 ranking members back and that America has very publically rewarded the Taliban for grabbing a hostage, the outrage is pretty understandable and not just "lol Fox News, republicans, black president, something"
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
That is why this crap is always so funny. People always say arm the rebels, do this, do that. Where do you think those weapons end up later on? These aren't lawbringers that only work in the hands of 'good rebels', those weapons always find their way into the hands of tomorrows terrorists.
It doesn't really matter if he deserted or not, we still bring him home. It isn't that difficult. Charge him with desertion after the fact if you want, but you still bring him home.
So you wouldn't have brought him home?
Did Republicans raise this much of a stink over the 500+ detainees released/transferred when Bush was President? Asking because I don't remember.
Deified Data
Banned
Of course it does. Doesn't mean he shouldn't have been rescued, though.
benjipwns
Banned
Even if you desert your well being is still the responsibility of the military, especially if you do it in a foreign country.
Now some people desert and make it plain they don't want to be "rescued" like some of the Korean War/DMZ deserters did and that effectively waives the military's responsibility. Though they still attempt to keep tabs on them for not just punishment reasons.
In this case, the assumption was that he initially just deserted to get away and had some bad luck in getting captured. Not that he ran off to live with the Taliban.
Making a trade or rescue attempt or what have you obviously depends on the situation and is a separate issue.
Now some people desert and make it plain they don't want to be "rescued" like some of the Korean War/DMZ deserters did and that effectively waives the military's responsibility. Though they still attempt to keep tabs on them for not just punishment reasons.
In this case, the assumption was that he initially just deserted to get away and had some bad luck in getting captured. Not that he ran off to live with the Taliban.
Making a trade or rescue attempt or what have you obviously depends on the situation and is a separate issue.
speculawyer
Member
The GOP reaction is making me feel like we got a bad deal.
We should have traded 75 prisoners at Gitmo for him and thus emptied that place out more.
We should have traded 75 prisoners at Gitmo for him and thus emptied that place out more.
speculawyer
Member
No. We are not assuming that.
Not much to discuss on that though. Let the military justice system handle it.
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