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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza

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What about the Egyptian negotiated ceasefire?
Over the past week, both Hamas and Israel bellowed threats but signaled restraint; Israel's military said that "quiet will be answered with quiet," while Gaza rocket fire remained mainly concentrated along the border rather than in larger, more far-flung Israeli cities. Egyptian mediators were reportedly close to securing a cease-fire between the two sides.
[...]
Egyptian mediators have not given up on negotiating a cease-fire, and elements of Hamas are reportedly still interested. A senior Israeli official was quoted by the liberal Haaretz newspaper as saying that a dispute between Hamas’s political and military wings was to blame for the escalation.
[...]
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Midd...bility-for-today-s-spike-in-rocket-fire-video

The dudes shooting rockets brought this on themselves. Who are the dumb fucks doing this, do they not realize they invite being steamrolled and hurting their cause in the long run?
 
So rather than come to the meeting table and discuss peace, they shot 6,000 rockets at the people of Sderot and kidnapped soldiers?

Doesn't sound right to me.

That word right there is the sticking point mate. For Israel does NOT want peace. It is an irrefutable proof if looking at the actions of the state and even in it's inactions (when dealing with settlers for example)

This article by Gideon Levy, writing for Hareetz explains it very well:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601112

Israel does not want peace
Rejectionism is embedded in Israel's most primal beliefs. There, at the deepest level, lies the concept that this land is destined for the Jews alone.

Israel does not want peace. There is nothing I have ever written that I would be happier to be proved wrong about. But the evidence is piling up. In fact, it can be said that Israel has never wanted peace – a just peace, that is, one based on a just compromise for both sides. It’s true that the routine greeting in Hebrew is Shalom (peace) – shalom when one leaves and shalom when one arrives. And, at the drop of a hat, almost every Israeli will say he wants peace, of course he does. But he’s not referring to the kind of peace that will bring about the justice without which there is no peace and there will be no peace. Israelis want peace, not justice, certainly not anything based on universal values. Thus, “Peace, peace, when there is no peace.” Not only is there no peace: In recent years, Israel has moved away from even the aspiration to make peace. It has despaired utterly of it. Peace has disappeared from the Israeli agenda, its place taken by the collective anxieties that are systematically implanted, and by personal, private matters that now take precedence over all else.

The Israeli longing for peace seemingly died about a decade ago, after the failure of the Camp David summit in 2000, the dissemination of the lie that there is no Palestinian partner for peace, and, of course, the horrific blood-soaked period of the second intifada. But the truth is that even before that, Israel never really wanted peace. Israel has never, not for a minute, treated the Palestinians as human beings with equal rights. It has never viewed their distress as understandable human and national distress.

The Israeli peace camp, too – if ever there was such a thing – also died a lingering death amid the harrowing scenes of the second intifada and the no-partner lie. All that remained were a handful of organizations that were as determined and devoted as they were ineffectual in the face of the delegitimization campaigns mounted against them. Israel, therefore, was left with its rejectionist stance.

The single most overwhelming item of evidence of Israel’s rejection of peace is, of course, the settlements project. From the dawn of its existence, there has never been a more reliable or more precise litmus test for Israel’s true intentions than this particular enterprise. In plain words: The builders of settlements want to consolidate the occupation, and those who want to consolidate the occupation do not want peace. That’s the whole story in a nutshell.

On the assumption that Israel’s decisions are rational, it is impossible to accept construction in the territories and the aspiration to peace as mutually coexisting. Every act of building in the settlements, every mobile home and every balcony, conveys rejection. If Israel had wanted to achieve peace through the Oslo Accords, it would at least have stopped the construction in the settlements at its own initiative. That this did not happen proves that Oslo was fraudulent, or at best the chronicle of a failure foretold. If Israel had wanted to achieve peace at Taba, at Camp David, at Sharm el-Sheikh, in Washington or in Jerusalem, its first move should have been to end all construction in the territories. Unconditionally. Without a quid pro quo. The fact that Israel did not is proof that it did not want a just peace.

But the settlements were only a touchstone of Israel’s intentions. Its rejectionism is embedded far more deeply – in its DNA, its bloodstream, its raison d’être, its most primal beliefs. There, at the deepest level, lies the concept that this land is destined for the Jews alone. There, at the deepest level, is entrenched the value of “am sgula” – God’s “treasured people” – and “God chose us.” In practice, this is translated to mean that, in this land, Jews are allowed to do what is forbidden to others. That is the point of departure, and there is no way to get from there to a just peace. There is no way to reach a just peace when the name of the game is the dehumanization of the Palestinians. No way to achieve peace when the demonization of the Palestinians is hammered into people’s heads day after day. Those who are convinced that every Palestinian is a suspicious person and that every Palestinian wants “to throw the Jews into the sea” will never make peace with the Palestinians. Most Israelis are convinced of the truth of both those statements.

In the past decade, the two peoples have been separated from each another. The average young Israeli will never meet his Palestinian peer, other than during his army service (and then only if he does his service in the territories). Nor will the average young Palestinian ever meet an Israeli his own age, other than the soldier who huffs and puffs at him at the checkpoint, or invades his home in the middle of the night, or in the person of the settler who usurps his land or torches his groves.

Consequently, the only encounter between the two people is between the occupiers, who are armed and violent, and the occupied, who are despairing and also turn to violence. Gone are the days when Palestinians worked in Israel and Israelis shopped in Palestine. Gone is the period of the half-normal and quarter-equal relations that existed for a few decades between the two peoples that share the same piece of territory. It is very easy, in this state of affairs, to incite and inflame the two peoples against one another, to spread fears and to instill new hatreds on top of those that already exist. This, too, is a sure recipe for non-peace.

So it was that a new Israeli yearning sprang up: the desire for separation: “They will be there and we will be here (and also there).” At a time when the majority of Palestinians – an assessment I allow myself to make after decades of covering the territories – still want coexistence, even if less and less, most Israelis want disengagement and separation, but without paying the price. The two-state vision has gained widespread adherence, but without any intention to implement it in practice. Most Israelis are in favor, but not now and maybe not even here. They have been trained to believe that there is no partner for peace – a Palestinian partner, that is – but that there is an Israeli partner.

Unfortunately, the truth is almost the reverse. The Palestinian non-partners no longer have any chance to prove that they are partners; the Israeli non-partners are convinced that they are interlocutors. So began the process in which Israeli conditions, obstacles and difficulties were heaped up, one more milestone in Israeli rejectionism. First came the demand for a cessation of terrorism; then the demand for a change of leadership (Yasser Arafat as a stumbling block); and after that Hamas became the hurdle. Now it’s the Palestinians’ refusal to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Israel considers every step it takes – from mass political arrests to building in the territories – to be legitimate, whereas every Palestinian move is “unilateral.”

The only country on the planet with no borders is so far unwilling to delineate even the compromise borders it is ready to be satisfied with. Israel has not internalized the fact that, for the Palestinians, the borders of 1967 are the mother of all compromises, the red line of justice (or relative justice). For the Israelis, they are “suicide borders.” This is why the preservation of the status quo has become the true Israeli aim, the primary goal of Israeli policy, almost its be-all and end-all. The problem is that the existing situation cannot last forever. Historically, few nations have ever agreed to live under occupation without resistance. And the international community, too, is one day apt to utter a firm pronouncement on this state of affairs, with accompanying punitive measures. It follows that the Israeli goal is unrealistic.

Disconnected from reality, the majority of Israelis pursue their regular way of life. In their mind’s eye the world is always against them, and the areas of occupation on their doorstep are beyond their realm of interest. Anyone who dares criticize the occupation policy is branded an anti-Semite, every act of resistance is perceived as an existential threat. All international opposition to the occupation is read as the “delegitimizing” of Israel and as a provocation to the country’s very existence. The world’s seven billion people – most of whom are against the occupation – are wrong, and six million Israeli Jews – most of whom support the occupation – are right. That’s the reality in the eyes of the average Israeli.

Add to this the repression, the concealment and the obfuscation, and you have another explanation for the rejectionism: Why should anyone strive for peace as long as life in Israel is good, calm prevails and the reality is concealed? The only way the besieged Gaza Strip can remind people of its existence is by firing rockets, and the West Bank only gets onto the agenda these days when blood is shed there. Similarly, the viewpoint of the international community is only taken into account when it tries to impose boycotts and sanctions, which in their turn immediately generate a campaign of self-victimization studded with blunt – and at times also impertinent – historical accusations.

This, then, is the gloomy picture. It contains not a ray of hope. The change will not happen on its own, from within Israeli society, as long as that society continues to behave as it does. The Palestinians have made more than one mistake, but their mistakes are marginal. Basic justice is on their side, and basic rejectionism is the Israelis’ purview. The Israelis want occupation, not peace.

I only hope I am wrong.

This right here, this encapsulates the problem more clearly than anything else:

"In plain words: The builders of settlements want to consolidate the occupation, and those who want to consolidate the occupation do not want peace. That’s the whole story in a nutshell.

On the assumption that Israel’s decisions are rational, it is impossible to accept construction in the territories and the aspiration to peace as mutually coexisting. Every act of building in the settlements, every mobile home and every balcony, conveys rejection."


EDIT: And I just realized I bolded most of the article, just read the whole damn thing!
 
Anybody have a timeline of what's gone down between Israel and Palestine so far?

I've heard about a missing teen, three Palestinian teenagers killed, the one Palestinian American beat up, rocket fire from Gaza, and now this.
 

JordanN

Banned
nib95 said:
How are they supposed to?
Don't Palestinians have cellphones? Or the internet? I'm pretty sure they could just contact the Knesset (Israeli parliament) and say "we want to discuss peace with you".

nib95 said:
There has never been a genuine desire for a peace plan from Israel

If that was true, why is the Sinai no longer Israel's? They were fine giving that back to Egypt and never asked backed for it since. Many Israeli politicians have been open to forms of peace, no matter how extreme.
For example, the Lieberman plan.

nib95 said:
And why would they have it any other way?
Because people grow tired of war and it makes you look bad? Look at Vietnam. The U.S had to eventually abandon it due to public pressure. Even the Iraq War was met with tons of internal resistance.
 
Don't Palestinians have cellphones? Or the internet? I'm pretty sure they could just contact the Knesset (Israeli parliament) and say "we want to discuss peace with you".

You're kidding right ?

What he is saying is not how they are physically going to do it but as too how they are going achieve it when Israel clearly are not looking for it [peace]!

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601112

In plain words: The builders of settlements want to consolidate the occupation, and those who want to consolidate the occupation do not want peace. That’s the whole story in a nutshell.[/B]

On the assumption that Israel’s decisions are rational, it is impossible to accept construction in the territories and the aspiration to peace as mutually coexisting. Every act of building in the settlements, every mobile home and every balcony, conveys rejection.

The Israeli governments handling of settlements show this line of thought perfectly. There is no 'unwilling palestinian partner' who is making it all impossible, the Israeli state are not searching for any palestinian partners, in their minds Israel, the whole of it, belongs to the jews.
 
Israelis want peace. Palestinians want peace. Their rulers just have incompatible ideas about what that peace should look like.

I can't see this round of escalation ending any other way to the last - lots of death and blaming followed by a temporary lull in rocket firing until the next wave. On and on the cycle of hatred goes.
 

nib95

Banned
That word right there is the sticking point mate. For Israel does NOT want peace. It is an irrefutable proof if looking at the actions of the state and even in it's inactions (when dealing with settlers for example)

This article by Gideon Levy, writing for Hareetz explains it very well:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601112



This right here, this encapsulates the problem more clearly than anything else:

"In plain words: The builders of settlements want to consolidate the occupation, and those who want to consolidate the occupation do not want peace. That’s the whole story in a nutshell.

On the assumption that Israel’s decisions are rational, it is impossible to accept construction in the territories and the aspiration to peace as mutually coexisting. Every act of building in the settlements, every mobile home and every balcony, conveys rejection."


EDIT: And I just realized I bolded most of the article, just read the whole damn thing!

Fantastic article, covers so many common sense points, that any rationale person should have already coined on to.

Essentially the bolded above is what it bolds down to. How can there be peace, when Israel's ideal of peace, even when there is a complete ceasefire on both sides, is the continued expansion of illegal settlements, and the consistent displacement of hundreds more Palestinian's? We're not even talking about the current settlements which are a plenty, illegal and ought to be dissolved, but new one's that Israel is continuously proposing or planning for, week in, week out, irrespective of anything else, and has done for countless years.
 
Don't Palestinians have cellphones? Or the internet? I'm pretty sure they could just contact the Knesset (Israeli parliament) and say "we want to discuss peace with you".
[...]
That would be nice. Most recently the Palestinian Authority was rejected because it didn't represent the Palestinians as a whole, then Hamas signed on (even was willing to recognize a Israel as a Jewish State) and the negotiations were canceled because the Israelis will not negotiate with terrorists. Contradictory requirements being placed, or at least relatively impossible requirements in the short-term, on the negotiations.
 

nib95

Banned
Because people grow tired of war and it makes you look bad? Look at Vietnam. The U.S had to eventually abandon it due to public pressure. Even the Iraq War was met with tons of internal resistance.

Not when your enemy metaphorically speaking is the equivalent of a fly, and when the result, or reward should I say, of having to deal with such a nuisance, is the ability to continually steal their territory and land, which so many Israeli's feel is their God given right.
 

Dryk

Member
Fantastic article, covers so many common sense points, that any rationale person should have already coined on to.

Essentially the bolded above is what it bolds down to. How can there be peace, when Israel's ideal of peace, even when there is a complete ceasefire on both sides, is the continued expansion of illegal settlements, and the consistent displacement of hundreds more Palestinian's? We're not even talking about the current settlements which are a plenty, illegal and ought to be dissolved, but new one's that Israel is continuously proposing or planning for, week in, week out, irrespective of anything else, and has done for countless years.
It's pretty transparent on their part. But they have the US to shoot down any and all motions from the UN so nothing gets done about it.

There will be peace when the Palestinians are dead and their land is part of Israel I guess
 

JordanN

Banned
The Israeli governments handling of settlements show this line of thought perfectly. There is no 'unwilling palestinian partner' who is making it all impossible, the Israeli state are not searching for any palestinian partners, in their minds Israel, the whole of it, belongs to the jews.

If Israel felt indebted to the settlers, they would have never left Egypt or Gaza.
The settlers will always be at the mercy of Israel when they decide they don't need them anymore.
 
I don't think Hamas and other terror groups in collusion will stop until they have it all. They want Israel gone, and are exploiting their own on top of that.
 

nib95

Banned

That picture about sums it up. Look at the now massive illegal (under international law, and as recognised by the international community) Israeli settlement of Beitar Illit, and all the surrounding settlements. Now look at the dotted line around the settlements, which symbolises they are going to build another massive barrier there, cordoning off yet another big chunk of Palestine to Israel. And Palestinian villages such as Al-Jab'a, Wadi Fukin, Husan and others are still in it!

Then look at all the other blue settlements. It's very meticulous the way they are trying to systematically take over Palestine, spreading almost like an ant farm. It's obviously strategic and very calculated.

New3Outposts.jpg
 
That word right there is the sticking point mate. For Israel does NOT want peace. It is an irrefutable proof if looking at the actions of the state and even in it's inactions (when dealing with settlers for example)

This article by Gideon Levy, writing for Hareetz explains it very well:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-peace-conference/1.601112



This right here, this encapsulates the problem more clearly than anything else:

"In plain words: The builders of settlements want to consolidate the occupation, and those who want to consolidate the occupation do not want peace. That’s the whole story in a nutshell.

On the assumption that Israel’s decisions are rational, it is impossible to accept construction in the territories and the aspiration to peace as mutually coexisting. Every act of building in the settlements, every mobile home and every balcony, conveys rejection."


EDIT: And I just realized I bolded most of the article, just read the whole damn thing!

that article is very useful, if very much putting far to much into peoples mouths and defining peace in a way that camp david wouldn't have been a 'peace' which is ironic since he quotes that as a peace deal.

the bolded is I think subject to vast disagreement though. The first paragraph is true. The settlement builders want the occupation to continue. But while I support a full and complete freeze of settlements the statement "Every act of building in the settlements, every mobile home and every balcony, conveys rejection." is really dubious because any two state solution knows that major settlement blocs will remain. Building in the E1 area and new settlement areas would better fit that.

I also think the article misses a kind of gun the settlers have to the head of Israels government. Not that it doesn't discount political courage solving that. Israels biggest problem was it didn't know what to do with the captured land in 67 and ended up starting the settler project run by crazies which created this monster.

My answer is still the same. I will remove the issues causing them to fire rockets.
so end of Israel, no negotiations, complete evacuation in a few days time and things will stop?
 
If that was true, why is the Sinai no longer Israel's? They were fine giving that back to Egypt and never asked backed for it since. Many Israeli politicians have been open to forms of peace, no matter how extreme.
For example, the Lieberman plan.

Wow how generous of them. Egypt has a strong economy, a strong standing army, and 10x their population. Israel benefits greatly by signing a peace treaty with them - the treaty you linked involves articles explicitly relating to Israel trading for Egyptian oil and generally normalized trading relations. Palestine is an entity that Israel has full and total control over. Palestine has slightly over half of Israel's population. Palestine has split territory, and is further divided up by checkpoints that the Israelis can set up at will. The situations are in no way analogous.

Because people grow tired of war and it makes you look bad? Look at Vietnam. The U.S had to eventually abandon it due to public pressure. Even the Iraq War was met with tons of internal resistance.

Vietnam and Afghanistan were far-away wars for intangible things with no clearly defined goals. It was expensive to maintain forces there, both in terms of lives lost and money spent. Israel encompasses Palestine, Israel does not need to project forces onto another continent to occupy Palestine, and the fact that retaliation against Israel results in civilian losses makes military action against Palestine more popular, not less popular. Israel gets to slowly gobble up more territory, and whenever the Palestinians strike back, it fuels nationalistic fervor in Israel. If you want to compare the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to a US conflict, Afghanistan and Vietnam are terrible analogies. A much better one would be various conflicts between the United States, its settlers, and Native Americans.
 
My answer is still the same. I will remove the issues causing them to fire rockets.
Right of return for all descendants of refugees: national suicide, i.e. the ending of Israel by a means other than annihilation. You would really sacrifice your country to please a genocidal terrorist organisation that objects to the very presence of your people in the region? You don't see why that is ludicrous?

On the other hand, if Hamas wanted a better life for their people and the gradual easing and eventual removal of the blockade, all they would have to do is put down their weapons. It wouldn't solve the problem of settlements across in the West Bank but that is not the cause of their terror, it just provides justification. It's become a cliché but it remains true, if Hamas put down its weapons there would be no blockade and no war in Gaza, if Israel put down its weapons there would be no Israel.
 
How big a moral difference is there between terrorist attacks that deliberately target civilians, and responding to such attacks in a way that doesn't directly target civilians but renders civilian casualties inevitable?
 
How does returning to 67 borders end Israel?

It doesn't, your second post I though you were changing it to mean follow Hamas' demand. When you said this

I will remove the issues causing them to fire rockets.
Because 67 borders isn't going to placate hamas as they currently exist (I believe they will accept that eventually but its not gonna stop them from launching rockets tomorrow.)


But the 67 borders line for line is never going to happen. The major settlements will be annexed

How big a moral difference is there between terrorist attacks that deliberately target civilians, and responding to such attacks in a way that doesn't directly target civilians but renders civilian casualties inevitable?

a question for the ages. the Geneva conventions tend to accept civilian causalities if everything is done to prevent them. That tends to be the real debate. If that is being done in this case.
 
On the other hand, if Hamas wanted a better life for their people and the gradual easing and eventual removal of the blockade, all they would have to do is put down their weapons. It wouldn't solve the problem of settlements across in the West Bank but that is not the cause of their terror, it just provides justification. It's become a cliché but it remains true, if Hamas put down its weapons there would be no blockade and no war in Gaza, if Israel put down its weapons there would be no Israel.

Jesus Christ. You really believe this, don't you? Accept the continued colonization of your land, trust in a right-wing government that's in bed with crazed nationalistic settlers and routinely kills your people, and it'll all work out (if by "work out," you mean be allowed to live on as an impoverished Bantustate at the mercy of your neighbor in a tiny fraction of your historical territory).
 

JordanN

Banned
Wow how generous of them. Egypt has a strong economy, a strong standing army, and 10x their population. Israel benefits greatly by signing a peace treaty with them - the treaty you linked involves articles explicitly relating to Israel trading for Egyptian oil and generally normalized trading relations. Palestine is an entity that Israel has full and total control over. Palestine has slightly over half of Israel's population. Palestine has split territory, and is further divided up by checkpoints that the Israelis can set up at will. The situations are in no way analogous.
The post I quoted said Israel never had a desire for peace yet Egypt contradicts that. It's not like Israel couldn't have made up an excuse to stay there. Remember this was a time when every country around Israel wanted them wiped off the map. Sinai was very strategic.

Gaza is in Palestine but that's no longer there's either.

ThoseDeafMutes said:
Vietnam and Afghanistan were far-away wars for intangible things with no clearly defined goals. It was expensive to maintain forces there, both in terms of lives lost and money spent. Israel encompasses Palestine, Israel does not need to project forces onto another continent to occupy Palestine, and the fact that retaliation against Israel results in civilian losses makes military action against Palestine more popular, not less popular. Israel gets to slowly gobble up more territory, and whenever the Palestinians strike back, it fuels nationalistic fervor in Israel. If you want to compare the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to a US conflict, Afghanistan and Vietnam are terrible analogies. A much better one would be various conflicts between the United States, its settlers, and Native Americans.
You can say the settlements have no end goal either other than just "being there". I can see Israelis getting tired of their tax dollars having to pay for settlements. Especially amongst secular Israelis who don't care for any religious text.
 
I hope to live to see the day that the an Arab state gets its shit together and ends Israel.

This is exactly why Israel has siege mentality. And why Israel distrusts peace makers on Palestinian side. Just like settlements and shifting demands (jewish state) make Palestinians skittish. these statements scare the crap out of a country who fear this is what many people want (and what hamas still at least on paper claims to want)
 
It doesn't, your second post I though you were changing it to mean follow Hamas' demand. When you said this

Because 67 borders isn't going to placate hamas as they currently exist (I believe they will accept that eventually but its not gonna stop them from launching rockets tomorrow.)
Sorry if I was unclear but thats what I meant by E Jerusalem returning to Palestinians. Hamas agreed to recognize Israel for 67 borders which effectively nullifies their charter. We just dont hear about it in our media.
 

devilhawk

Member
My answer is still the same. I will remove the issues causing them to fire rockets.
But you are asking them to give up all their cards for only the promise of peace. Israel honestly wouldn't know what to do with security and peace if it got it. Why hand away their spoils from the last 60 years? Essentially, the rockets are perfect for Israel. They are not dangerous enough to necessitate capitulation but ridiculous enough to warrant a response.
 
Sorry if I was unclear but thats what I meant by E Jerusalem returning to Palestinians. Hamas agreed to recognize Israel for 67 borders which effectively nullifies their charter. We just dont hear about it in our media.

I believe hamas believes that I don't believe they've ever officially stated it.


Things the sides aren't going to get

Palestinian
  • Right of Return beyond symbolic numbers
  • 67 borders (there will be land swaps and palestine wont get 100%)
  • E. Jerusalem. They will get symbolic control over certain areas and large portions of the suburbs in the east but the city will be largely israeli
  • fully milliary rights over their territory.

Israelis
  • All settlements
  • permante israeli security presence in West bank
  • abbas calling them a jewish state
  • all of east jerusalem
 
The post I quoted said Israel never had a desire for peace yet Egypt contradicts that. It's not like Israel couldn't have made up an excuse to stay there. Remember this was a time when every country around Israel wanted them wiped off the map. Sinai was very strategic.

Gaza is in Palestine but that's no longer there's either.


You can say the settlements have no end goal either other than just "being there". I can see Israelis getting tired of their tax dollars having to pay for settlements. Especially amongst secular Israelis who don't care for any religious text.

The settlements do have a very clear goal, both for the government and those who live there. Take a look at a map of the settlements and how they are scattered. They are intentionally planned this way as to make Swiss cheese of the Palestinian territories. How does Palestine declare a state when there are literally holes in its map? answer is that they don't. The settlements are intentionally a point of contention so that no peace can be reached. Eventually, all that land will be Israel. If the last 60 years are any indication, no one is going to make Israel stop. So they won't.
 
Jesus Christ. You really believe this, don't you? Accept the continued colonization of your land, trust in a right-wing government that's in bed with crazed nationalistic settlers and routinely kills your people, and it'll all work out (if by "work out," you mean be allowed to live on as an impoverished Bantustate at the mercy of your neighbor in a tiny fraction of your historical territory).
I believe it because I have actually listened to Hamas. I have read their charter. I have heard their chants of 'from the river to the sea', their promises that no Jew is safe anywhere in the world, their determination that no inch of what they consider to be Muslim land be ruled by Jews. A return to 1967 borders would be DISASTROUS for Hamas and they openly admit that is not their aim.

Fatah, while extremely far from perfect, do want a return to those borders and while they always bring the issue of right of return to the negotiations, there are signs they are willing to compromise somewhat. For Hamas it is all or nothing, no compromises with the 'apes and pigs'.
 

nib95

Banned
Right of return for all descendants or refugees: national suicide, i.e. the ending of Israel by a means other than annihilation. You would really sacrifice your country to please a genocidal terrorist organisation that objects to the very presence of your people in the region? You don't see why that is ludicrous?

On the other hand, if Hamas wanted a better life for their people and the gradual easing and eventual removal of the blockade, all they would have to do is put down their weapons. It wouldn't solve the problem of settlements across in the West Bank but that is not the cause of their terror, it just provides justification. It's become a cliché but it remains true, if Hamas put down its weapons there would be no blockade and no war in Gaza, if Israel put down its weapons there would be no Israel.

This is a naive, illogical and somewhat disingenuous way of looking at things. In this make belief world of yours where Israeli no longer have one of the most powerful armies and defences in the world, you say there would be no Israel at all if Hamas were left to run rife, all the while failing to realise that Palestine IS disappearing off the map as a result of Israel's actions today, as in, right now, and over the last several years, with their aggressive expansion of settlements and continued occupation in Palestinian territories.

Add to that, you do realise that according to UN data, the vast majority of non military or non-combatant violence (to people) and destruction to property or vandalism, isn't actually carried out by Palestinian's, but by Israeli settlers towards Palestinians. And that's with Hamas and the IDF etc, taken completely out of the equation.

You have to consider the kinds of people who would be willing to live on an illegal settlement built on Palestinian land, and surrounded by Palestinian land. These are not usually people who see eye to eye with the plight of Palestinian's, rather they are Jews that feel the land is theirs to own, as ordained by God.
 
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