If there is one thing this whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict will show is that no one in the world cares for the Palestinians.
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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza
- Thread starter RustyNails
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If there is one thing this whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict will show is that no one in the world cares for the Palestinians.
BaronLundi
Member
And again, what does it have to do with French Jews being assaulted in a Synagogue, in the center of Paris, to the cries of "Death to the Jews" ?
Thanks for proving my point.
ProfessorMoran
Member
They need to bunker up and just wait it out until the hostilities stop, they're not in a position to negotiate and after this they might not be for a long time.
There has been serious talks in the past that have broken down for one reason or another, whether it was a fault on the Israeli or Palestinian side. There was some success with the Gaza withdrawal, though that came to and end with Hamas taking power and the subsequent blockade.
As it stands Israel doesn't seem to be willing to end settlements, and the Palestinians refuse to negotiate as a result. International pressure on Israel has not stopped the settlements. So the Palestinians have a few choices: refuse to negotiate with Israel (due to settlements) and keep the current situation which is leading to less and less land for the Palestinians, continue the resistance (which only leads to Palestinian death and destruction), or just concede and accept any form of borders.
ProfessorMoran
Member
The Palestinians don't actually have any choice at this point other than the last one, Hamas can continue to pester Israel with rockets and provoke more shelling from the IDF at the cost of more Palestinian lives, Palestinian support of Hamas doesn't make sense anymore.
It's a sad situation for these poor people but it's a reality that Palestinians will have to accept, that or leave Palestine and flood the borders of their Arab neighbors and see how they really feel about helping Palestinians out.
I'm still wondering why an assault on Jews in Paris is relevant when talking about military action resulting in 100+ deaths in Palestine?
What happened in Paris is antisemitism and abhorrent.
What happens in Palestine is war crimes.
zero shift
Banned
I'm referring to the people bringing up the events in France.
RustyNails
Member
Sorry, I'm not going to agree to disagree on provable absurditities. Do you believe that Israel does not know that there are women and children in a building at the time of strike? Also pretty laughable to say life under the occupation aint so bad. I mean, as long as we continue to ignore the settlements and Palestinian homes and farms being razed to the ground for more settler scum. As long as we choose to ignore their basic human rights and freedom. Life under occupation is not so bad!
ProfessorMoran
Member
It's doubtful they can target only Hamas specifically with shellings, and I doubt either side wants boots and tanks on the ground. We can keep arguing the morality of this situation or deal with it the best anyone can, it's not optimal for either side but the Palestinians aren't in the position to negotiate, and in a way they're better off that they're dealing with Israel and not Syria or Lebanon. They have got to stop supporting Hamas, it will only lead to their ruin.
phalestine
aka iby.h
Are you from Palestina? Was wondering this with your username being Phalestine
Yes, Lived there for seven years (Age 5-12), parents decided to come back to the US since it was getting really dangerous. Fortunately I had a second option, many families don't; which just breaks my heart.
Sirpopopop
Member
It's relevant because it's used as justification for treating Jewish people like shit.
I think you may find that Palestinians in the occupied territories have it a bit rough at the moment, maybe we could keep this thread about that rather than all the anti Semitism in the world and about how bad the Jewish (as opposed to specifically Israeli) people have it? Maybe?
Or you could go make a thread about anti Semitism in the world if you want to discuss it in a general, global, sense.
IIRC, the leaders of the United States, Canada, the UK and France have condemned Hamas and defended Israel's right to defend itself.
I thought I read that Germany and Russia also condemned Hamas and supported Israel.
It happened in a rally that was specifically against Israel's offensive in Gaza.
It doesn't suddenly become irrelevant just because it took a turn that makes the protesters look bad.
3amdillah. It's interesting to get a new pov from someone who has actually lived in Palestina.
Other countries are condeming Hamas, as such they don't speak about the civilian deaths (which is what the Dutch PM did). As is mentioned earlier, he dared to state "Israel is not shooting rockets at Gaza". But at this point people should not put any weight into what these leaders say about this conflict, since they are unbiased imo and will only look at this conflict in way that will benefit their agenda and objectives. Fortunately you see more and more people reacting and they are seeing what is actually happening.
Chaplain
Member
Can someone verify (from other sources) that this story is legit or false?
BBC promotes lie that Israel is targeting civilians in Gaza
BBC promotes lie that Israel is targeting civilians in Gaza
Just a guess, but I suppose they expect air strikes which they will use as a recruitment tool.
I know there has been a demonstration in Manchester in the last days at a BBC building against their pro- Israel biased reporting http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-28278951
And a demonstration in London also had thousands of people demonstrating against Israel while at the same time chanting that the BBC should be ashamed of themselves because of biased reporting. http://socialistworker.co.uk/art/38565/Thousands+join+London+demo+for+Palestine
Don't know the story behind that news article you posted, though I would not expect people to go thus far in demonstrations if the BBC was being pro-palestina
Also for PR purposes. Hamas benefits from dead civiliansーespecially childrenーwhich they can film and show to the world as proof that the Israelis are evil. Which is why Hamas urges and sometimes forces civilians to get on rooftops and act as human shields.
The video here shows residents leaving a building after Israel fires a warning shot (known as roof-knocking), and other civilians rushing into the building and climbing onto the roof, so you can't argue that they were just protecting their home as an act of defiance since the actual residents of the building had already evacuated it.
So u are saying it's on Hamas not Israel cuz it's there problem.....
I think you are missing something here; I never said any of this is good, I am speaking what I believe to be realistic possibilities. Economic cooperation is a realistic possibility, while violence tend to only harden both sides of the conflict. Worded my sentence poorly, I meant it is growing wonderfully relative to Gaza despite the disadvantages Israel has on it.
My belief in how to end this conflict is one that would take a longer period of time, but still allow Palestinians their 1967 borders with some parts being gain/lost. The settlements are not legal and hopefully UN will not allow this to be used in negotiations.
You can keep arguing morality, but in the reality we have now, there is no way Israel is going to be sanctioned even without U.S veto. No country in the Security Council is that supportive of the Palestinian plight over Israel. There is no way UN is going to force a Palestinian state without Israel being a part of that decision.
As I said earlier, I do not believe Israel "do not care" for civilian casualties. People make civilian casualties to be easily avoided in war. Israel is still within international laws with most of their aircraft strikes.
1,300 aircraft strikes with 172 total deaths. Yeah, they are totally targeting or have no care in this world for civilians.
EDIT: Know what? How about just go search around for official stances of most of the countries in the world and tell me if you believe the rocket attacks fare better at aiding Palestinians. Most of the ones truly condemning Israel are Islamic states and other such biased countries.
No, but it's pretty conclusive proof that Hamas gives no shit about its own civilians and illustrates why nobody should defend Hamas' actions as a legitimate manifestation of Palestinian resistance. Hamas does nothing but set the Palestinian cause back.
I've lost count of how many strawmen and assumptions I've had to set straight since I started posting in this thread. It's funny how some of you try to pigeonhole everything I say, even the most neutral comments, into the pro-Israel or anti-Israel camp and then basing the rest of your assumptions on that. What is nuance, eh?
Meanwhile, when I do make clear what my stance on a certain facet of the conflict is, nobody bothers to keep going down that line of discussion or refute what I say.
You are using these videos as a source to make such disgusting claims? I'm certain Hamas has similar videos of the IDF that puts them in a good daylight as this does for the IDF, it's called propaganda.
How you are still trying to make the point that the IDF protects or avoids civilians deaths with the death toll already rising above 100 is still astonishing to me. Time for a reality check i would say.
Conclusive proof? I call it propaganda, based on the civilians and mostly children that have died in the past wek
Not saying that Hamas does give a shit about Palestinians in general, but this logic is extremely absurd.
By the same logic, the Israeli government does not give a shit about it's own citizens because they invite Hamas rocket attacks by continuing settlement activity and oppressing Palestinians.
Sirpopopop
Member
Or how about I can respond to a question raised by a poster in this thread that's still fairly on topic about an issue that's popped up as a response to the present escalation?
Calling something propaganda doesn't automatically disprove it.
Not once did I make that argument. I'm getting tired of words being put in my mouth.
The only point I'm trying to make with this line of reasoning is that Hamas is also worthy of condemnation. I've seen people try to rationalize Hamas' actions as a legitimate manifestation of Palestinian resistance and that is downright disgusting. Hamas is as much a threat to Israel as to the Palestinians. You cannot conflate Hamas' goals with that of the Palestinians because Hamas ultimate goal is the dismantlement of Israel as a State. Excusing Hamas' behavior does a disservice to the Palestinian cause.
Israel keep hitting building full of family cuz one of them is member of Hamas and some time they just take the whole building down cuz fuk it why not.... who can condom them and say why are u targeting these building if non are firing Rocket from it.....
I am not... if these ppl are trying to make shield for what ever reason... the other party should stop attacking these site if they do care about human life more than Hamas dose as they keep saying not bombing and put the blame on Hamas
This assumes that Hamas' rockets are a response to Israeli oppression. Hamas' ultimate goal is the dismantlement of the State of Israel and the creation of an Islamic State in its place. It is literally in their Charter. You cannot conclusively say that Hamas would stop shooting rockets into Israel if Israel stopped oppressing Palestinians because their ultimate goal still wouldn't have been satisfied.
Neither does calling a video from live leaks of all places "conclusive proof"
Nobody is trying to make Hamas look blame free. Just getting a message across to people that act like only Hamas is too blame and Israel is not killing these civilians.
Also when I think of the goals that Hamas has, I think of the liberation of Palestina from occupation before thinking about the annihilation of Israel that they might want.
Hamas is not a foreing terrorist group that entered Palestina with the goal of fighting Israel. These are palestinian people that joined this group in order to fight their oppression of Israel. So no, I don't think the goals of the Palestinian people and Hamas are that different. Again, i'm not giving Hamas a free pass in the actions that they take.
How about you have a look at this and read it trough
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
That's the point: Either to protect its own weapons or garner world sympathy, Hamas is forcing these people to act as human shields.
It's not about condoning Israeli airstrikes, it's about condemning Hamas' behavior.
RustyNails
Member
I feel like we repeat this fact every other page.
BaronLundi
Member
How about we keep discussing all relevant subjects? Unless of course you think that Palestinians having it rough (which is an understatement) is reason enough to put aside any discussion about violence perpetrated against Jews in the name of said Palestinians (who by and large probably aren't asking for anything of the sort).
Because maybe the struggle against Israel and the resurgence of violent and uninhibited antisemitism are related contrary to what is often claimed around here. Maybe?
Do you believe that Hamas has been for the greater good of the Palestinian people or to their detriment?
The video was released by the IDF. You can say they are biased, but if there's one party that's sure to have video footage of what goes on in the Gaza Strip, it's the IDF.
And it's not exactly a secret that Hamas uses human shields. I suppose here's a less biased source, if that's somehow news to you.
And Hamas views the killing of civilians and acts of terrorism as legitimate actions towards its end-goal. And I do not agree that the ends justify the means.
Hmm
I give you a whole article that shows your claim about their current main goal is false and the only thing you pick out is "cannot be changed for internal reasons"
That's trully amazing
It's not inconceivable that Hamas' new-found, superficial pragmatism is only a front to look better in the eyes of the international community and that their actual goals remain unchanged. Unless you think 'internal reasons' can just be explained away easily?
I think that however I explain it and however much sources i give you, your opinion won't even change. So I don't think i'll even bother at this point.
So if Hamas states something it's superficial and "a front", but when the IDF claims they are looking out for the palestinian civilians while actually killing hundreds of them it's not, right?
If Hamas had the opportunity to wipe Israel off the map they wouldn't hesitate. This "change of heart" is a front. The sad part of this is that Hamas doesn't realize they are being used as a proxy in Iran's cold war with Israel/USA. The Iranian government couldn't care how many Hamas members or Palestinian civilians die, but are more than happy to provide weapons so they can continue their "fight".
Dude Abides
Banned
Even when Hamas does indicate it's willing to deal, it's just a front as far as hardcore Israeli nationalists are concerned. And when the PA plays nice, settlement construction continues unabated. So what's the point in compromise? May as well just let the rockets fly since nothing will ever be good enough for Israel and its fans.
Messofanego
Banned
Gaza offensive: What's different this time?
I don't know why I'm surprised Obama repeated the "Israel has a right to defend" (their illegal settlements) rhetoric over all these years when you shoot this many rockets at the prison that is Gaza and don't expect a salvo back. It really is just escalation. Israel acts with impunity because they know they can get away with it, while most countries are complicit with the war crimes, apartheid, and breaking of human rights. One of the ways is for the international community to boycott/arms embargo/sanctions and until that happens, there won't be a non-violent "solution".
I don't know why I'm surprised Obama repeated the "Israel has a right to defend" (their illegal settlements) rhetoric over all these years when you shoot this many rockets at the prison that is Gaza and don't expect a salvo back. It really is just escalation. Israel acts with impunity because they know they can get away with it, while most countries are complicit with the war crimes, apartheid, and breaking of human rights. One of the ways is for the international community to boycott/arms embargo/sanctions and until that happens, there won't be a non-violent "solution".
m_shortpants
Member
"No country would tolerate rocket attacks.
Except Pakistan and Yemen. They're cool with it."
Except Pakistan and Yemen. They're cool with it."
Bel_Air_Jeff
Banned
I don't quite understand the obsession of victimizing the Palestinians when Hamas has constantly shot thousands of missiles into Israel for years with Israel simply turning the other cheek. Israel has offered towards peace many times and was only met with rejection from Palestine.
Hamas should spend their money on trying to protect their civilians rather that be so focused on destroying the only Jewish state in the world.
The anti-israel protests, honestly, comes off to me as antisemitism.
Hamas should spend their money on trying to protect their civilians rather that be so focused on destroying the only Jewish state in the world.
The anti-israel protests, honestly, comes off to me as antisemitism.
Actually all of Israel's allies are against the settlements, though they don't really do anything to stop them. There are no settlements in Gaza.
m_shortpants
Member
I don't understand the obsession of victimizing Israel when they've maintained a brutal seige on Gaza and the occupied territories for years, denying human rights to millions of people and building settlements on stolen land which is illegal under international law. The West Bank in particular closely resembles an apartheid state. How the fuck is Israel pushing for peace while building settlements?
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
The fact that there is basically zero trust by Israel is one of the sadder aspects of this conflict.
And this is one of the uglier aspects of it.
The blockade on Gaza only came into affect after Hamas took control of Gaza. Israel views Hamas as a terrorist organisation and as such feared that weapons would be funneled into Gaza. Turns out their fears were validated.
The West Bank is a different kettle of fish and Israel should (but won't) dismantle and withdraw it's settlements.
m_shortpants
Member
...and prior to that Gaza was under Israeli control. What's your point? They went from being controlled and occupied by Israel, to being sieged by Israel.
Bel_Air_Jeff
Banned
Regardless of how you look at it. Both parties have done a lot wrong. More so Hamas and their supporters... Hamas' actions has created a rhetoric that the Palestinians are hateful and want to simply murder all the jews... It's really quite sad. I hope this can come to an agreement soon, but both parties are so stubborn.
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