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[TrafalgarLaw]

That's not revenge. Hamas starts wars, they endanger the Palestinians.

Israel retaliating is them defending themselves.

By wiping entire neighbourhood blocks off the map? I think we can all agree that this is purely a revenge bombardment.

 

[JordanN]

By wiping entire neighbourhood blocks off the map? I think we can all agree that this is purely a revenge bombardment.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

But trying to paint Hamas as some kind of heroes when if they really cared, they would never make war an everyday option.

And when they start these wars, the first people they turn on are the Palestinians. Why would anyone store a bomb or assault rifle ammunition in a house? Do you see any professional militaries storing their tanks or fighter jets in a Wal-Mart? But this is what Hamas does.

 

[Terra Firma]

Israel was founded by the Zionist movement in Europe, who moved to Palestine as early as the 1900s (?) and started buying up land. When Britain took over Palestine from Turkey (because of WW1) restrictions were placed on Jews from migrating there leading to radical zionists focusing on the british armies.

That's not defending the radical zionists of course but Israel has a much more varied history before any terrorism. These same terror groups have been a minority and rarely dictated how the state of Israel should be formed. Any remaining terrorist groups were absorbed or are purely outdated.

Uh, no. I would not be saying that they have been "a minority" or having "rarely dictated how the state of Israel should be formed" when one of the Prime Ministers of Israel was a member of these terrorist groups. Their terrorist actions even continued after Israel was formed and had its own borders.

Also, the Haganah, which laid the foundations for the IDF, was also involved in terrorist actions against the British because Britain was restricting immigration to Palestine (which it had every right to do). Initially, it had worked with Britain against Israeli terror groups, like Irgun and Lehi, but as soon as WWII was over, it combined forces and then attacked the British.

No Israeli has bombed Britain in over 50 years. In fact, Israel and Britain actually worked together right after their state was founded (Seuz Crisis).

Are you serious with this point? Israel used terror tactics to get Britain to leave the region. Britain did not have any land to hold on to after 1948 so it is kind of a moot point to say that Israel has not attacked Britain since then. What you say is like saying Hamas not bombing Israel if all the Israelis up and left the region.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

But trying to paint Hamas as some kind of heroes when if they really cared, they would never make war an everyday option.

And when they start these wars, the first people they turn on are the Palestinians. Why would anyone store a bomb or assault rifle ammunition in a house? Do you see any professional militaries storing their tanks or fighter jets in a Wal-Mart? But this is what Hamas does.

You have a tendency of avoiding the point. Who is glorifying Hamas here? And why do you always feel the need to compare the tactics of a so-called democratic state against a noted terror organization?

Hamas do not have access to military equipment provided by the US, unlike Israel. They are not one of those "professional militaries" unlike the IDF. They are desperate and use any tactic they can. They have no war planes. They have no tanks. So I don't see why you keep on saying "But Hamas this" or "But Hamas that" when they are nowhere near on equal grounds as the IDF.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Did Irgun and Lehi blow up any buses or other civilian targets in London ?

 

[TrafalgarLaw]

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

But trying to paint Hamas as some kind of heroes when if they really cared, they would never make war an everyday option.

And when they start these wars, the first people they turn on are the Palestinians. Why would anyone store a bomb or assault rifle ammunition in a house? Do you see any professional militaries storing their tanks or fighter jets in a Wal-Mart? But this is what Hamas does.

Does Hamas have the money to build fancy storage facilities? They have to smuggle ingredients for concrete through tunnels ffs. You are expecting military-grade standards from a group that's very poor to begin with.

I'm not painting Hamas as heroes, a lot of palestinians don't like Hamas as well. I'm just saying they're the only heard voice of the palestinians since every human being in Palestina is just meat waiting to be obliterated.

 

[Terra Firma]

Did Irgun and Lehi blow up any buses or other civilian targets in London ?

Did Hamas kill any Jews in Europe?

Irgun and Lehi killed civilians, including fellow Jews. Irgun and Lehi killed civilian Arabs.

Are you seriously trying to justify the actions of terrorist organizations?

 

[Partial Gamification]

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

But trying to paint Hamas as some kind of heroes when if they really cared, they would never make war an everyday option.

And when they start these wars, the first people they turn on are the Palestinians. Why would anyone store a bomb or assault rifle ammunition in a house? Do you see any professional militaries storing their tanks or fighter jets in a Wal-Mart? But this is what Hamas does.

With all due respect, your questions have been addressed in this thread. There is not a single answer but rather a series of compounding issues that has made the motives and the perceptions complicated.

If it takes two sides to war then your position is that Hamas has forced Israel to act.

"If they really cared." You seem to fail to understand what they care about or are unwilling to try -even if it can be understood that their values are misplaced when it comes to forcing Israel to act. It doesn't make it right, but it doesn't mean that they don't care. It is disturbing to think how the deaths can be used as recruitment and propaganda tools but how far can Israel go before it takes responsibility for those deaths and the occupation in a earnest move toward lasting reconciliation and resolution of this conflict?

 

[Quotient]

Off the top of my head:

1. Continue with current stalemate in the hope the unequal suffering endured by the Palestinians in this conflict will inspire either international pressure to change Israel positions on issues they are firmly fixed to or also to inspire a larger conflict to again seek the World's attention by inviting massive damage and death.

I think this has been tried enough that it is proving to not really be a solution.

2. Give up, unconditional surrender. Let Israel dictate terms for all disputes. Who reigns in all the fighters?

For this to work we need to cut off the supply of weapons to Hamas, but as long as the regimes of Syria, Iran and Egypt are happy to funnel weapons into Gaza, this is going to be a difficult ask.

3. Come up with a solution that is acceptable and fair -decided by a neutral party elected by both negotiation teams. Can the agreement be enforced?

This could work though who would be the impartial party - the UN, neither side trust the UN.

4. Request to be annexed by the United States. This could be something to get the issue in the newscycle and catalyze the conversation toward a lasting resolution, and arguably validate the Palestinian State if the request was addressed (maybe only by Congress/Department of State). If it was annexed then Israel would be attacking the United States and the United States would be responsible for stopping rocket attacks upon its friendly neighbor. Yes, I realize how crazy it is.

This seems the most unlikely and farfetched - both sides want independence and not be he subordinate of the USA. (unless i misread what you are saying)

 

[JordanN]

Uh, no. I would not be saying that they have been "a minority" or having "rarely dictated how the state of Israel should be formed" when one of the Prime Ministers of Israel was a member of these terrorist groups. Their terrorist actions even continued after Israel was formed and had its own borders.

Just looking at Lehi, a lot of their beliefs have nothing to do with modern Israel. Like, they wanted to build a third temple and form an alliance with Russia. That hasn't happened.

I'll have to read up on the Irgun later.

Are you serious with this point? Israel used terror tactics to get Britain to leave the region. Britain did not have any land to hold on to after 1948 so it is kind of a moot point to say that Israel has not attacked Britain since then. What you say is like saying Hamas not bombing Israel if all the Israelis up and left the region.

Hezbollah has attacked Jews/Israelis overseas. Terrorism never has to stop in just one region.

Hamas do not have access to military equipment provided by the US, unlike Israel. They are not one of those "professional militaries" unlike the IDF. They are desperate and use any tactic they can. They have no war planes. They have no tanks. So I don't see why you keep on saying "But Hamas this" or "But Hamas that" when they are nowhere near on equal grounds as the IDF.

So do you acknowledge the stuff they do makes the casualty count higher than it should be and it's not something Israel can always control?

 

[Partial Gamification]

[...]
This seems the most unlikely and farfetched - both sides want independence and not be he subordinate of the USA. (unless i misread what you are saying)

Yes, farfetched. To put-on my imperial business-suit: its not subordination, its incorporation. They could write their own state constitution. There has to be common goals to lay out for all sides, something viable.

 

[TrafalgarLaw]

4. Request to be annexed by the United States. This could be something to get the issue in the newscycle and catalyze the conversation toward a lasting resolution, and arguably validate the Palestinian State if the request was addressed (maybe only by Congress/Department of State). If it was annexed then Israel would be attacking the United States and the United States would be responsible for stopping rocket attacks upon its friendly neighbor. Yes, I realize how crazy it is.

I like this idea a lot but how are we so sure the pro-Israel or zionist lobbies in America will not eventually infiltrate positions of power of an american annex? Whatever would happen, it wouldn't be worse than getting annexed by Israel.

 

[Randomizer]

How anyone but Israelis can defend this is sickening. Their excuse is being warped by lifelong indoctrination and propaganda. Whilst others who have no stake in this cannot even begin to justify why they lend their support to a bunch of war criminals and child murderers.

The death of a handful of Israelis by a minority terrorist group in no way justifies the indiscriminate bombing of any and all Palestinians. The Israeli army is highly trained and outfitted with top of the line equipment they are perfectly capable of preforming raids and investigating these rocket strikes accordingly.

Instead what they have done is declare war on a people with whom the vast majority have absolutely no involvement and are completely innocent. The fact is the rocket strikes will not stop, so they should act in a way that tries to reduces deaths on both sides not act as inhumanly as possible like a psychopath killing and maiming hundreds of innocent people with no justification or remorse.

 

[Quotient]

Yes, farfetched. To put-on my imperial business-suit: its not subordination, its incorporation. They could write their own state constitution. There has to be common goals to lay out for all sides, something viable.

Since we are proposing farfetched ideas, i'll give mine:

Hamas disbands and disarms and hands over all its weapons. Both sides agree to borders, most likely to be dictated by Israel. Israel vows to end settlements. Now since both sides distrust one another, the US with assistance by NATO puts a peacekeeping force in Gaza and the West bank. This peacekeeping force is to prevent further arms from being funneled into Gaza/West Bank and to provide security for the Palestinians.

We all know this won't ever happen.

 

[Terra Firma]

Just looking at Lehi, a lot of their beliefs have nothing to do with modern Israel. Like, they wanted to build a third temple and form an alliance with Russia. That hasn't happened.

I'll have to read up on the Irgun later.

They have achieved more than they could have hoped for. ISIS hopes for a global caliphate but they've already achieved a lot. All these groups have high goals. Even Hamas had hoped to destroy all of Israel, but it has budged on that a lot, even agreeing to recognize Israel as part of a unity government.

Irgun was headed by an Israeli Prime Minister.

Hezbollah has attacked Jews/Israelis overseas. Terrorism never has to stop in just one region.

Hizbullah does not care about Palestine so what does that have to do with anything? Hizbullah is vehemently anti-Sunni. Palestinians are a Sunni majority.

And again, you completely missed the point. Britain gave Israel all it wanted. That's why Britain is not a target. Hizbullah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. have not gotten what they wanted. If Britain was still a player in the conflict, it is a given that Israel would have been attacking it.

So do you acknowledge the stuff they do makes the casualty count higher than it should be and it's not something Israel can always control?

It's not stuff that they merely do, it is stuff that they are forced into doing. Gaza is one of most densely populated regions in the world. Hamas is not a military force, either. So they don't have military compounds or barracks. They don't have vehicles, let alone tanks. If it did have such luxuries, it wouldn't be forced to fight in cities. It would have clearly demarcated regions from where to attack from. But since it does not, it would be completely foolish to do so. After all, it is a resistance group.

What do you think Hamas should do if it wants to engage in a battle with Israel? Walk into an empty field and be blown to smithereens? Hamas believes that what it is doing is better for Palestine in the long run, which is to maintain an armed resistance.

 

[JordanN]

It's not stuff that they merely do, it is stuff that they are forced into doing. Gaza is one of most densely populated regions in the world. Hamas is not a military force, either. So they don't have military compounds or barracks. They don't have vehicles, let alone tanks. If it did have such luxuries, it wouldn't be forced to fight in cities. It would have clearly demarcated regions from where to attack from. But since it does not, it would be completely foolish to do so. After all, it is a resistance group.

No one forces them to place bombs in houses. They should have thought about their resources before going to war with Israel.

What do you think Hamas should do if it wants to engage in a battle with Israel? Walk into an empty field and be blown to smithereens? Hamas believes that what it is doing is better for Palestine in the long run, which is to maintain an armed resistance.

They should do anything that doesn't put civilians at direct risk. But I'm arguing these actions are a reflection of them not truly caring for Palestinians in the grand scheme of things, regardless of what they believe.

That, or their definition of "care" is seriously twisted from an outsiders point of view (and the Palestinians shouldn't ride along with it for said reasons).

 

[Terra Firma]

No one forces them to place bombs in houses. They should have thought about their resources before going to war with Israel.

Where else would they keep their ammunition? They don't have giant underground bunkers to store their weaponry.

They should do anything that doesn't put civilians at direct risk. But I'm arguing these actions are a reflection of them not caring for Palestinians, regardless of what they believe.

Like what?

They obviously do care for Palestinians, otherwise why would they put their own lives at risk? Hamas isn't some foreign, imported group. Hamas members are themselves Palestinians. They have their families living in Gaza.

 

[MisterFalcon]

For this to work we need to cut off the supply of weapons to Hamas, but as long as the regimes of Syria, Iran and Egypt are happy to funnel weapons into Gaza, this is going to be a difficult ask.

Egypt is not sending any weapons to Hamas but their control over the Sinai is quite tenuous. Hundreds of soldiers and cops have died from attacks in the last 12 months and just today eight people were killed in a mortar attack near El Arish.

 

[JordanN]

Where else would they keep their ammunition? They don't have giant underground bunkers to store their weaponry.

I refuse to believe a School or Mosque are forcing them to hide their weapons. They can place ammunition anywhere else. Like a forest or their own headquarters.

Like what?

They obviously do care for Palestinians, otherwise why would they put their own lives at risk? Hamas isn't some foreign, imported group. Hamas members are themselves Palestinians. They have their families living in Gaza.

But they're making them live targets. And instigating pointless wars.

The IDF isn't strapping Israeli civilians to their tanks and proclaiming "see, we care about you! Because we're fighting people who want to harm you!" No, they go at it alone, while keeping their own civillians outside of the warzone.

Why put themselves as risk? They're not doing it for the Palestinians that's for sure.

 

[Chichikov]

No one forces them to place bombs in houses. They should have thought about their resources before going to war with Israel.


They should do anything that doesn't put civilians at direct risk. But I'm arguing these actions are a reflection of them not truly caring for Palestinians in the grand scheme of things, regardless of what they believe.

That, or their definition of "care" is seriously twisted from an outsiders point of view (and the Palestinians shouldn't ride along with it for said reasons).

You expect them to stage themselves in the open so they can get wiped out by the Israeli air force?
Running military operations from within populated areas is a violation of international law, not doubt, but understand that you're ask them to pretty much commit suicide.

Also, this time around Israel is destroying houses of Hamas leaders even those that has no military equipment in them, it's on the record for doing this for punitive reasons.

p.s.
Israel also have military bases in the middle of its most populated cities too.

 

[JordanN]

You expect them to stage themselves in the open so they can get wiped out by the Israeli air force?
Running military operations from within populated areas is a violation of international law, not doubt, but understand that you're ask them to pretty much commit suicide.

Also, this time around Israel is destroying houses of Hamas leaders even those that has no military equipment in them, it's on the record for doing this for punitive reasons.

p.s.
Israel also have military bases in the middle of its most populated cities too.

I'm trying to not give Hamas any legitimacy. Because their cause was already lost when they started a war no one asked for.

So you can see how "Hamas doing this instead of that" still yields the same results to me. They're not justified fighting in the open because it will kill them, but they're not justified in turning Palestinians into human shields either.

"the only winning move is not to play."

 

[theignoramus]

Are we fucking seriously splitting hairs about the moral superiority of one terroristic activity versus another? How ridiculous, how tribal.

 

[Chichikov]

I'm trying to not give Hamas any legitimacy. Because their cause was already lost when they started a war no one asked for.

So you can see how "Hamas doing this instead of that" still yields the same results to me. They're not justified fighting in the open because it will kill them, but they're not justified in turning Palestinians into human shields either.

the only winning move is not to play."

Saying "Hamas started a war" is a very inaccurate framing of the current round of escalation, I'll quote myself from this very thread -

You want to play who started you're going to get to '67 and '48 real quick, and that's not only pointless, but doesn't really help Israel's case.
Both sides tend to pick a random point in time and pretend that's when it all started, nevermind what happened before, it was all peace and awesomeness.
And even if someone would try to play that game (which again, I think misses the real causes of the current round of escalated violence) it's very hard to argue that the Hamas leadership in Gaza started this.
It started either in the murdering of the 3 people in the west bank (might be done by Hamas, good chance that it was, we don't know, but there is zero evidence that it was something planned by the leadership in Gaza as an attempt to escalate the conflict) or by Israel's very harsh punitive response to it.​

Also, regarding the Hamas storing military equipment in civilian houses, there's a quite a bit of historical irony seeing Israel complain about that considering doing the very same thing is a huge part of the Israeli independence ethos.
The bedouins have a saying - the camel can't see its own hump.

 

[JordanN]

You don't have to travel back far. We do know what happened to Gaza post 2005. Despite no Israelis in Gaza, how did we reach climax of Hamas firing rockets into Israel every day?
You can't make this stuff up. Don't forget their acts of kidnapping Gilad Shalit. Hamas brings these wars on themselves.

I would love to be proven wrong, by going into an alternate universe where the Gaza Strip, from 2005 to 2014, made zero attempts at threatening Israel only for Israel to still launch Operation Cast Lead or Protective Edge.

Is there any proof that weapons were actually stored there besides Israel saying so? They might as well double down, and claim Hamas have weapons of mass destruction. I heard that's worked for others in the past.

Israel has photographic evidence. Unless you want to believe Israel put those weapons there or they magically showed up.

 

[Aaron]

I refuse to believe a School or Mosque are forcing them to hide their weapons. They can place ammunition anywhere else. Like a forest or their own headquarters.

Is there any proof that weapons were actually stored there besides Israel saying so? They might as well double down, and claim Hamas have weapons of mass destruction. I heard that's worked for others in the past.

 

[Chichikov]

You don't have to travel back far. We do know what happened to Gaza post 2005. Despite no Israelis in Gaza, how did we reach climax of Hamas firing rockets into Israel every day?
You can't make this stuff up. Don't forget their acts of kidnapping Gilad Shalit. Hamas brings these wars on themselves.

I would love to be proven wrong, by going into an alternate universe where the Gaza Strip, from 2005 to 2014, made zero attempts at threatening Israel only for Israel to still launch Operation Cast Lead or Protective Edge.

Gilad Shalit was a soldier, in a tank, they're not allowed to attack tanks now?
And listen, a naval blockade is generally consider an act of war. Fuck, Israel had a long standing public policy that shutting down the Straits of Tiran (which has much smaller economic impact than the Gaza blockade) is an act of war, and Israel went to war over that.

Also, you can argue about who brings what, but currently, Hamas is willing to talk to Israel and Israel is unwilling to talk to Hamas, so there's that.

 

[RustyNails]

Bold isn't true, if Israel really didn't care, we would of had much more civilian casualties.

This is reality and unfortunately in the real world, might of a group or country still makes them "right" only because the weaker can't do anything about it.The U.N was created to end this, but it is a paper tiger, with all countries willing to veto according to their own interest. Taking sanctions over force. Sure sanctions hurt, but we seen many countries be able to resist sanctions for a long period of time.

Hamas do have every right to distrust and dislike Israel, but it doesn't mean they have the right to fire rockets into Israel.

As I said, the reason I believe Palestinians should be the ones to focus on this is because Israel already have the upper hand, so violence will not work. Economic cooperation can and have worked in the past to ease past tensions between groups and countries. Money rules, the companies that invest and get strong will make sure to put their voice in. This is the only way I see attitudes changing for the better of Palestine.

Bold is completely true. Israel KNOWINGLY dropping bombs on civilian areas. That is a demonstrable fact. You can't kill 80 children in a week and say "Oh well, we sent them warning letters". If Israel cared about civilians, it would abide by international conditions, give up settlement activity and lift the blockade. But Israel cannot function in a state of peace. It can only function in a state of war. There has to be the boogeyman.

As for your second paragraph, I'm sorry but you're saying Might makes Right? If you're going to play that card it proves without a doubt that you argue from a lack of moral fiber. I want to remind you that PLO did in fact agree to Israel's terms and renounced violence after signing the Peace Accord. It formed a government and agreed to abide by all international laws. What did they get in return. More settlements.
This is a graph of settlement constructions only in West Bank:

These are the statistics of settler population:

Now PA must be looking at these graphs and going "We done goofd. Maybe we should'nt have signed that agreement with Israel and continued to behave like terrorist assholes Hamas and shot rockets over Israel..."

Long story short, this is why you do not negotiate with bullies.

 

[RustyNails]

You don't have to travel back far. We do know what happened to Gaza post 2005. Despite no Israelis in Gaza, how did we reach climax of Hamas firing rockets into Israel every day?
You can't make this stuff up. Don't forget their acts of kidnapping Gilad Shalit. Hamas brings these wars on themselves.

I would love to be proven wrong, by going into an alternate universe where the Gaza Strip, from 2005 to 2014, made zero attempts at threatening Israel only for Israel to still launch Operation Cast Lead or Protective Edge.

You are being fed VERY one-sided news of the conflict. Israel and US couldn't bear the thought that Hamas won legislative victory and agreed to move towards peace.

In its election manifesto for the 2006 Palestinian legislative election, Hamas omitted a call for an end to Israel, though it did still call for armed struggle against the occupation.[115][116] Hamas won the 2006 elections, winning 76 of the 132 seats to Fatah's 43.[117] Seen by many as primarily a rejection of the Fatah government's corruption and ineffectiveness, the Hamas victory seemingly had brought to an end 40 years of PLO domination of Palestinian politics.[117][118]

In early February 2006, Hamas offered Israel a 10-year truce "in return for a complete Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories: the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem,"[7] and recognition of Palestinian rights including the "right of return".[119] Mashal added that Hamas was not calling for a final end to armed operations against Israel, and it would not impede other Palestinian groups from carrying out such operations.[120]

After the election, the Quartet on the Middle East (the United States, Russia, the European Union (EU), and the United Nations) stated that assistance to the Palestinian Authority would only continue if Hamas renounced violence, recognized Israel, and accepted previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements, which Hamas refused to do.[121] The Quartet then imposed a freeze on all international aid to the Palestinian territories.[122]

In 2006 after the Gaza election, Hamas leader sent a letter addressed to George W. Bush where he among other things declared that Hamas would accept a state on the 1967 borders including a truce. However, the Bush administration did not reply.[123]

Yes, the militants were firing Qassam rockets, which is wrong and deplorable. Also, Hamas agreed to a ceasefire from 2005:

Hamas had announced a ceasefire in 2005 and until June 10, 2006, Hamas did not take responsibility itself for the firing of ordnance into Israel, but the group's leader had said in February that it did not intend to impede other groups from carrying out "armed resistance" against Israel.[9]

This is the background of Cpl Shalit's capture and the escalation of violence by Israel to Operation Summer Rain

• On June 9, an explosion occurred on a busy Gaza beach, killing eight Palestinian civilians.[14][15][16] Following the blast, an internal Israel Defense Forces (IDF) enquiry was initiated.

• On June 13, Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz and Chief of Staff Dan Halutz appeared alongside IDF General Meir Klifi to announce the findings of the enquiry, stating "The chances that artillery fire hit that area at that time are nil." In further interviews, Klifi theorised that the deaths could have been caused by old ordnance or by a Palestinian planted mine.[16]

• Mark Garlasco, a US-based Human Rights Watch group employee, aired the opinion that the injuries sustained by the Palestinian victims were inconsistent with an explosion from beneath the sand.[16]

• Israel acknowledged that it had been shelling 250m away from the family's location. Palestinians claimed that the explosion was caused by this Israeli shelling.[17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24]

• On June 10, Hamas formally withdrew from its 16-month ceasefire, and began openly taking responsibility for the ongoing Qassam rocket attacks.[25]

• On June 13, Israel killed 11 Palestinians in a missile strike on a van carrying Palestinian militants and rockets in Gaza. Among those killed were nine civilian bystanders. Reuters called this "the deadliest such attack in four years".[18]

• On June 20, Israel killed 3 Palestinian civilians in a missile strike on a car in Gaza's Jabaliya refugee camp.[16][26]

• On June 24, Israeli commandos entered the Gaza Strip and captured Osama and Mustafa Muamar, whom Israel claimed were Hamas militants. Hamas claimed that they were the sons of a Hamas supporter but not Hamas members themselves. It was Israel's first raid into the Strip since its forces pulled out of Gaza in September 2005.[27][28]

• On June 25, armed Palestinians crossed the border from the Gaza Strip into Israel via a makeshift tunnel and attacked an IDF post. During the morning attack, two Palestinian militants and two IDF soldiers were killed and four others wounded. The Palestinians captured Corporal Gilad Shalit, who suffered a broken left hand and a light shoulder wound. Hamas claimed that the attack was carried out in response to June 9 killings, but the IDF concluded that the digging of the tunnel must have taken between 3 and 6 months.[29][30]

 

[JordanN]

Even as read that, I'm still finding things that are suspicious.

Like, it's disappointing if Israel did start the Gaza beach shellings with no threat on sight. But only a few days later, Hamas already had rocket launchers ready?

They also never stopped other Palestinian factions from attacking Israel. A truce would be worthless if they simply passed the responsibility onto someone else.

 

[RustyNails]

Even as read that, I'm still finding things that are suspicious.

Because you are actively reading every post/text/link as "how Israel is PROBABLY in the right here" and searching for confirmation bias.

 

[Chichikov]

Even as read that, I'm still finding things that are suspicious.

Like, it's disappointing if Israel did start the Gaza beach shellings with no threat on sight. But only a few days later, Hamas already had rocket launchers ready?

They also never stopped other Palestinian factions from attacking Israel. A truce would be worthless if they simply passed the responsibility onto someone else.

Let's get real here, it was the publicly stated goal of Israel to topple the Hamas since the moment it got into power.
Now you can argue that it's a worthy goal and it's worth the cost in human lives, but you got to stop acting like isn't Israel is actively engaging in a long campaign against the Hamas, a campaign that started well before the murder of the three teenagers in the west bank.

 

[BaronLundi]

And here we go.

Synagogues attacked in Paris during protest march

In Nice, demonstrators were reported shouting "We are all Mohamed Merah". You know the guy who killed 7 people including 3 kids at a Jewish school in Toulouse.

Today in France, in 2014, there are places where it's just not safe to wear a yarmulke or a star of David. Synagogues were attacked along with "Jewish" stores. But antisemitism and antizionism are not connected in any way, of course.

 

[Yagharek]

The actions of the Israeli government and military are despicable, but attacks against Jewish people and sites in other countries is just dumb.

I just hope no one uses those incidents e.g. in France to justify the barbaric acts against Palestinian civilians.

 

[LNBL]

I'm trying to not give Hamas any legitimacy. Because their cause was already lost when they started a war no one asked for.

So you can see how "Hamas doing this instead of that" still yields the same results to me. They're not justified fighting in the open because it will kill them, but they're not justified in turning Palestinians into human shields either.

"the only winning move is not to play."

Ofcourse they will not fight in the open, wich army or faction would willingly place themselves in such a disadvantage? They are using Guerrilla attacks which is their only chance against this difference in fire power that Israel holds. Do you realize that Hamas is foghting for what the Palestinian people wants? Freedom is what they both want and instead of lying on their backs they are fighting the suppression.

Again you bring up the human shields argument. Have you any proof they are doing that from hospitals? Besides a video from years ago or an IDF statement?

Also Hamas denied any responsibility in the death of these teenagers, how exactly did they start this war that nobody asked for? Was it not Netanyahu that screamed that Hamas is to blame, but we have yet to see any evidence of that and all we get is his word for it. Well I can tell you than I don't trust a thing he says and imo he is a war criminal. Obviously you will not agree with me about Netanyahu since you are only getting positive news about him, but you cannot disagree that the start of this war came from Israel based on empty conclussions.

 

[BaronLundi]

The actions of the Israeli government and military are despicable, but attacks against Jewish people and sites in other countries is just dumb.

I just hope no one uses those incidents e.g. in France to justify the barbaric acts against Palestinian civilians.

When has this ever happened and who in their right mind would give any credit to such a ludicrous claim?

Funny how It works perfectly well the other way around though, eh...

 

[LNBL]

Amazing. Our Dutch prime minister had an interview about the current situation yesterday. He denies any responsibility that Israel has in the deaths of fhe palestinian civilians, claiming "Israel is not shooting rockets at Gaza" also saying the difference in military capabilities abd deaths is not disproportional. He tells the people to look at the facts, yet he fails to explain the current situation as it started and how it is now.

He is a true example for our people, spreading his disgusting propaganda ideas to the rest.

 

[Quotient]

Egypt is not sending any weapons to Hamas but their control over the Sinai is quite tenuous. Hundreds of soldiers and cops have died from attacks in the last 12 months and just today eight people were killed in a mortar attack near El Arish.

You are right, of course the exception was when the Muslim brotherhood was in power in Egypt for that period of a year.

 

[MisterFalcon]

You are right, of course the exception was when the Muslim brotherhood was in power in Egypt for that period of a year.

During that time the most serious attack was carried out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2012_Sinai_attack

 

[Quotient]

Long story short, this is why you do not negotiate with bullies.

Then what should the Palestinians do? It doesn't seem like their armed resistance isn't working.

 

[Yagharek]

When has this ever happened and who in their right mind would give any credit to such a ludicrous claim?

Funny how It works perfectly well the other way around though, eh...

Well Israel seems happy to accept collateral damage and deaths of innocent people near their target sites.

 

[Quotient]

During that time the most serious attack was carried out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_2012_Sinai_attack

I Stand corrected.

 

[phalestine]

Then what should the Palestinians do? It doesn't seem like their armed resistance is working.

That is the question, They've seemed to try it all with the same results. I believe there will be peace in the region only when Israel is serious about it, otherwise we are stuck in this cycle.

 

[Quotient]

That is the question, They've seemed to try it all with the same results. I believe there will be peace in the region only when Israel is serious about it, otherwise we are stuck in this cycle.

Have the Palestinian leadership and factions been serious about it?

 

[phalestine]

Have the Palestinian leadership and factions been serious about it?

Hamas is willing to talk to Israel, while Israel is not willing to talk to Hamas. Fatah and Israel are willing to talk to each other, but the continuous built of settlements show that Israel are not serious about peace. Palestinians are the ones under occupation, Israel has all the power, they are the ones who need to be serious about peace for it to work.

 

[zeroOman]

Hamas is willing to talk to Israel, while Israel is not willing to talk to Hamas. Fatah and Israel are willing to talk to each other, but the continuous built of settlements show that Israel are not serious about peace. Palestinians are the ones under occupation, Israel has all the power, they are the ones who need to be serious about peace for it to work.

That why Abbas stop peace talk with Israel

 

[LNBL]

Hamas is willing to talk to Israel, while Israel is not willing to talk to Hamas. Fatah and Israel are willing to talk to each other, but the continuous built of settlements show that Israel are not serious about peace. Palestinians are the ones under occupation, Israel has all the power, they are the ones who need to be serious about peace for it to work.

Are you from Palestina? Was wondering this with your username being Phalestine

 

[TarNaru33]

Bold is completely true. Israel KNOWINGLY dropping bombs on civilian areas. That is a demonstrable fact. You can't kill 80 children in a week and say "Oh well, we sent them warning letters". If Israel cared about civilians, it would abide by international conditions, give up settlement activity and lift the blockade. But Israel cannot function in a state of peace. It can only function in a state of war. There has to be the boogeyman.

As for your second paragraph, I'm sorry but you're saying Might makes Right? If you're going to play that card it proves without a doubt that you argue from a lack of moral fiber. I want to remind you that PLO did in fact agree to Israel's terms and renounced violence after signing the Peace Accord. It formed a government and agreed to abide by all international laws. What did they get in return. More settlements.
This is a graph of settlement constructions only in West Bank:

I disagree with your first paragraph. We will just have to agree to disagree on that. The carnage when considerations of how many air strikes are done is just not there for me to agree with you assertions.

I never said "might makes right" is a good thing, I said you must be realistic. There are not many times in history when a powerful country aides a bullied country simply due to morality.

Just because I don't argue sensationally, do not mean I don't know the difference between what is right and what isn't.

These are the statistics of settler population:

Now PA must be looking at these graphs and going "We done goofd. Maybe we should'nt have signed that agreement with Israel and continued to behave like terrorist assholes Hamas and shot rockets over Israel..."

Long story short, this is why you do not negotiate with bullies.

The settlements shall continue and this is why the UN should stay firm on how it is illegal and will not be recognized in any form of negotiations.

However, Palestinian livelihood mainly in West Bank have been increasing wonderfully unlike Gaza's. This is a way to peace, by economic cooperation.

All I am here in this thread to say is that Israel isn't "targeting civilians" and Hamas should stop shooting rockets as if it aides Palestinians, because it doesn't.

 

[thehypocrite]

I think what's important is how we can stop this without Israel wiping out Palestine.

 

[zero shift]

I don't understand why people try to list death counts committed by extremist groups when talking about governments.

 

[Lamel]

Are other countries even condemning this?

 

[NEO0MJ]

I don't understand why people try to list death counts committed by extremist groups when talking about governments.

Probably because Hamas govern Gaza.