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[m_shortpants]

So you suggest that not firing rockets does not improve the situation, does firing rockets at Israel like Hamas is doing improving the situation?

No, neither will improve their situation, evidently.

So I'm saying the onus is on Israel to pave a way to peace, as the person I was replying to was suggesting the opposite as if the Palestinians have any bargaining power or anything to concede.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Can someone explain the logic of the policy of using force against Hamas? Hamas was created in response to the occupation. Removing the entity of Hamas doesn't remove the cause; what's to stop another terrorist group being established? Furthermore, the collateral damage is clearly fomenting growing anger and spawning new threats as a result.

You can be the most pro-Israel advocate, but I'm just struggling to understand how the status quo in regards to Hamas is in the best interest of Israel from a security perspective, especially when these bombing campaigns increase the likelihood of a regional war involving Muslim nations.

A child could see the paradox here

 

[m_shortpants]

You are using wikipedia as a source..

And you are using the ADL? You don't think there's any bias at all there?

 

[ProfessorMoran]

The West Bank isn't firing any rockets and they aren't in a much better situation. Yes, they aren't being bombed. But settlement construction continues. So they've tried both options and nothing has worked for them.

It beats being shelled to smithereens. Settlements suck, I agree, but they ain't going to stop, maybe it's as good as it's going to get, but right now their priority must be to stop getting themselves destroyed. It won't matter whether the settlements stop or not if the people are dead.

 

[m_shortpants]

It beats being shelled to smithereens. Settlements suck, I agree, but they ain't going to stop, maybe it's as good as it's going to get, but right now their priority must be to stop getting themselves destroyed. It won't matter whether the settlements stop or not if the people are dead.

So an instant death vs a slow burn. Wow, they have it so good! Those guys in the West Bank should consider themselves lucky to be under occupation! Must be great.

 

[Osahi]

Luckily there were courageous people fighting for the liberation of their country and the protection of the jews. The Nazi Germans used to call them terrorists.

This. I do not approve of hamas actionq of firing rockets into civilian targets (well, at least they don't kill 150+ people, 70% civilians, in a mere week), nor their 'kill al jews' statements', but wether someones a freedom fighter or a terrorist all depends on which side he's on and who labels.

Israel is defacto an apartheid state, and an occupying force that forces milions of people to either live in an open air prison or in the refugee camp generations live since 1948. That's the kind of politics that breed 'terrorists'.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

No, neither will improve their situation, evidently.

So I'm saying the onus is on Israel to pave a way to peace, as the person I was replying to was suggesting the opposite as if the Palestinians have any bargaining power or anything to concede.

Israel doesn't have to do jack when the Palestinian territories are getting destroyed and it's a matter of SURVIVAL for the Palestinians, when the other side is the one carrying the big stick, the side getting their asses kicked should "seek peace" asap.

 

[collige]

Can someone explain the logic of the policy of using force against Hamas? Hamas was created in response to the occupation. Removing the entity of Hamas doesn't remove the cause; what's to stop another terrorist group being established? Furthermore, the collateral damage is clearly fomenting growing anger and spawning new threats as a result.

You can be the most pro-Israel advocate, but I'm just struggling to understand how the status quo in regards to Hamas is in the best interest of Israel from a security perspective, especially when these bombing campaigns increase the likelihood of a regional war involving Muslim nations.

A child could see the paradox here

The way I see it is this: Just like how Israeli attacks on Palestine breeds more terrorism, Hamas' rocket attacks on Israel also garner more support for the IDF's actions in Israel. Given Israel's military resources and support from the US, the odds of an actual war breaking out are practically nil. Maintaining the status quo doesn't pose an existential threat to Israel and allows them to continue their settlements relatively unopposed.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Israel doesn't have to do jack when the Palestinian territories are getting destroyed and it's a matter of SURVIVAL for the Palestinians, when the other side is the one carrying the big stick, the side getting their asses kicked should "seek peace" asap.

What the hell.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I am not too enlightened about the conflict. But this isn´t true at all, right?
That would be like...nazi stuff.

Also, it's ironic you'd compare Hamas to Nazi Germany, when Hamas and the Palestinians are the ones living in an open air prison and a concentration camp by definition. They can't go anywhere. They're under siege. They don't actually have any freedom. That's the very definition of internment.

http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/muslim-arab-world/c/hamas-in-their-own-words.html

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=120978949

Let me try to settle this in a manner that is acceptable to everybody.
Hamas used to have in its charter a call to destroy the state of Israel, as well as references to war against Jews in the general sense.

During the last decade, they have distanced themselves from such agenda, but since this is a fairly recent change of policy, and since there remain vocal extremists within Hamas (which is obviously something common in many organizations), Israeli leadership, as well as many Israeli voters, remain untrustful of Hamas. The fact that there is an ongoing war between Hamas and Israel, regardless of whether or not it is based on these or other agenda, doesn't help them gain the trust of the Israeli public, either.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

So an instant death vs a slow burn. Wow, they have it so good! Those guys in the West Bank should consider themselves lucky to be under occupation! Must be great.

Negotiation is a non-starter until the rockets stop, meanwhile your territory is getting bombed to shreds, it's probably a good idea to stay alive.

 

[collige]

Let me try to settle this in a manner that is acceptable to everybody.
Hamas used to have in its charter a call to destroy the state of Israel, as well as references to war against Jews in the general sense.

During the last decade, they have distanced themselves from such agenda, but since
this is a fairly recent change of policy, and since there remain vocal extremists within Hamas (which is obviously something common in many organizations), Israeli leadership, as well as many Israeli voters, remain untrustful of Hamas.

They still have it in their charter AFAIK and can't or won't change it for some reason that I don't really understand.

 

[diamount]

Negotiation is a non-starter until the rockets stop, meanwhile your territory is getting bombed to shreds, it's probably a good idea to stay alive.

Then they should fire their own rockets, instead ordinance that can wipe out entire families in one blast.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Then they should fire their own rockets, instead ordinance that can wipe out entire families in one blast.

Who should fire their own rockets? Do you mean the Palestinians? Can you clarify?

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

They still have it in their charter AFAIK and can't or won't change it for some reason that I don't really understand.

That's true, as far as I can tell, but doesn't really matter. It's not completely irrational for Israel to distrust an organization that up until a few years ago was calling for its destruction.

 

[collige]

That's true, as far as I can tell, but doesn't really matter. It's not completely irrational for Israel to distrust an organization that up until a few years ago was calling for its destruction.

I agree. But given Abbas' failure to get anything done politically and Israel's complete unwillingness to agree to Palestinian requests anyway, it seems to me that support of a group like Hamas is one of desperation. What else can they do apart from lay down and accept the status quo?

 

[m_shortpants]

Israel doesn't have to do jack when the Palestinian territories are getting destroyed and it's a matter of SURVIVAL for the Palestinians, when the other side is the one carrying the big stick, the side getting their asses kicked should "seek peace" asap.

So it's cool to oppress people if they can't do anything back to you.

Got it.

 

[diamount]

Who should fire their own rockets? Do you mean the Palestinians? Can you clarify?

The IDF.

 

[Joni]

I agree. But given Abbas' failure to get anything done politically and Israel's complete unwillingness to agree to Palestinian requests anyway, it seems to me that support of a group like Hamas is one of desperation. What else can they do apart from lay down and accept the status quo?

Israel's hostile actions are really only helping one side in this entire conflict: Hamas. Israel isn't getting better by any of this, the average Palestenian isn't. But Hamas is sure they'll have a lot of new members every day. You kill a guy's entire family, the chance is high he'll start helping you fight Israel.

 

[maharg]

Negotiation is a non-starter until the rockets stop, meanwhile your territory is getting bombed to shreds, it's probably a good idea to stay alive.

It's also probably a non-starter until Israel halts expansion of the settlements. And yes, they removed the Gaza settlements but through Oslo and through that withdrawal the settlement of the West Bank continued unabated.

There's plenty of reason for both sides to mistrust, but only one side is actually in a position to do anything about it. Who exactly is going to stop Hamas in Gaza? Who can make them stop that Israel will treat with? Never mind that Hamas was actually elected in both parts of the Palestinian Territories, so even Fatah lacks any real legitimacy anymore, whether Israel likes them or not.

 

[collige]

Israel's hostile actions are really only helping one side in this entire conflict: Hamas. Israel isn't getting better by any of this, the average Palestenian isn't. But Hamas is sure they'll have a lot of new members every day. You kill a guy's entire family, the chance is high he'll start helping you fight Israel.

I'm not sure if I agree with that. Like I said above, Hamas' actions don't present a major threat to Israel while the West Bank settlements can continue unopposed.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

The IDF.

Why should they do that? You can't blame the side with the bigger stick for carrying a bigger stick. You either win by brute force or with your wits, if you can't do either, then don't pick a fight

 

[MacNille]

The IDF.

Should they fire rockets of the same standers as Hamas use? I think that more Palestinian would die as IDF would miss their targets and would cause MORE death and destruction.

 

[Dude Abides]

Why should they do that? You can't blame the side with the bigger stick for carrying a bigger stick. You either win by brute force or with your wits, if you can't do either, then don't pick a fight

Israel's stick isn't that big. While it's much stronger, it can't stamp out Hamas any more than the US can stamp out Al Quaeda. And what concessions Israel has granted usually come in response to violence, while refraining from violence wins nothing. So, if anything, Israel has taught the Palestinians that violence is more effective than whatever you call what Abbas is doing.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

It's also probably a non-starter until Israel halts expansion of the settlements. And yes, they removed the Gaza settlements but through Oslo and through that withdrawal the settlement of the West Bank continued unabated.

There's plenty of reason for both sides to mistrust, but only one side is actually in a position to do anything about it. Who exactly is going to stop Hamas in Gaza? Who can make them stop that Israel will treat with? Never mind that Hamas was actually elected in both parts of the Palestinian Territories, so even Fatah lacks any real legitimacy anymore, whether Israel likes them or not.

Bit Israel is not the side with the most to lose here, it's the Palestinians, one of these days one of those rockets will get through and ask this will do is give Israel a reason to take off the kids gloves and hit back alot harder. They're not negotiating as equals here, never did, never will, this is not a pure academic discussion, lives are at stake, Palestinian lives. If anything the Palestinians should care enough to try to get the hostilities to cease.

 

[Quotient]

What the hell.

In any negotiation the one with power dictates the terms and the one without anyone tends not to dictate.

Right now, Israel has all the power, it has no incentive to stop the settlements, so Hamas or any Palestinian group demanding an end to settlements isn't going to stop Israel. The longer the Palestinian leadership and Hamas drag out this "battle" the less and less land they will have and more death.

 

[m_shortpants]

Bit Israel is not the side with the most to lose here, it's the Palestinians, one of these days one of those rockets will get through and ask this will do is give Israel a reason to take off the kids gloves and hit back alot harder. They're not negotiating as equals here, never did, never will, this is not a pure academic discussion, lives are at stake, Palestinian lives. If anything the Palestinians should care enough to try to get the hostilities to cease.

And they did, on the West Bank. And so far Israel has done absolutely nothing for them. So what else can the Palestinians in the WB do for Israel? The onus is ENTIRELY on Israel. But of course Israel is perfectly content to maintain the status quo.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Israel's stick isn't that big. While it's much stronger, it can't stamp out Hamas any more than the US can stamp out Al Quaeda. And what concessions Israel has granted usually come in response to violence, while refraining from violence wins nothing. So, if anything, Israel has taught the Palestinians that violence is more effective than whatever you call what Abbas is doing.

And firing rockets wins you a pile of rubbles and dead Palestinians. This is not the time to even ask for Israeli concessions, this is the time to ensure your own survival.

 

[Quotient]

Bit Israel is not the side with the most to lose here, it's the Palestinians, one of these days one of those rockets will get through and ask this will do is give Israel a reason to take off the kids gloves and hit back alot harder. They're not negotiating as equals here, never did, never will, this is not a pure academic discussion, lives are at stake, Palestinian lives. If anything the Palestinians should care enough to try to get the hostilities to cease.

This scare me alot. If Hamas is stupid enough to hit Tel Aviv, then Israel will really unleash its wrath, and the Palestinians will be the ones who will be the losers.

 

[maharg]

Bit Israel is not the side with the most to lose here, it's the Palestinians, one of these days one of those rockets will get through and ask this will do is give Israel a reason to take off the kids gloves and hit back alot harder. They're not negotiating as equals here, never did, never will, this is not a pure academic discussion, lives are at stake, Palestinian lives. If anything the Palestinians should care enough to try to get the hostilities to cease.

I'm sorry, but your view here is the academic one. The Palestinians themselves are the ones who are living their lives in the occupation and having their territory taken over inch by inch no matter what they do. It's academic to say "it's not worth it, save your lives, your home is unimportant."

Oppressed people are angry. Telling them to calm down has rarely, if ever, succeeded in ending their oppression. Usually it just intensifies it.

In the end, if you're not angry at what Israel is doing I just don't even know what to tell you. It doesn't matter what happened before, in 1948, 1967, 1993, or 2006. It doesn't matter what Egypt, Jordan, Syria, or Iran want. What Israel has been doing, especially by continuing the settlements, is wrong, and is a fundamental cause of the continuation of this conflict. Be angry at Hamas too, but if your answer to this is to ask Hamas to stop fighting back, well, history suggests that gets you nothing but being stomped out.

 

[RustyNails]

That's true, as far as I can tell, but doesn't really matter. It's not completely irrational for Israel to distrust an organization that up until a few years ago was calling for its destruction.

PLO charter called for Israel's destruction and did not recognize its existence up until 1993 peace accord. Charters change.

 

[Dude Abides]

And firing rockets wins you a pile of rubbles and dead Palestinians. This is not the time to even ask for Israeli concessions, this is the time to ensure your own survival.

Israel isn't going to kill them all. I guess they've decided they'd rather die on their feet than live on their knees.

 

[diamount]

Why should they do that? You can't blame the side with the bigger stick for carrying a bigger stick. You either win by brute force or with your wits, if you can't do either, then don't pick a fight

Win by brute force, eh? Because that has worked so fantastically with insurgencies in the past. There have been 100 dead Palestinians so far, where are the hundreds of dead Israelis for this to be justifiable?

Should they fire rockets of the same standers as Hamas use? I think that more Palestinian would die as IDF would miss their targets and would cause MORE death and destruction.

Not by a long shot.

 

[Quotient]

I'm sorry, but your view here is the academic one. The Palestinians themselves are the ones who are living their lives in the occupation and having their territory taken over inch by inch no matter what they do. It's academic to say "it's not worth it, save your lives, your home is unimportant."

Oppressed people are angry. Telling them to calm down has rarely, if ever, succeeded in ending their oppression. Usually it just intensifies it.

In the end, if you're not angry at what Israel is doing I just don't even know what to tell you. It doesn't matter what happened before, in 1948, 1967, 1993, or 2006. It doesn't matter what Egypt, Jordan, Syria, or Iran want. What Israel has been doing, especially by continuing the settlements, is wrong, and is a fundamental cause of the continuation of this conflict. Be angry at Hamas too, but if your answer to this is to ask Hamas to stop fighting back, well, history suggests that gets you nothing but being stomped out.

I am angry at Israel's settlements, I am also angry at Hamas, and also want Palestinian's to have a quality of life like we all take for granted in the West. Being Angry and wanting change isn't going to do it. How do you suppose we stop Israeli settlement expansion?

 

[Pilgor]

Win by brute force, eh? Because that has worked so fantastically with insurgencies in the past. There have been 100 dead Palestinians so far, where are the hundreds of dead Israelis for this to be justifiable?



Not by a long shot.

Israelis do not have to die for their response to be justifiable.

Attempted-Murder is a crime, too. Just because your victim doesn't die, does't mean you're not guilty of a heinous crime. Hamas is trying very hard to kill Israelis, I don't think this is in dispute.

 

[deathkiller]

I find ironic that so many people cares about Hamas acknowledging the right of Israel to exist as state when most of the Israeli government don't think that a Palestinian state should exists.

The problem with Hamas is that they have done things like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_massacre . Still, no matter what Hamas has done or would like doing, that doesn't justify blowing up entire buildings because a member of Hamas (leader or not) happens to live there.

 

[maharg]

I am angry at Israel's settlements, I am also angry at Hamas, and also want Palestinian's to have a quality of life like we all take for granted in the West. Being Angry and wanting change isn't going to do it. How do you suppose we stop Israeli settlement expansion?

I don't know, but not being angry about it, or failing to express that anger, is sure as hell not going to do anything. It took a long time for international pressure to help bring about an end to apratheid, and for most of that time governments were similarly supportive of the regime as they are of Israel's right to defense now. But I can tell you one thing that would have never ended it: Insisting that nothing could be solved until the oppressed group magically became perfect angels and lay down and get run over lest they be retaliated against.

 

[diamount]

Israelis do not have to die for their response to be justifiable.

Attempted-Murder is a crime, too. Just because your victim doesn't die, does't mean you're not guilty of a heinous crime. Hamas is trying very hard to kill Israelis, I don't think this is in dispute.

Yet NOT A SINGLE ONE has died. So please carry on and defend murder.

 

[Pilgor]

Yet NOT A SINGLE ONE has died. So please carry on and defend murder.

I really don't think you understand.

 

[diamount]

I really don't think you understand.

I understand when a show of force is necessary, and when its not.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

PLO charter called for Israel's destruction and did not recognize its existence up until 1993 peace accord. Charters change.

Not saying they don't, but unfortunately sometimes it takes a while for people to change as well. (by that I mean people on both sides).

 

[Quotient]

I don't know, but not being angry about it, or failing to express that anger, is sure as hell not going to do anything. It took a long time for international pressure to help bring about an end to apratheid, and for most of that time governments were similarly supportive of the regime as they are of Israel's right to defense now. But I can tell you one thing that would have never ended it: Insisting that nothing could be solved until the oppressed group magically became perfect angels and lay down and get run over lest they be retaliated against.

How long do the Palestinians have till global attitudes change? What do you think will happen when Hamas gains some more advanced rockets and hits Tel Aviv?

I am not suggesting they do nothing. I am suggesting that they go to the negotiating table and take any offer Israel gives. Resistance just doesn't seem to be working.

 

[JordanN]

Ofcourse they will not fight in the open, wich army or faction would willingly place themselves in such a disadvantage? They are using Guerrilla attacks which is their only chance against this difference in fire power that Israel holds. Do you realize that Hamas is foghting for what the Palestinian people wants? Freedom is what they both want and instead of lying on their backs they are fighting the suppression.

Again you bring up the human shields argument. Have you any proof they are doing that from hospitals? Besides a video from years ago or an IDF statement?

Also Hamas denied any responsibility in the death of these teenagers, how exactly did they start this war that nobody asked for? Was it not Netanyahu that screamed that Hamas is to blame, but we have yet to see any evidence of that and all we get is his word for it. Well I can tell you than I don't trust a thing he says and imo he is a war criminal. Obviously you will not agree with me about Netanyahu since you are only getting positive news about him, but you cannot disagree that the start of this war came from Israel based on empty conclussions.

When 9/11 happened, Afghanistan denied or wasn't willing to give up Osama Bin Laden. Did you think that was enough to stop the U.S from absolutely going in?
Whether or not Israel has evidence, never take a terrorists words for 100%.

Their Guerrilla tactics are still immoral. Ok, why aren't they telling civilians to leave when they start fighting? Why is it Israel has to call Gaza or drop leaflets telling them to leave? There is zero defense for this other than, Hamas not actually caring for the Palestinians. They're using them like pawns. They need those casualties to look good and turn it into propaganda.

Why just a hospital? I already posted proof they have stored weapons in Mosques before.

 

[maharg]

How long do the Palestinians have till global attitudes change? What do you think will happen when Hamas gains some more advanced rockets and hits Tel Aviv?

I am not suggesting they do nothing. I am suggesting that they go to the negotiating table and take any offer Israel gives. Resistance just doesn't seem to be working.

It's not as if Hamas has refused to treat with Israel, and the Palestinians have been taking diplomatic approaches as well. Including the fact that the West Bank has been peaceful, but also their attempts to have a stronger voice at the UN (which Israel categorically opposes and has actually called it something like "diplomatic terrorism").

Right now it's very much Israel who is opposing a diplomatic solution. There's no real evidence that Hamas laying down arms will change that, and quite a lot to suggest otherwise imo.

 

[GYODX]

Just because the Israeli government did say that they are trying to prevent the death of innocents, doesn't mean they were telling the truth.

The numbers speak for themselves. Around 200 hundred tragic deaths out of thousands of airstrikes. If the Israelis were some heartless monsters that wanted to kill as many civilians as possible (as you seem to have convinced yourself), the death toll would have been MUCH higher.

Are you kidding me? Do we need to post pictures of dead children again? Just listen to yourself. You sound absolutely evil.

Just because you're emotional doesn't mean you're right.

You are boasting. You are fucking boasting by using those dead people as an example that the IDF "did a good job". You make me sick.

Right, way to ignore the part where I said

Although there is no amount of "justified" civilian casualties and even a single dead civilian is an inexcusable tragedy

and cherrypick the parts that sounded the most outrageous to you as standalone statements. You remind me of Fox News.

The context was me trying to argue that the Israelis aren't evil, heartless monsters deliberately trying to kill as many civilians as possible, not that I approve of the airstrikes.

If people here could actually start responding to what I said and not what you think I said, that would be great.

 

[Quotient]

It's not as if Hamas has refused to treat with Israel, and the Palestinians have been taking diplomatic approaches as well. Including the fact that the West Bank has been peaceful, but also their attempts to have a stronger voice at the UN (which Israel categorically opposes and has actually called it something like "diplomatic terrorism").

Right now it's very much Israel who is opposing a diplomatic solution. There's no real evidence that Hamas laying down arms will change that, and quite a lot to suggest otherwise imo.

But it may avoid all the death and destruction going on in Gaza now.

Israel's refusal for a diplomatic solution is in part due to Hamas being part of the Palestinian Unity Government. Israel refuses to deal with them, and they have good reason too.

I asked this previously (not to you) but do you think Hamas is pushing forward the needs of the Palestinian people?

 

[LNBL]

When 9/11 happened, Afghanistan denied or wasn't willing to give up Osama Bin Laden. Did you think that was enough to stop the U.S from going absolutely going in?
Whether or not Israel has evidence, never take a terrorists words for 100%.

Their Guerrilla tactics are still immoral. Ok, why aren't they telling civilians to leave when they start fighting? Why is it Israel has to call Gaza or drop leaflets telling them to leave? There is zero defense for this other than, Hamas not actually caring for the Palestinians. They're using them like pawns. They need those casualties to look good and turn it into propaganda.

Why just a hospital? I already posted proof they have stored weapons in Mosques before.

You are right, that's why I don't trust everything the IDF says.

Tell them to leave? Where would they go? Around the corner and then run back when the next bomb will hit that same corner in 2 hours? You talk about Hamas using them as pawns as if it is all as clear as daylight to everyone, yet is is only the same people claiming that in this thread. Hamas's tactics are nasty at times yes, but saying they are PURPOSELY killing the people of the occupied territory that they want to liberate just to use them as propaganda for the outside world is fucking cruel. Imo it shows how little is actually cared about the lives of those families that are left behind when you dismiss lives that easy. No i don't think it's only the palestinians that are being fed propaganda at this point, try reflecting on yourself before talking about propaganda.

And why just a hospital? Why not? It's a WAR CRIME, to attack hospitals during war time. Don't you understand what that means? I have seen 0 proof that this hospital was being used to hide weapons and I have seen 0 proof that those elderly disabled people were protecting weapons, yet according to a doctor of that hospital it has been the 3rd time they have been attacked over the years.

 

[SRG01]

I don't know, but not being angry about it, or failing to express that anger, is sure as hell not going to do anything. It took a long time for international pressure to help bring about an end to apratheid, and for most of that time governments were similarly supportive of the regime as they are of Israel's right to defense now. But I can tell you one thing that would have never ended it: Insisting that nothing could be solved until the oppressed group magically became perfect angels and lay down and get run over lest they be retaliated against.

This can be said about almost all of the revolutionary groups in recent history. Peace was never achieved by insisting on perfect, unrealistic behavior. And, despite their violent behaviors, many of these groups did have legitimate grievances.

It's like we haven't learned anything at all.

 

[Quotient]

This can be said about almost all of the revolutionary groups in recent history. Peace was never achieved by insisting on perfect, unrealistic behavior. And, despite their violent behaviors, many of these groups did have legitimate grievances.

It's like we haven't learned anything at all.

Have any of them successfully met their objectives?

 

[maharg]

But it may avoid all the death and destruction going on in Gaza now.

Israel's refusal for a diplomatic solution is in part due to Hamas being part of the Palestinian Unity Government. Israel refuses to deal with them, and they have good reason too.

I asked this previously (not to you) but do you think Hamas is pushing forward the needs of the Palestinian people?

I believe I have some unanswered questions from you as well. Namely what kind of borders would Israel actually accept/propose at this point for a real two-state solution? With no provision of that, I don't think the conflict can end in anything but a slow and inexorable march of the settlement situation, and I don't think the Palestinians will benefit from that in the long run.

I think Hamas almost certainly thinks they are, and I think they and the Palestinian people have legitimate grievances against Israel (as well as all their other, theoretically more sympathetic, neighbors).