http://time.com/2986107/israel-gaza-hamas-ceasefire/
For the ones that keep bringing up the point that Israel agreed to the cease fire.
Kind of hard to accept a peace offer that you had no part in forming and one that does not help the occupation.
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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza
- Thread starter RustyNails
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http://time.com/2986107/israel-gaza-hamas-ceasefire/
For the ones that keep bringing up the point that Israel agreed to the cease fire.
Kind of hard to accept a peace offer that you had no part in forming and one that does not help the occupation.
Maninthemirror
Banned
was Hamas or non-Hamas Gazans consulted on the ceasefire deal before it was labelled a ceasefire deal?
I don't think Israel would agree to a peace process proposed by ISIS, Syria or even Iran, but Israel is the "winner" here. Hamas just need to agree to a truce, if anything to prevent any more Palestinian deaths.
It won't prevent any deaths, it would just slow them down. People don't tend to thrive in ghetto's.
I responded to the assertion that most Israelis care about Palestinians casualties.
They don't.
This is not a hate-off.
Hamas is on the record right now that it is willing for a 10 years truce in exchange for "release of re-arrested Palestinian prisoners who were let go in the Schalit deal, the opening of Gaza-Israel border crossings in order to allow citizens and goods to pass through, and international supervision of the Gazan seaport in place of the current Israeli blockade."
Seem pretty reasonable to me.
But Israel is refusing to even enter talks with Hamas, which has always been its policy.
The ceasefire agreement had both sides coming to Egypt to negotiate over all issues within 48 hours. Hamas rejected it.
This conflict is lopsided, Israel could end this conflict by force in less then an hour and there is nothing Hamas could do about it. Israel will not do this of course, because it would lead to even more Palestinian civilian causalities. The Palestinians need to realize that they are simply not in a situation were they can wage war on their neighbor(which is what they are currently doing) without harming themselves ten-fold. They also need to realize that they can't have a government that wish for the extermination of Israel, no negotiations can be expected to take place if that's on the founding charter of a government party.
Hamas is offering Israel a truce right now.
Do the terms seem unreasonable to you?
I'm not sure I understand your argument.
Yeah, Israel can kill a ridiculous amount of Palestinians, much more than they do right now.
You're saying that's the reason the Palestinians should just give up on their hope of getting basic human right in the west bank or removing the blockade?
israel will never agree to those conditions just based on the fact hamas will continue its arms race gaining more and more rockets, international supervision never actually works.
If they recognize Israel, fine.
Hyperactivity
Banned
Yeah, West Bank, where the rockets aren't coming from, are indeed getting more settlements
what does recognizing israel mean? what do you want them to say/do?
I'm saying the Palestinians can only worsen this conflict and their own situation by supporting Hamas in their attack on Israel, there can be no military victory here, Hamas has it's own agenda and it goes counter to the interests of the Palestinian people.
It's funny to see how many people here believe Hamas would actually agree, or follow an agreement with Israel. I'm not talking about Abu Mazen here, which showed he is willing to get to an agreement. I'm talking Hamas, as they control Gaza. Read this:
http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/muslim-arab-world/c/hamas-in-their-own-words.html
These are quotes from Hamas officials and spokespeople that admit their anti-semitism and hate towards jews. They admit they want all of "Palestine" and don't even bother to hide their affection towards other Muslim extremists that killed innocents all over the world.
Hamas can often paint a picture that shows Israel as the one starting al the wars, but is that really the case? Before Israel's operation started, do you remember what happened?
3 Israeli boys were murdered by Hamas activists, afterwards a palestinian boy was murdered by several citizens that were extreme and hateful, but not by the government or military. Hamas saw it as an excuse to start bombing Israel with a shit ton of missiles and trying to carry out suicide bombings(that were prevented thanks to the IDF) immediately after the Palestinian boy was murdered.
Israel gave them 48 hours to stop shooting, without even attacking Gaza, and when they didn't stop shooting, Israel gave them an extra fucking day to stop it before Israel starts an operation.
The rest you already know.
http://www.adl.org/anti-semitism/muslim-arab-world/c/hamas-in-their-own-words.html
These are quotes from Hamas officials and spokespeople that admit their anti-semitism and hate towards jews. They admit they want all of "Palestine" and don't even bother to hide their affection towards other Muslim extremists that killed innocents all over the world.
Hamas can often paint a picture that shows Israel as the one starting al the wars, but is that really the case? Before Israel's operation started, do you remember what happened?
3 Israeli boys were murdered by Hamas activists, afterwards a palestinian boy was murdered by several citizens that were extreme and hateful, but not by the government or military. Hamas saw it as an excuse to start bombing Israel with a shit ton of missiles and trying to carry out suicide bombings(that were prevented thanks to the IDF) immediately after the Palestinian boy was murdered.
Israel gave them 48 hours to stop shooting, without even attacking Gaza, and when they didn't stop shooting, Israel gave them an extra fucking day to stop it before Israel starts an operation.
The rest you already know.
Where is your proof that Hamas killed those boys? Hamas denies any involvement with those deaths. I have yet to read a report of results from an investigation into the deaths of these kids.
More like ten day truce, to refill the missile-stockpile and then it's business as usual. Hamas' word means nothing, their goal is the extermination of Israel and every action they take is in service of that goal.
That they recognize the state of Israel and won't keep trying to destroy it, and that the solution to the conflict would be achieved through negotiations. That would be helpful.
Well looks like the report on this truce offer came from an unverified source in a Fatah affiliated website. Not corroborated by anyone in Hamas.
gutter_trash
Banned
I have not weighed in on this for obvious reasons of nothing ever getting resolved,
but the counter-measures taken on part of Israel and hugely disproportionate.
Telling 100 000 civilians in Gaza to evacuate is insanely disproportionate no matter the conflict or war.
Yeah, 3 teens got kidnapped, that is awful yeah, but it should be resolved in a police manner not a military manner.
That's all i have to say, disproportionate.
but the counter-measures taken on part of Israel and hugely disproportionate.
Telling 100 000 civilians in Gaza to evacuate is insanely disproportionate no matter the conflict or war.
Yeah, 3 teens got kidnapped, that is awful yeah, but it should be resolved in a police manner not a military manner.
That's all i have to say, disproportionate.
captainnapalm
Member
Not only that, but let's not forget that on May 20 two Palestinian teens were killed while posing no threat:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/may/20/cctv-footage-palestinian-teenagers-shot-dead-video
So if we really want to play elhav's 'who started it' game, perhaps we could start there?
"Hamas can often paint a picture that shows Israel as the one starting all the wars"
Yes they are very good at this, Hamas is an expert at propaganda.
"Hamas saw it as an excuse to start bombing Israel with a shit ton of missiles and trying to carry out suicide bombings(that were prevented thanks to the IDF) immediately after the Palestinian boy was murdered."
And the sad thing is that IDF's hard work in protecting its own people is often used against them. People posting graphs in the vein of "look how few people Hamas kills every day, Israel is such a monster for attacking them etc".
The only reason those fucking graphs aren't reversed is because the IDF does its job and protects it people! Opposite to Hamas who as the government in Gaza uses it's own people for human shields instead.
That'll teach Hamas and those pesky Palestine's with their protests and rockets.
http://warsclerotic.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/israel-names-suspects-in-kidnapping-of-three-teens/
It was known that they are Hamas activists. Hamas essentially denied any involvement but welcomed the murder, instead of talking against it. They called it a "victory".
Truly the talk of those who desire peace. And I want people to know exactly what Hamas really is. They don't want peace, they admitted it. They want Israel, they won't spare the lives of innocent civilians etc.
what does it matter if they "recognize" the state of Israel, if they agree to not try and destroy it and negotiate?
For the short term yes, but he/she may be referring to a longer term solution.
Not really. Regardless of Israel's defenses, Hamas' rocket strikes are remarkably ineffective.
We're looking at like 20% accuracy before the Iron Dome even comes into play.
What you certainly don't hear about is the tunnels and suicide squads that Hamas are sending all the time, that Israel's army manages to stop.Not really. Regardless of Israel's defenses, Hamas' rocket strikes are remarkably ineffective.
We're looking at like 20% accuracy before the Iron Dome even comes into play.
If Israel wasn't able to stop them, it would be the same as in the second Intifada, where more than 800 civilians were murdered by Hamas operatives.
Yeah, I don't see that as proof that they killed them.
And it was not Hamas that called it a victory, it was an unnamed source that called it a victory according to the Times of Israel. Not sure if I would accept the bombing and killing of innocent civilians on the basis of words of a unnamed source.
"And I want people to know exactly what Hamas really is. They don't want peace, they admitted it. They want Israel, they won't spare the lives of innocent civilians etc."
What you want is to feed the people only your side of the story and the news you are being fed by Israeli news channels. What you fail to recognize is that your view is so shortsighted in a way that you are blind to the blame that falls on Israel as well.
Enosh
Member
you mean the open border, UN control of sea and releasing prisoners one?
very reasonable apart from the prisoners part, I would like to know why exactly they were arrested in the first place, if it is for something ala protesting release them if it is for like blowing up a bus hell no
but of course getting Israel to agree to those demands is a different thing, personally I don't see it happening
Oh? And how many attempted suicide bombings have the been over the course of this conflict? Because literally no news website has any mention of them.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
I think it's stupid of Israel to turn this into an aerial bombardment of a tiny region, when they have more than enough on-foot troops to enter, find targets, firing stations, rouge militia, etc. and engage the hostiles terrorists on foot, while leaving the civilians completely out of this. Chances are the military casualty count in that kind of engagement would be slim to none, as numbers would simply favor the IDF ten-fold, as would the advantages of high-end tech.
I think Israel has a right to defend itself, but the way it's doing it is very, very irresponsible.
And I'm speaking as a Jew with family in Israel.
Unfortunately, both sides of the table are represented by terrible people and terrible regimes.
I think Israel has a right to defend itself, but the way it's doing it is very, very irresponsible.
And I'm speaking as a Jew with family in Israel.
Unfortunately, both sides of the table are represented by terrible people and terrible regimes.
RustyNails
Member
It's really counter-productive for Hamas to kill kidnapped Israeli teens (if they did the killing) in cold blood like that. It's more productive if they used the teens as bargaining chips in exchange for Hamas prisoners in Israel. More likely, they were rogue militants that tried to "avenge" the killing of two Palestinian teens killed by sniper fire a couple of weeks ago or just petty criminals.
I don't think Israel would trust any UN force unless it was lead by the US with majority US troops*. It was a UN peace keeping force that allowed the Egyptians to amass an army for an invasion.
* my speculation.
Woke up to see posts about the murder of those 4 children playing soccer by the IDF. So awful. Journalists were actually there to witness it. Clearly Hamas was using these kids as human shields.. o wait. I mean what the hell were these assholes even aiming at? It was an open field with 4 kids!
I would've never thought that you'd be Jewish alpha...since you got dat tag and dat avie lol....
Anyways my Jewish friends don't support the bombardment of Gaza. I've asked them to voice out their concerns but can't since they might get excommunicated from their synagogue if not be rejected from entering Israel. Is that even possible??? To be ostracized for going against the grain I mean.
Ground operations always end in more casualties for both sides.
RustyNails
Member
Wow, they shelled it twice, and all the kids were from one family.Woke up to see posts about the murder of those 4 children playing soccer by the IDF. So awful. Journalists were actually there to witness it. Clearly Hamas was using these kids as human shields.. o wait. I mean what the hell were these assholes even aiming at? It was an open field with 4 kids!
When you are going house to house in a dense populated urban territory any technology advantage you have begins to fade. There is no guarantee that civilian deaths would be lessened, it may even be the reverse.
There is a reason they prefer aerial bombardment over a ground invasion.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Tag is a Dave Chappelle quote/skit.
Avatar is me trolling Kobe Bryant. Not sure why either of the two would give anyone an indication of what I am or not, ethnically.
Anyways, to answer your question, much like any group of people (Christian, denominations of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.) ostracizing is dependent on the extremity of their specific group. You can't generalize. As far as being rejected from going to Israel? That's the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.
Unless you're a convicted terrorist, saying something on Facebook won't get you rejected by customs in Israel.
Really? Because so far it appears you haven't condemned Hamas even a single time in all your arguments. You ignored the quotes I gave you, of Hamas leaders, saying that they do not wish to have peace with Israel.
You changed the subject because you know Hamas are terrorists, you know they don't want peace, and yet you never mention it.
You keep going back to killing civilians, but we already had that discussion. I admitted the death of civilians is something terrible, but I explained that Israel is trying its best to avoid casualties. More than a few times IDF canceled a bombing of a building when they saw children or innocents crowded on the roof or in nearby areas.
You keep ignoring these facts, and yet you call me shortsighted? You won't believe sources some of us will give you, yet you believe sources that fit your opinion.
Woke up to see posts about the murder of those 4 children playing soccer by the IDF. So awful. Journalists were actually there to witness it. Clearly Hamas was using these kids as human shields.. o wait. I mean what the hell were these assholes even aiming at? It was an open field with 4 kids!
Foreign Journalists are staying in a hotel overlooking the beach and gave the children first aid. They're pretty equivocal about what happened.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/16/witness-gaza-shelling-first-hand-account
Basically for the Israeli apologists. Children targetted killed with first shot (no warning) then the survivors and aidgivers bracketed with additional fire.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Ground operations are highly targeted, focused and precise. They know who they're looking for and who to open fire on. They can also pin-point where rockets are being fired from. The IDF is highly capable. Casualties will be against anyone who is armed, not innocent children, wives, and others who are unarmed. IDF armor is also extremely thick, as is the rest of their combat gear and they roll in massive squads with eyes in the sky providing assistance. Tactical on-foot warfare is an easy game for the Israeli army. I know it sounds like something out of a videogame, but it's the Army's job to put their lives on the line to prevent the deaths of innocent civilians, be it they Jewish, Arab, Christian, Muslim, etc. (Israel is an extremely culturally diverse country, which many don't know).
Unless those civilians start getting in the way of operations by hurling glass, rocks, or maybe even carrying concealed ammunitions, there should be no innocent lives lost. I stress the word 'innocent' here. If you are interfering, then you are no longer innocent and are only adding more to the problem.
Woke up to see posts about the murder of those 4 children playing soccer by the IDF. So awful. Journalists were actually there to witness it. Clearly Hamas was using these kids as human shields.. o wait. I mean what the hell were these assholes even aiming at? It was an open field with 4 kids!
Disgusting.
L0st Id3ntity
Member
Glorious IDF.
Scum
The air strikes are suppose to be highly targeted, focused and precise, yet we are seeing a large number of civilian deaths.
There have been many situations where families have been trapped between the IDF and Hamas/Hezbollah/etc fighters.
dripdripsplash
Member
I would like to know what threat those 4 children posed while playing football ?
In other news
http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201407161104-0023931
In other news
http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201407161104-0023931
Using civilians is not a smart tactic for negotiations. Especially when compared with Hamas peisoners who aided in terrorist acts.
It would only give them a good scolding from the world.
Several sources indicate these killers are Hamas activists, or related to the Hamas in several ways.
AlphaSnake
...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Anyone who believes airstrikes are that precise are fools. That's why I personally condemn them. Gaza is way too small and the effects of a rocket resonate simply too much throughout such a small region.
On-foot manpower is more precise. They go exactly where they have to. Fire on exactly whom they have to. Dismantle what they find firing on them. It's really that simple.
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