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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza

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JordanN

Banned
gtfo with your BS...KKK still exists and xenophobia still exists today in America like in israel (xenophobia bit).
Also, wtf does KKK have to anything with Hamas?
Your analogies make no sense whatsoever...
Dude, you just flew right over my post. I never said the KKK is gone, I'm saying they're a joke today. Meaning, they have next to no power or influence like they did in the past.

It's an unorthodox example, I'll admit. But the point was, trying to claim "a new hamas will show up" is boogeyman logic. Palestinians can form a new group with even worse goals, I don't care. As long as they never get elected into a place of power like how Hamas did, they'll be forced to die out like all of histories fringe groups everybody stopped listening to.
 
Gaza Cease-Fire Dynamics Explained: What Cease-Fire will Work?


http://blog.thejerusalemfund.org/2014/07/gaza-cease-fire-dynamics-explained-what.html?m=1

After nearly 200 Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza Strip over the past week, there is finally increased discussion of attaining a cease-fire. The truth is, everyone knew it would have to end with a cease-fire, the only questions were how many more Palestinians would be killed, when would it happen and on what terms. Much of the discourse on this issue to tragically misinformed about the dynamics or fire between Israel and Gaza both during and outside of cease-fire agreements. Using data that ranges nearly ten years and with a closer focus on a subsection that was the 2012 cease-fire period, we explain below how these dynamics work in an effort to inform a way forward.

This first chart below depicts the number of launches from Gaza of projectiles from September of 2004 through this May. That is nearly a decade. It starts at September because that's how far back our data set goes on this issue, but this significant span of time gives you a very clear picture of the ebbs and flows. Launches can involve one projectile (which is often the case) or more. I've highlighted some key events.

46974

Two things become very clear when looking at this chart. The single most effective way to bring projectile fire from Gaza to a halt is through a cease-fire agreement. Military campaigns have only had the effect of increasing the number of projectiles fired. The June 2008 agreement brought projectile fire from Gaza to near zero until the Israelis broke the truce on Nov. 4th, 2008 sparking the escalation that culminated in the massive attack that was "Operation Cast Lead". What's clear from this is that the military operation generated far more rockets than the absence of it. Keep in mind the context which this is taking place, prior to "Operation Cast Lead", according to B'Tselem's statistics, over 392 Palestinians were killed on average in each year from 2004-2008. That's more than one a day for 4 years.

A similar story plays out in 2012. We covered the lead up to this escalation and dynamics of fire earlier in 2012 showing how the vast majority of projectiles from Gaza were provoked by Israeli strikes causing Palestinian casualties. The most significant event that lead to Hamas' participation in the eight-day bombardment in 2012 was the assassination of Ahmad Jaabari who was killed by Israel as he was negotiating a longer term truce. Again, a military campaign by Israel generated more projectile fire than the absence of it, proving once more that there was no military solution to this problem for Israel.

After the eight-day bombing campaign in 2012, a cease-fire agreement was reached through Egypt and US mediation. We began watching adherence to the terms of that agreement closely. The terms of the agreement included both sides halting attacks and Israel easing restrictions as well. This meant:
Israel shall stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land, sea and air, including incursions and targeting of individuals.
All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel, including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.
Opening the crossings and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents' free movements and targeting residents in border areas. Procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.

So what did adherence to these terms look like? Well, we graphed it out below. Numbers here for attacks from Gaza come from Israel's Shabak, so it is unlikely they are understated. Numbers for Palestinian injuries, deaths, Israeli incursions and attacks on fishermen come from UN OCHA.


In the immediate aftermath of the cease-fire agreement no projectiles were launched from Gaza into Israel. Rather Israel continued to fire into Gaza, killing one Palestinian, injuring 42 others, committing four incursions and firing at or detaining 48 Palestinian fishermen off the coast. It was not until after most of these violations that the first projectile from Gaza post-ceasefire was launched on Dec. 24, 2012.

What the chart above clearly depicts is that even when rocket fire comes to a halt as called for by the cease-fire agreement, Israeli continues its violations with total impunity. When the rockets stop, the siege, occupation and colonization of Palestine does not. I think we can draw from this some keys to a sustainable cease-fire agreement:

1. An agreement must be clear in terms of what constitutes a violation so that the actors will have to consider the ramifications of public condemnation before committing a violation.

2. An agreement must take into consideration the dramatic imbalance of power between the sides. If there is a Palestinian violation, Israel retains the capacity to hold them accountable independently and at will, often inflicting disproportionate causalities leading to escalation. But when Israel violates the cease-fire, Palestinians cannot hold them accountable. The absence of any mechanism for monitoring Israeli violations and holding them to account creates incentives for Palestinians to do so in other ways, like firing projectiles.

3. An agreement must ensure that Israel does not use its position of power to unilaterally change the terms. The previous cease-fire included an easing of restrictions as part of the detailed understanding between the parties negotiated through Egypt. This meant fisherman could fish up to six nautical miles from the coast instead of the previously imposed three nautical mile mark. It also meant Palestinians could access farm land up to 300 meters from the fence, previously Israel had fired at Palestinians as far as 1500 meters away. But during the course of the cease-fire, Israel unilaterally changed those terms, reinforcing the three nautical mile mark and going back to shooting Palestinians near the fence even as far away as 1500 meters.

4. An agreement must take into account the devastating human rights crisis and humanitarian situation in Gaza that lies at the foundation of discontent there. As mentioned above, when it came to "easing restrictions" the previous agreement was mostly about determining what would be the dimensions of the prison cell that is the Gaza Strip. For real progress, an agreement must challenge the very notion that Palestinians should be stuck in this prison at all and move toward ending the collective punishment that is Israel's siege on the Strip.

Of course there are bigger problems here as well, including the ongoing denial of Palestinian self-determination and repatriation which all people who care about justice should continue to struggle for, but an agreement that followed the points above would be a marked improvement over previous ones and undoubtedly be more durable that its predecessors given the reasons they have failed. Chances are however, given the power dynamics in Israel, Egypt and the US, it's more likely that the type of agreement that will be imposed on Palestinians will likely only fall apart. The only question is how many months it will last and how many Palestinians will be killed during this "cease-fire."

Excellent piece on this conflict and former conflicts and the trend that the IDF follow with cease-fires and the breaking of them afterwards.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Dude, you just flew right over my post. I never said the KKK is gone, I'm saying they're a joke today. Meaning, they have next to no power or influence like they did in the past.

It's an unorthodox example, I'll admit. But the point was, trying to claim "a new hamas will show up" is boogeyman logic. Palestinians can form a new group with even worse goals, I don't care. As long as they never get elected into a place of power like how Hamas did, they'll be forced to die out like all of histories fringe groups everybody stopped listening to.

The key difference in this analogy is that the north's occupation of the south ended. After 10 years. And the south was allowed to keep some pretty fucking reprehensible laws all the way into the 1960s, and even to now in some cases.
 

LNBL

Member
Hamas can be removed by force. The Taliban were once a government even though they're now an ideology.

If Israel captures Gaza, they can institute a new rule. No more rockets. If Palestinians try to smuggle them in, they'll be stopped at the gates (military checkpoints).

There is so much wrong with this sentence that you wrote. Israel has no right to control them and institute rules on suppressed people. If Israel occupies more land of the palestinians the resistance will grow even stronger, it does not matter if you destroy Hamas in the progress. Or do you think that destroying Hamas will cause the Palestinian people to have peace with their occupation?

In other news. Following other South American countries, President Bouterse of Suriname has told the UN they now recognize Palestina as an independant state. This comes after Guyana doing the same, adding them to the list of Argentina, Bolivia, Chili, Brazil, Ecuador, Peru and Uruguay. Obviously The Netherlands and other Western allies of Israel do not recognize Palestina as independant state.
 

JordanN

Banned
There is so much wrong with this sentence that you wrote. Israel has no right to control them and institute rules on suppressed people. If Israel occupies more land of the palestinians the resistance will grow even stronger, it does not matter if you destroy Hamas in the progress. Or do you think that destroying Hamas will cause the Palestinian people to have peace with their occupation?
A ha, so you want Palestinians to keep killing Israelis? Because that's the whole reason they shouldn't have access to rockets.

I saw this comic yesterday and it hit the nail on the head on what "resistance" means.
ibaHCOyJp2Blsc.gif
 
A ha, so you want Palestinians to keep killing Israelis? Because that's the whole reason they shouldn't have access to rockets.

I saw this comic yesterday and it hit the nail on what "resistance" means
ibaHCOyJp2Blsc.gif

Your not refuting anything with a comic. First of all Gaza has never been liberated. Israel controls the air, sea even the land in the form of checkpoints and blockades.

If you call that being liberated then I don't know what to say.
 

LNBL

Member
A ha, so you want Palestinians to keep killing Israelis? Because that's the whole reason they shouldn't have access to rockets.

I saw this comic yesterday and it hit the nail on the head on what "resistance" means.
ibaHCOyJp2Blsc.gif

Don't put words into my mouth, you are missing my point completely. How about you answer my question first, instead of waiving it off with a petty cartoon.
 

JordanN

Banned
Don't put words into my mouth, you are missing my point completely. How about you answer my question first, instead of avoiding it with a petty cartoon.

What point? Hamas gets to fire rockets into a sovereign country and pass it off as "resisting" (even though it's flawed)? There's never going to be any peace because of it, nor should Israelis continue to suffer from a terror group living right next to them.
 

LNBL

Member
What point? Hamas gets to fire rockets into a sovereign country and pass it off as "resisting" (even though it's flawed)? There's never going to be any peace because of it, nor should Israelis continue to suffer from a terror group living right next to them.

Again, answer the question. It's not that hard.
 

JordanN

Banned
"Or do you think that destroying Hamas will cause the Palestinian people to have peace with their occupation?"

I'm not sure what this even means. The Palestinians need to have peace with Israelis, not some occupation.
 

maharg

idspispopd
"Or do you think that destroying Hamas will cause the Palestinian people to have peace with their occupation?"

I'm not sure what this even means. The Palestinians need to have peace with Israelis, not some occupation.

Occupation is what they have now.
 

JordanN

Banned
Occupation is what they have now.
Well I don't want to see anymore Israelis die. Palestinians have to make peace with Israel first. That's the only reason this war goes on.

Hamas is acting as enablers for Palestinians not having a state, by continuing to promise more war.
 
"Or do you think that destroying Hamas will cause the Palestinian people to have peace with their occupation?"

I'm not sure what this even means. The Palestinians need to have peace with Israelis, not some occupation.

Lol so the context of their relationship with the Israelis is irrelevant?
 

Chichikov

Member
Well I don't want to see anymore Israelis die. Palestinians have to make peace with Israel first. That's the only reason this war goes on.

Hamas is acting as enablers for Palestinians not having a state, by continuing to promise more war.
What do you mean "make peace first"?
Israel is refusing to talk with Hamas and refusing to remove any settlement.
 
Uhhh what about Palestinians though? Have you at least once admitted it's regrettable seeing them die too?

Just seems like you value one innocent life far more than another, maybe I'm wrong tho
 

JordanN

Banned
What do you mean "make peace first"?
Israel is refusing to talk with Hamas and refusing to remove any settlement.

"we refuse to negotiate with terrorists"
Hamas is the worse group to discuss peace. Get rid of them and their weapons, there will be peace.
 
Occupation is what they have now.

Basically. Palestinians literally only have a bit of land. Israel controls their imports, exports, border access, security, air space, sea access, electricity, and I think their running water. As well as having a larger population and exponentially more military funding, which goes towards cutting edge hardware compared to the 30+ year old technology Hamas has access to.

"we refuse to negotiate with terrorists"
Hamas is the worse group to discuss peace. Get rid of them and their weapons, there will be peace.

You are so deep in denial it's physically painful.
 
"we refuse to negotiate with terrorists"
Hamas is the worse group to discuss peace. Get rid of them and their weapons, there will be peace.

1. Palestinian rockets are a small price to pay for Palestinian land.

2. Get rid of Hamas and there are still angry and desperate Palestinians.
 

Chichikov

Member
"we refuse to negotiate with terrorists"
Hamas is the worse group to discuss peace. Get rid of them and their weapons, there will be peace.
Again, the Palestinians sat in peace for 20 years and only got settlements.
The west bank is mostly quiet and they get nothing.
 

LNBL

Member
"Or do you think that destroying Hamas will cause the Palestinian people to have peace with their occupation?"

I'm not sure what this even means. The Palestinians need to have peace with Israelis, not some occupation.

I'm still waiting.

Let me make the question easier then. Do you think that the Palestinian people will, after Hamas is destroyed, accept a live under the occupation of Israel as they are living now?
 

JordanN

Banned
Again, the Palestinians sat in peace for 20 years and only got settlements.
The west bank is mostly quiet and they get nothing.
And they're still getting settlements, what does killing more Israelis solve?

No Israelis died during the Oslo Accords (well, the Israeli prime minister did but by someone else). What's so hard to keep doing this instead? Why did they bother with another Intifada at the same time these talks went down?

Also, I wouldn't call it peaceful. There where many Palestinian terror groups kidnapping Israelis or holding them hostage.

I'm still waiting.

Let me make the question easier then. Do you think that the Palestinian people will, after Hamas is destroyed, accept a live under the occupation of Israel as they are living now?
They don't need occupation. They just need to accept a state without rockets and weapons.
 
And they're still getting settlements, what does killing more Israelis solve?

No Israelis died during the Oslo Accords (well, the Israeli prime minister did but by someone else). What's so hard to keep doing this instead? Why did they bother with another Intifada at the same time these talks went down?

Also, I wouldn't call it peaceful. There where many Palestinian terror groups kidnapping Israelis or holding them hostage.

You're literally advocating Palestine allow Israel to just annex their land and freely displace their entire population, you realize that right?
 

Chichikov

Member
And they're still getting settlements, what does killing more Israelis solve?

No Israelis died during the Oslo Accords (well, the Israeli prime minister did but by someone else). What's so hard to keep doing this instead? Why did they bother with another Intifada at the same time these talks went down?
Whatever small things they got, they got through violence.
It is sad, I wish it wasn't the case, but that the lesson Israel is teaching them.
Before the Intifada, Israel ignored the very existence of the Palestinian people.
Shit, even right now, you have a moderate leader in the west bank, a leader willing to work with Israel and is actively helping in preventing terror attack, and Israel is making him look a traitor to his country.
This shit only strengthen Hamas.

Also, Israel didn't follow through on its obligation of Oslo, the 2nd Intifada was after talks broke out completely.

p.s.
Those mini-wars in Gaza did not stop the rocket fire to Israel, funny how you don't apply the same logic to Israel. They cost significant more innocent lives too.
 

LNBL

Member
They don't need occupation. They just need to accept a state without rockets and weapons.

I agree, so when will Israel stop the current Occupation of the Palestinians so that they can get the peace they deserve?

And they're still getting settlements, what does killing more Israelis solve?

No Israelis died during the Oslo Accords (well, the Israeli prime minister did but by someone else). What's so hard to keep doing this instead? Why did they bother with another Intifada at the same time these talks went down?

Also, I wouldn't call it peaceful. There where many Palestinian terror groups kidnapping Israelis or holding them hostage.
.
It certainly was NOT peacefull there. Did you know that the number of deaths in 2013 were triple the amount of deaths in 2012? Do you want some examples of when people got shot in the West Bank?

The incidents that resulted in fatalities in the West Bank include the following instances:

In nine incidents, Israeli security forces entered Palestinian communities for the purpose of what the military calls arrest operations: In four of these incidents, soldiers fired shots when stones were thrown at them; another four incidents involved exchanges of fire; regarding the last incident the Israeli military maintains that there were exchanges of fire, but B’Tselem has been unable to verify this information.

In three incidents, soldiers fired while lying in wait to capture stone-throwers.
In four incidents, soldiers discharged lethal gunfire when Palestinians were throwing stones.

Five incidents occurred under other kinds of conditions: one man was shot when he tried to enter Israel without carrying a legal entry permit; one woman passerby was shot by the military who argued that a Molotov cocktail had been lobbed in the area; one man was shot when he broke into a military base with a tractor; and one man was shot after allegedly assaulting a Border Police officer.
http://www.btselem.org/press_releases/20131230_2013_fatalities_statistics
 

JordanN

Banned
Whatever small things they got, they got through violence.
It is sad, I wish it wasn't the case, but that the lesson Israel is teaching them.
Before the Intifada, Israel ignored the very existence of the Palestinian people.
Shit, even right now, you have a moderate leader in the west bank, a leader willing to work with Israel and is actively helping in preventing terror attack, and Israel is making him look a traitor to his country.
This shit only strengthen Hamas.

Also, Israel didn't follow through on its obligation of Oslo, the 2nd Intifada was after talks broke out completely.
They definitely weren't ignored. You missed my edit but Israel was engaging with Palestinians everywhere.
Munich massacre
Uganda Hostage situation
Several raids into Jordan (PLO hideout)
PLO moved to Lebanon, war broke out

Chichikov said:
p.s.
Those mini-wars in Gaza did not stop the rocket fire to Israel, funny how you don't apply the same logic to Israel. They cost significant more innocent lives too.
This is still Israel defending itself, even though I would like Israel to make it their last and topple Hamas.
 
I agree, so when will Israel stop the current Occupation of the Palestinians so that they can get the peace they deserve?

Essentially he's saying no matter what Palestine does Israel is going to seize their land and control their lives, so they should just lay back and take it until Israel has completely destroyed what was once Palestine and the whole region can live in peace.
 

Chichikov

Member
They definitely weren't ignored. You missed my edit but Israel was engaging with Palestinians everywhere.
Munich massacre
Uganda Hostage situation
Several raids into Jordan (PLO hideout)
PLO moved to Lebanon, war broke out
What's your argument here?
That all the Palestinians can't get basic human rights because of Munich?


This is still Israel defending itself, even though I would like Israel to make it their last and topple Hamas.
And the Palestinians has the right to fight for Self determination/equal rights.
You made the point that "it's not working".
Well, the bombing of Gaza isn't working either.
 

JordanN

Banned
What's your argument here?
That all the Palestinians can't get basic human rights because of Munich?
No.
That the situation wasn't always peaceful.

Chichikov said:
And the Palestinians has the right to fight for Self determination/equal rights.
You made the point that "it's not working".
Well, the bombing of Gaza isn't working either.
The bombs take out rocket launchers and ammunition needed to supply Hamas. It's not the same effort as removing Hamas completely, but it does cripple them significantly.
There is nothing to be gained from killing Israelis.
 

Chichikov

Member
No.
That the situation wasn't always peaceful.
The Palestinians pretty much did nothing for the first 20 years after 1948.
The West Bank and Gaza were for the most part peaceful for the first 20 years after 1967.
The idea that the Palestinians would have achieved anything if they just sat in quiet for a few more decades is ridiculous.


The bombs take out rocket launchers and ammunition needed to supply Hamas. It's not the same effort as removing Hamas completely, but it does cripple them significantly.
There is nothing to be gained from killing Israelis.
It is an official policy of Israel to topple Hamas.
In this operation, Israel had destroyed houses of Hamas members that had no rockets/ammunition/bombs in them. It was done by Israel's own admission as a punitive action.
 
The bombs take out rocket launchers and ammunition needed to supply Hamas. It's not the same effort as removing Hamas completely, but it does cripple them significantly.
There is nothing to be gained from killing Israelis.

That's incorrect. Their prime goal is to eradicate Hamas. It has nothing to do with just defending themselves, and there are almost 200 dead Palestinians (most of which were Civilians with no ties to Hamas) that beg to differ with your conclusion that they are only targeting weapons caches.
 

ramuh

Member
Have there been any significant rockets attacks from the West Bank since this conflict flared up?

Also I read a Washington Post article talking about the rockets used to fire into Israel. Didn't know that the main explosive ingredient was sugar and fertilizer. Oh and ball bearings. Cost= 4 dollars total. Cost of each Iron Dome rocket was over a thousand.
 

elhav

Member
Gaza Cease-Fire Dynamics Explained: What Cease-Fire will Work?

Excellent piece on this conflict and former conflicts and the trend that the IDF follow with cease-fires and the breaking of them afterwards.

Understanding what happened in the second Intifada can explain to you why Israel is not likely to agree to Hamas' terms for a ceasefire.

Here is a full read on wiki http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada

Hamas was the leading group to send suicide bombers on Israel, while using the weapons that were given to the Palestinians after the Oslo agreements.

Operation Homat magen eventually sto0ed the suicide bombings, obviously via occupation of Palestinian lands. But what else could Israel do? If Israel would grant Hamas areas to enter freely, who can say what they will do?
 
If anyone wants to see how much power Israel/AIPAC/whomever has over the US government, just look at what transpired at the annual White House Iftar last night. SMH.
 
If anyone wants to see how much power Israel/AIPAC/whomever has over the US government, just look at what transpired at the annual White House Iftar last night. SMH.

Or the fact that the US and Israel were 2 of only 9 countries in the UN to vote against Palestine being recognized as an observer state.
 

kmag

Member
"we refuse to negotiate with terrorists"
Hamas is the worse group to discuss peace. Get rid of them and their weapons, there will be peace.

If only there was another group of peaceful Palestinian's on another piece of land, kowtowing to all of Israel's demands to which the Gazans could look to.

Oh wait.

graph1.png


Settlement construction in Judea and Samaria (West Bank) between 2001 and 2013, per Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics

All "peace" with Israel gets is more stolen land. Israel does not give a flying fugg about peace, it's always been about the land it's sky pal promised them.

People forget that the Palestinians spent nearly 40 mostly peaceful years trying to stop Israel stealing their land, it just got them more stolen land.
.
 
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