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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza

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efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
Is it not a scummy thing to do?

of course it is, but I'm pretty sure you know that's not the point.

Tell me then. You rationalized their behavior as a conditioning in a war zone. What level of action is acceptable for a Gazan when the conditions they endure every day is orders of magnitude more horrific than anything an Israeli has experienced since since the 2005?
The level that is acceptable to me as an outsider is pretty much the same level someone who's actually living through these events feels is acceptable.
You see, that's where I'm different from you. I don't decide on some arbitrary level of morality in a vacuum and then go and judge people in the real world according to my made up value system.

Unfortunately, when you're a reporter working for a company the same rules don't exactly apply. You're expected to show a minimal level of restraint and any good reporter knows this.
 

Freeman

Banned
It's really appalling just how inherently dishonest the media is when reporting on this violence. They still speak of it in terms that suggest an even handed conflict between two credible militaries. Of course, it's more like a civilian police force cracking down on gang violence in a poor minority neighborhood. The sad thing is the LAPD and drug funded gangs are on much more even footing than the Israelis and the Palestinians. Even then, the LAPD doesn't bomb and murder hundreds of civilians when going after crime.

There is no one launching rockets in LA.

Israel shouldn't do anything? What other country in the world would even consider not doing anything? Israel will always look bad regardless and the Palestinians will always pay the highest price, while only the likes of Hamas will benefit from all this.

Funny that people blame the media and some conspiracy to cover facts, when they themselves are completely biased, just look at this thread and how many times people put words in other people's mouths.
 
For the record, I dont think she should have tweeted Scum, only because it got her canned. She knew better. I wish she got more involved and continue her reporting so we can see more despicable behavior from Israli side. You can bet that the person who will replace her will not have such inside reporting.
 

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
For the record, I dont think she should have tweeted Scum, only because it got her canned. She knew better. I wish she got more involved and continue her reporting so we can see more despicable behavior from Israli side. You can bet that the person who will replace her will not have such inside reporting.

for the record, she wasn't canned, but transferred, and whoever ordered it acted unprofessionally.
 

LNBL

Member
For the record, I dont think she should have tweeted Scum, only because it got her canned. She knew better. I wish she got more involved and continue her reporting so we can see more despicable behavior from Israli side. You can bet that the person who will replace her will not have such inside reporting.

She has been transfered to Moscow, Russia
 

Dude Abides

Banned
There is no one launching rockets in LA.

Israel shouldn't do anything? What other country in the world would even consider not doing anything? Israel will always look bad regardless and the Palestinians will always pay the highest price, while only the likes of Hamas will benefit from all this.

Funny that people blame the media and some conspiracy to cover facts, when they themselves are completely biased, just look at this thread and how many times people put words in other people's mouths.

Really appreciate the irony.
 

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
Ah, she didnt get fired. But the point still stands. She was removed from a position where she could have spread more awareness.

Completely agree, and that was the point I was trying to make a page ago. Too many people are acting out of emotion and it only hurts this conflict.
 
France Bans Pro-Palestine Protests Amid Increasing Violence

Palestine supporters have been banned from staging protests in France after violence erupted in Paris during a march.

Clashes broke out after thousands of pro-Palestine supporters marched through Paris, calling for Israel to stop its airstrikes on Gaza. Small groups of demonstrators attacked some synagogues, Jewish stores and neighbourhoods.

Sofiane Benzaroual, a 22-year-old who took part in the protest, said the violence against synagogues "tarnished the Palestinian flag, because the majority of Palestinians want peace, they don't want violence".

Militants from the Jewish Defence League were also involved in violence against pro-Palestinian demonstrators, head of France's leading Jewish organisation Roger Cukierman told AP.

He said the league adopted violent methods and provoked pro-Palestinian protesters.
 

Pollux

Member
Let's make the vatican international territory while we're at it.
What does the Vatican have to do with this?
You have to go waaay back to understand it completely, but for a more modern understanding of why Jerusalem is 'divided' you would only need to go back to the 1st world war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine

And work your way forward from there.

And thanks for the link.

And everyone else, thanks for the responses.
 

RiZ III

Member
Israel Is Making A Huge Mistake With Its Ground Offensive Into Gaza
http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-ground-offensive-strategic-mistake-2014-7

Israeli ground troops are moving into Gaza. From a purely tactical and short-term view, it makes sense. From a strategic and medium-to-long-term view, it’s crazy.
The short-term outlook has a certain clarity. Hamas militants are firing rockets into Israel. There’s no dealing with Gaza’s government, since its leaders are Hamas militants. Retaliating with air strikes doesn’t finish the job and leads to horrible errors. So, let the tanks roll.

But let’s say an invasion crushes Hamas, a feasible outcome if the Israeli army were let loose. Then what? Either the Israelis have to re-occupy Gaza, with all the burdens and dangers that entails—the cost of cleaning up and providing services, the constant danger of gunfire and worse from local rebels (whose ranks will now include the fathers, brothers, and cousins of those killed), and the everyday demoralization afflicting the oppressed and the oppressors. Or the Israelis move in, then get out, leaving a hellhole fertile for plowing by militias, including ISIS-style Islamists, far more dangerous than Hamas.

Either way, what’s the point? In an excellent online New Yorker article, Bernard Avishai, a longtime journalist and business professor at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, recalls former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert telling him “that he launched his 2008 Gaza operation in part to strengthen Mahmoud Abbas, the President of the Palestinian Authority, with whom he was advancing two-state negotiations.” The tactic didn’t work then, and it certainly wouldn’t work now, given that there are no such talks or even the prospect of any.

In the abstract, it’s shrewd to play Gaza’s radical Hamas against the West Bank’s more moderate Palestinian Authority, but at the moment, Israel is offering the latter no rewards. Abbas would like to play along with this game—he has in the past—but Israel has called off peace talks, continues expanding its settlements, and has not remotely backed away from its humiliating fences and checkpoints. In short, Israel has provided nothing that might lead Gaza residents to envy a West Banker’s life to the point of pressuring or toppling their own leaders. Or, to put it another way: Israel has done nothing that might equate the weakening of Hamas to the strengthening of Abbas.

Seeing his leverage slip away, Abbas took steps in late May to form a unity government joining the West Bank and Gaza. The idea was to co-opt and thus weaken Hamas. But Netanyahu, fearing that Hamas would exploit the arrangement to its advantage, condemned the move and shut down diplomatic forums with Abbas. Netanyahu’s fears might be valid, but by cutting Abbas off (thus making it harder for Abbas to offer his people an alternative to Hamas), he’s helping to make the worst fears come true.

The Israeli government seems to have forgotten how to think strategically; at the very least, they have a self-destructive tendency to overplay their hands. For instance, in 2006, when Hezbollah made incursions into Israel from southern Lebanon, the entire Arab League condemned the action—an unprecedented act—and Egypt offered to host a summit where the League would consider actions. But then, Israel escalated the conflict, retaliating with massive, disproportionate air strikes, turning Hezbollah into local heroes and, more seriously, alienating the neighboring Arab states. Egypt called off the summit; the chance for a genuine strategic pivot was blown.

Now they’re blowing it again. Until this conflict with Gaza, Israel had been enjoying a level of security it hadn’t seen in many years. Terrorist attacks from the West Bank are all but nonexistent. Its enemies to the north—Syria, Hezbollah, and a gaggle of Islamist terrorist movements—are embroiled in their own wars with one another. Egypt is once again in the firm grip of a military government committed to putting down the Muslim Brotherhood and its allies (including Hamas). Iran has—at least for now—frozen its nuclear program, as a result of negotiations led by the Obama administration. And speaking of the beleaguered President Obama, the Iron Dome anti-missile shield, whose production he greatly accelerated, has shot down the few dozen—out of several hundred—Hamas rockets that would have exploded in Israeli cities.

As a result, Hamas’ rockets—most of which have landed in the middle of nowhere—have killed just one Israeli, while Israeli air strikes have killed more than 200 Palestinians and wounded another 1,500-plus, most of them civilians, many of them children, including the four children whose deaths while playing on the beach were captured by photographers on the scene.

Fatality ratios mean little up to a point, but a 200-to-1 ratio seems awfully disproportionate. Israeli bombs have struck 1,500 targets in Gaza so far—another remarkable fact: Who knew there were 1,500 militarily legitimate targets in that tiny, impoverished strip of land?

Instead of capitalizing on Israel’s unusually strong strategic position, Netanyahu risks squandering it—destroying what little support he has in the West and making it hard for Arab governments that share his interests (Egypt, Jordan, and, even now, the Palestinian Authority) to sustain their tacit alliances.

In February, Secretary of State John Kerry publicly stated that a failure to negotiate with the Palestinians would “intensify” the international boycott of Israeli goods. Israeli officials and Jewish-American spokesmen accused Kerry of “anti-Semitism,” a preposterous charge. Kerry wasn’t endorsing the boycott; he was only making a factual statement, and he was right.
On Tuesday, the White House issued a statement supporting Israel’s right to self-defense but urging Netanyahu to “make every effort to avoid civilian casualties”—and that was before the photos of the four Palestinian boys struck down on the beach by American-supplied Israeli aircraft.

Two broad trends over the past decade have helped sire this awful state. First, as the veteran Middle East reporter Ethan Bronner noted in the New York Times’ Sunday Review section, there was a time, 20 to 30 years ago, when Israelis and Palestinians shared the same space. They rode the same buses, walked the same streets; Palestinians learned Hebrew, worked for Israeli companies; Israelis took their cars to be fixed by Palestinian mechanics. The sharing was hardly equal; it had a colonial bent. But they knew, and in some cases trusted each other; they were business partners, even friends. That is no longer the case. A generation has grown up with little or no contact. Dehumanization has set in; violence is easier to abide.

Second, when George W. Bush became president, he initiated a hands-off policy in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. No longer would the American president invest time and effort into prolonged, usually fruitless peace talks. No longer would an American envoy be phoned on a Sunday afternoon to settle a dispute at some checkpoint between a Palestinian motorist and an Israeli guard. The problem was, that was how matches were put out during the presidencies of Bush’s father and Bill Clinton. With the firemen gone, the flames spread.

The nadir of this non-policy came in 2006, during the Palestinian territories’ first parliamentary elections. As I reported in my 2008 book Daydream Believers, Deputy Secretary of State Robert Zoellick advised his boss, Condoleezza Rice, to nudge the Israelis into easing up on a few border crossings in the territories and letting Abbas take the credit. Zoellick figured that might help Abbas win a huge majority over Hamas in the election. Rice refused, saying the United States shouldn’t put its thumb on the scales. She seemed to believe—and Bush definitely did—that elections themselves were a democratizing force and that, if you opened the polling stations, freedom would flow in. Hamas won the election. One result is what we’re seeing now.

Hamas is hardly blameless in this conflict, and the Israelis can’t be blamed for doing everything they can to stop a terrorist regime on their doorstep from firing rockets into their territory.

But it’s interesting that some of the most senior former Israeli intelligence officials have urged Israeli leaders to choose peace talks over war. In the stunning 2013 documentary The Gatekeepers, six former commanders of Shin Bet, Israel’s Secret Service, speak on camera, on the record, making just such a plea. They are hardly peaceniks. One of Shin Bet’s main missions is to infiltrate the Palestinian territories and root out terrorist cells. It was, and is, brutal work, and none of the commanders makes any apologies for it. But those who infiltrate a society often learn how it works: its culture, values, fears, and motives. They don’t condone or sympathize with what the terrorists do, but they understand its linkage to living under occupation—and they’ve concluded that this condition must end, unless Israel wants to face endless war.

Some Israeli critics of The Gatekeepers scoffed that none of these ex-commanders expressed such a view when they were arresting and killing militants with gusto. That’s probably true. The everyday pressure of fighting, policing, and—in the cabinet’s case—governing often rivets one’s eyes to short-term fixes, and away from long-term consequences or strategic calculations.

The Israeli leaders need an outsider to broaden their view, and that outsider can only be the United States. Exhausted as Kerry must be in his travels, and belabored as Obama must feel in his entire relationship with Netanyahu (and much else going on in the world), both need to immerse themselves in this crisis, work with Egypt to impose or cajole a cease-fire, then get Israel to realize its momentary strategic advantage and the need to seize the moment before it passes. That has to involve renewed negotiations for a two-state solution (even if the talks go nowhere), coupled with a freeze on settlements (in part to show good faith, in part because it’s the right thing to do), and a lavish program of aid and investment in the West Bank (to make it a showcase for Gazans seeking an alternative to their rulers who want only war).

It’s a large package, but the alternative is to watch Israel roll its tanks all the way into Gaza—and to lose a lot more than it might gain.

Again pointing out how insane this whole situation is and so much of this mess is caused by Israel's own policies under Netanyahu.
 

Goliath

Member
I think people have an unrealistic response to how CIVILIANS react to a war situation. I think part of that is because most people are or will never be in this situation. Their battles are fought far far away where they only see what the military allows reporters to see.

But you can believe that if a war is fought somewhere close where they can sit at lawn chairs from a distance and watch people they consider the aggressors get bombed and watch rockets fly in the sky they will....just like how they slow down to see grizzly accidents on the road.

There is nothing gross about civilians cheering their side on as they bomb who they consider their enemies. In a situation like that when fear and emotions are high it's a very normal response. Remember these teens have MANDATORY enlistment into the army. That means these teens have friends, have been or will be putting themselves at risk serving their country and protecting Israel from attacks. That is a feeling most people can't relate to unless you have served.
 

StuKen

Member
of course it is, but I'm pretty sure you know that's not the point.


The level that is acceptable to me as an outsider is pretty much the same level someone who's actually living through these events feels is acceptable.
You see, that's where I'm different from you. I don't decide on some arbitrary level of morality in a vacuum and then go and judge people in the real world according to my made up value system.

Unfortunately, when you're a reporter working for a company the same rules don't exactly apply. You're expected to show a minimal level of restraint and any good reporter knows this.

Not arbitrary, try basic Kantian morality and ethical reciprocity. No measure of Israeli policy against the Gazans fulfils any aspect of it. But if you go with your ethics of the moment lets try it in a few historical contexts. Does your subjective morality of the victor save you as you side with the Stalinist purges or the Khmer Rouge butchering those "intellectuals". Those victors had a pretty high bar as to what "acceptable" is. I guess those subjectivist morals of your don't allow for measure of morality against something as simple as basic human empathy though.
 

nib95

Banned
Of course it's a human response. Why are misbehaving kids cheering the Iron Dome defense system not seen in the same context?

I'd actually like to go back to this post. I was thinking about it and realised how it was yet again another prime example of how many on here skew and distort the facts presented, misdirect and/or assume in order to push a more pro Israeli version of a story.

Why did you assume these people were cheering the iron dome defence system when in both the footage and article, and tweets of the news reporter, it is not only mentioned they were cheering the missiles and rockets fired from Israel in to Gaza, but actually clear to see in the footage itself.

Secondly, from where did you concoct this narrative that the people cheering in this video are children? They don't look like children or kids at all. Some of them young adults at best...

So now I ask you, did you:

A.) Not bother to read the article, tweet or watch the footage, and just pre emptively fabricate your version of this situation against the evidence presented, in order to defend Israel?

Or..

B.) Read the article and tweet, and watch the video, and just go ahead and obfuscate and skew the information either way, again in defence of Israel?

Or..

C.) Something else?

Maybe you could explain your thought and information analysis process, because I'd really like to know.
 

Razgreez

Member
I think people have an unrealistic response to how CIVILIANS react to a war situation. I think part of that is because most people are or will never be in this situation. Their battles are fought far far away where they only see what the military allows reporters to see.

But you can believe that if a war is fought somewhere close where they can sit at lawn chairs from a distance and watch people they consider the aggressors get bombed and watch rockets fly in the sky they will....just like how they slow down to see grizzly accidents on the road.

There is nothing gross about civilians cheering their side on as they bomb who they consider their enemies. In a situation like that when fear and emotions are high it's a very normal response. Remember these teens have MANDATORY enlistment into the army. That means these teens have friends, have been or will be putting themselves at risk serving their country and protecting Israel from attacks. That is a feeling most people can't relate to unless you have served.

I think you have an unrealistic understanding of how humans, who with all their idiosyncrasies are still relatively compassionate, who are witnessing a live bombing react. These people are despicable and those who defend them... well really how low can you go
 

JordanN

Banned
Hamas are firing some nasty rockets, and some expect Israel not to do anything about this?

Where's the condemnation that all of these rockets have hit civilians? These were never military targets.
i8JoIKk0Hpcrr.jpg

itVL0F8qmTj4K.jpg

ieuh4SNuEjaMA.jpg


The IDF also managed to stop 13 terrorists from breaking through the border at the begging of the ground operation. Again, were they just suppose to break into Israel and shoot up everyone?
 

Buzzati

Banned
There is nothing gross about civilians cheering their side on as they bomb who they consider their enemies. In a situation like that when fear and emotions are high it's a very normal response. Remember these teens have MANDATORY enlistment into the army. That means these teens have friends, have been or will be putting themselves at risk serving their country and protecting Israel from attacks. That is a feeling most people can't relate to unless you have served.

Rationality requires one to be objective. The people who are removed from the situation and are understandably disgusted with those cheering on the death and destruction are the beacons of reason here.

That's why a free press is so important, in the first place.
 

LNBL

Member
Hamas are firing some nasty rockets, and some expect Israel not to do anything about this?

Where's the condemnation that all of these rockets have hit civilians? These were never military targets.
i8JoIKk0Hpcrr.jpg

itVL0F8qmTj4K.jpg

ieuh4SNuEjaMA.jpg


The IDF also managed to stop 13 terrorists from breaking through the border at the begging of the ground operation. Again, were they just suppose to break into Israel and shoot up everyone?

Nobody is giving Hamas a free pass, you should read this thread trough again. The ones responsible for firing those rockets deserve punishment.
So will you now show us your condemnation of Israel for hitting civilians or will you fall back to claiming they were all military targets?
 

LNBL

Member

The father predicted this would happen a few days ago

Abu Khdeir's family appears to have foreseen such a line of defense by the suspected killers. When asked a few days ago by Haaretz about the Israeli legal system, the father of the murdered teen said “I don’t trust them. Not in the least. I am afraid. I am really afraid. I think they will say that [the murderers] were insane and give them a year or two and that’s all.”
 

JordanN

Banned
Nobody is giving Hamas a free pass, you should read this thread trough again.
Really? Then I shouldn't hear about the "resistance" anymore and that Hamas and its weapons should be outlawed.

LNBL said:
So will you now show us your condemnation of Israel for hitting civilians or will you fall back to claiming they were all military targets?
It's hard to know, because the circumstances are very different. I entrust the IDF would avoid hitting civilians without good reason, like any other military would.

Of course, any deliberate attack on civilians should be condemned and they should end future attacks on any hospital (even if Hamas militants are there).
 

LNBL

Member
Really? Then I shouldn't hear about the "resistance" anymore and that Hamas and its weapons should be outlawed.

The ones that are deliberately targeted at civilians should be condemned.

However killing civilians is not the main reason the resistance exists, the resistance exists against the occupation of Gaza by Israel. I'm surprised I have to tell someone that lives or is from the region what the resistance is for and that Gaza is being occupied.
 

Buzzati

Banned
Really? Then I shouldn't hear about the "resistance" anymore and that Hamas and its weapons should be outlawed.


It's hard to know, because the circumstances are very different. I entrust the IDF would avoid hitting civilians without good reason, like any other military would.

Of course, any deliberate attack on civilians should be condemned and they should end future attacks on any hospital (even if Hamas militants are there).

Read a book on foreign policy if you want to know why. There are many theories for why they would attack civilians - the most obvious would be a rational prospect that an attacked civilian population would press for a cessation of hostilities - and to continue the historic status quo. Israel has broken ceasefires before for unprovoked reasons (see: November 4th).

If you disagree with that, it doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is civilians are dying, in outrageous numbers. As per your own insight, If it were not readily obvious that the IDF was doing it on purpose, it would not be any less outrageous.
 
Nobody is giving Hamas a free pass, you should read this thread trough again. The ones responsible for firing those rockets deserve punishment.
So will you now show us your condemnation of Israel for hitting civilians or will you fall back to claiming they were all military targets?

Yet every single one of your posts for the last 5-6 pages have openly attacked Israel under the guise they actually want to kill civilians, while completely downplaying, ignoring and defending the extremely well documented and proven tactic of Hamas' propaganda and lying.

You can laugh all you like at Israeli pitiful propaganda, however they have ten fold more credibility that Hamas has. Yet you ignore this jumping on every image, every tweet, every fb post as if pure fact. Hamas are a lying propaganda machine and you do not acknowledge this with any of their claims.

Hamas wants this invasion because they want picture of dead children to post. That is a fact. It is their primary tactic to fight against Israel. Dead children and dead families and dead Palestinians. That is what they want.

That is who they are and that is why the world ignores their plight. They are the reason Israel responds, they are the reason Israel bombs, they are the reason people die. They know this and they want this. Dead Palestinians.

Yet you only want to call Israel out. It's disgusting.

Israel has a right to defend itself. To defend itself against lethal rockets. It doesn't matter how infrequent they hit their targets. All it takes it one. One rocket is a declaration of war and in war people die. This is a fact.

Hamas does not have the right to terrorise civilian populations because of a territorial dispute. Settlements are bad. But firing rockets into Israel are on a whole new level of international criminality. The Palestinian people have more than enough support to stop settlements in the West Bank. But their cause is flattened by violent acts against civilians. End of story.

Settlements do not justify terrorist behaviour. There is never a justification for terrorism. It is utterly despicable people in this thread are trying to justify the indiscriminate attack and attempted murder of a civilian population.

And no targeted military action from Israel is not terrorism. It is war, and in war people die. Israel has a uniformed army. Israel attempts to follow the Geneva convention, it follows unprecedented tactics to minimise civilian casualties, yet innocent people will still die. This is a fact of war and if Hamas is more than happy to start one, then they share just as much of the blame for their deaths. So yeah Israel royally fucked up by killing those children on the beach. Yet I only see condemnation for Israel, never once is Hamas blamed for constantly dragging their land into conflict.
 

Toxi

Banned
Translation: "Both sides are bad, so support Israel only."
The most frustrating thing about the conflict. Somehow, the prevalent pro-Israel propaganda in the US is that both sides are bad, so we shouldn't judge, except when our government supports Israel, which we shouldn't question because that's anti-Israel.

Fuck the pro-Israel lunatics here.
 

JordanN

Banned
If you disagree with that, it doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is civilians are dying, in outrageous numbers. As per your own insight, If it were not readily obvious that the IDF was doing it on purpose, it would not be any less outrageous.

There are over 15,000 soldiers who were called up for Gaza. It's cynical to think everyone of them wants to kill civilians.

Like, how does that logic unfold? If Israel only wanted to kill civilians, why do they act with extreme restraint? There was a ceasefire, Israel gave Hamas 48 hours to comply and even more. What kind of country says "we want to kill civilians, so we'll give you time to arm yourselves?"

I don't deny there are morons in every army who ruin it for everyone and I wish they were arrested. But I can't buy this idea that an army of 200,000 who follow a military hierarchy (as in, they can't act without any orders) can just kill civilians deliberately, all the time.
 

Opto

Banned
Hamas and Israel's administration need each other in order to keep the status quo. They exchange fire, and while Gaza has significantly more people die, it just further divides Palestinians and Israelis.

However, Israel has much more security and resources than Palestine. They can help provide a better life for the Palestinians or politically help more moderate voices in Palestine, but that's not what Israel wants, because the administration would lose its popular hardline support.
 

LNBL

Member
Yet every single one of your posts for the last 5-6 pages have openly attacked Israel under the guise they actually want to kill civilians, while completely downplaying, ignoring and defending the extremely well documented and proven tactic of Hamas' propaganda and lying.

You can laugh all you like at Israeli pitiful propaganda, however they have ten fold more credibility that Hamas has. Yet you ignore this jumping on every image, every tweet, every fb post as if pure fact. Hamas are a lying propaganda machine and you do not acknowledge this with any of their claims.

Hamas wants this invasion because they want picture of dead children to post. That is a fact. It is their primary tactic to fight against Israel. Dead children and dead families and dead Palestinians. That is what they want.

That is who they are and that is why the world ignores their plight. They are the reason Israel responds, they are the reason Israel bombs, they are the reason people die. They know this and they want this. Dead Palestinians.

Yet you only want to call Israel out. It's disgusting.

Israel has a right to defend itself. To defend itself against lethal rockets. It doesn't matter how infrequent they hit their targets. All it takes it one. One rocket is a declaration of war and in war people die. This is a fact.

Hamas does not have the right to terrorise civilian populations because of a territorial dispute. Settlements are bad. But firing rockets into Israel are on a whole new level of international criminality. The Palestinian people have more than enough support to stop settlements in the West Bank. But their cause is flattened by violent acts against civilians. End of story.

Settlements do not justify terrorist behaviour. There is never a justification for terrorism. It is utterly despicable people in this thread are trying to justify the indiscriminate attack and attempted murder of a civilian population.

And no targeted military action from Israel is not terrorism. It is war, and in war people die. Israel has a uniformed army. Israel attempts to follow the Geneva convention, it follows unprecedented tactics to minimise civilian casualties, yet innocent people will still die. This is a fact of war and if Hamas is more than happy to start one, then they share just as much of the blame for their deaths. So yeah Israel royally fucked up by killing those children on the beach. Yet I only see condemnation for Israel, never once is Hamas blamed for constantly dragging their land into conflict.

"Yet you ignore this jumping on every image, every tweet, every fb post as if pure fact. Hamas are a lying propaganda machine and you do not acknowledge this with any of their claims. "

Oh by all means, please link me to posts in which I use Hamas propaganda sources. Or do you regard the journalists, world press and people that are sharing with the world as Hamas propaganda?

Your whole rant above is based on you saying that I am defending Hamas propaganda and me blaming Israel for killing these civilians. I don't give a shit about Hamas and I don't give a shit about the IDF. What I do care for are the civilians in Gaza and the innocent lives that are paying the price for this dispute, never have I claimed that Hamas does not fire from densily populated places. However, what I DID do is question the sources when the much used phrase "they were protecting weapon installations" was used to justify attacks in Gaza. The fact remains that Israel is firing rockets into Gaza which have resulted in 200+ deaths. Even in the post you quoted I say that Hamas militants that fire upon civilians need punishment. Turn and twist all you like, the blame does not only fall on Hamas.

This personal attack on my posts in this thread won't change my opinion and if you can't handle the truth I suggest you don't read or reply to my posts.
 

AlphaSnake

...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Larry David should be the Prime Minister of Israel.

He'd encourage Israelis and Palestinians to have sex with each other and bury their hatred, or turn it into dirty talk in bed.

Seriously, watch the Palestinian Chicken episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm. It's some of the best comedy you'll ever see in your life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmui1Jo-FaE
 

Freeman

Banned
The most frustrating thing about the conflict. Somehow, the prevalent pro-Israel propaganda in the US is that both sides are bad, so we shouldn't judge, except when our government supports Israel, which we shouldn't question because that's anti-Israel.

Fuck the pro-Israel lunatics here.

I'm not even american and you are concluding all that from a "translation" that has little to do with what I said. Where I live the propaganda is likely way more anti-Israel than anything, Hamas gets what he wants and most of what we see on TV are the shocking image without much context given.

I don't want to witness the day US pulls support from Israel.

Also, if Israel wants to kill civilians as people here suggest, they are surprisingly inefficient at it.
 

Buzzati

Banned
There are over 15,000 soldiers who were called up for Gaza. It's cynical to think everyone of them wants to kill civilians.

Like, how does that logic unfold? If Israel only wanted to kill civilians, why do they act with extreme restraint? There was a ceasefire, Israel gave Hamas 48 hours to comply and even more. What kind of country says "we want to kill civilians, so we'll give you time to arm yourselves?"

I don't deny there are morons in every army who ruin it for everyone and I wish they were arrested. But I can't buy this idea that an army of 200,000 who follow a military hierarchy (as in, they can't act without any orders) can just kill civilians deliberately, all the time.

It's an extraneous argument at this point. I don't need to be shown IDF's youtube where they claim they're walking on egg shells while methodically bombing the territories. Just look at the statistics. If your response is, "Well, people die in war." Then we have nothing to say to each other. You want a normative, value-specific, reason for why a military would show little restraint in preventing civilian deaths. I promise you that you'll find that answer if you look for it. In the 70's, the US used agent-orange on civilians in south vietnam. Israel has admitted to using human shields in the 2006 Lebanon war. It isn't debated - they used them. If they didn't deliberately target civilians, they didn't care about the populated area they were in anyway. There were incredulous people looking for normative, value-specific reasons for why civilians were killed in those instances. When they couldn't find them, they used the "war is war" line.
 

JordanN

Banned
By the way, speaking of the death toll: IDF has tanks, artillery, fighter jets, cruisers but only 200 people die. Yet more civilians have died in surrounding middle east conflicts, usually having nothing more than ak-47's or home made bombs.

Again, what does this say about the war in Gaza? Either Israel must have some really shitty weapons or they fight like stormtroopers.

Or maybe, Israel does attempt safeguarding civilians from danger.

Edit: Some people still don't get it. Refer to this, and try and tell me I'm focused on deaths.

Edit2: Holy crap, I even made the same post, a few posts down.
 
By the way, speaking of the death toll: IDF has tanks, artillery, fighter jets, cruise ships but only 200 people die. Yet more civilians have died in surrounding middle east conflicts, usually having nothing more than ak-47's or home made bombs.

Again, what does this say about the war in Gaza? Either Israel must have some really shitty weapons or they fight like stormtroopers.

playing the "it is worser here" card is not something that would justify the means

those other things are terrible, yes but trying to excuse other deaths is not morally correct



just stop and think of what you just said
 

Toxi

Banned
By the way, speaking of the death toll: IDF has tanks, artillery, fighter jets, cruisers but only 200 people die. Yet more civilians have died in surrounding middle east conflicts, usually having nothing more than ak-47's or home made bombs.

Again, what does this say about the war in Gaza? Either Israel must have some really shitty weapons or they fight like stormtroopers.
"only 200 people die"

Holy shit.

I'm not even american and you are concluding all that from a "translation" that has little to do with what I said. Where I live the propaganda is likely way more anti-Israel than anything, Hamas gets what he wants and most of what we see on TV are the shocking image without much context given.

I don't want to witness the day US pulls support from Israel.
I wasn't really referring to your post, I was venting about how the problem is often seen here. Media, education, conversations with peers, it's all the same bullshit about how "we can't do anything because they're in an eternal war and are both bad but please oh please don't mention how the US supports Israel."

Sorry.
 

RiZ III

Member
Hamas are firing some nasty rockets, and some expect Israel not to do anything about this?

Where's the condemnation that all of these rockets have hit civilians? These were never military targets.

The IDF also managed to stop 13 terrorists from breaking through the border at the begging of the ground operation. Again, were they just suppose to break into Israel and shoot up everyone?

What do you mean? Of course there is condemnation. Israel has been given a free pass to go and bomb everyone over there now. What else could you want??
 

JordanN

Banned
playing the "it is worser here" card is not something that would justify the means

those other things are terrible, yes but trying to excuse other deaths is not morally correct



just stop and think of what you just said

It's not "it's worser" but there's no logical connect to say IDF is composed of crazed killers but the numbers don't add up. It would only be an incompetent army who has these weapons yet a ton of restraint is shown.

We do know armies can inflict a shit ton more damage in war time so what makes the IDF so special if they don't act like them?
Are you really trying to justify those deaths by saying that not enough people have died compared to what's going in other parts of the world...goodness.
Where is my post justifying anything?
 

Linkhero1

Member
By the way, speaking of the death toll: IDF has tanks, artillery, fighter jets, cruisers but only 200 people die. Yet more civilians have died in surrounding middle east conflicts, usually having nothing more than ak-47's or home made bombs.

Again, what does this say about the war in Gaza? Either Israel must have some really shitty weapons or they fight like stormtroopers.

Are you really trying to justify those deaths by saying that not enough people have died compared to what's going in other parts of the world...goodness.
 
I don't deny there are morons in every army who ruin it for everyone and I wish they were arrested. But I can't buy this idea that an army of 200,000 who follow a military hierarchy (as in, they can't act without any orders) can just kill civilians deliberately, all the time.
Do you think that the IDF members are authorized to use bombs against Hamas members when they are in their homes with their families or do you think that they give more importance to not killing innocents like the children of Hamas members? I am not talking about the destruction of rockets launch sites which IDF tries to alert civilians before bombing them.

I think that Israel had to do lots of ugly things while they strengthened their defences against terrorists and they should be proud of what they have achieved with the Iron Dome, the wall and all the checkpoints and controls within Israel. But, now that Israel is well protected they should stop their forceful settlements in West Bank. They don't serve to protect Israel and if the Israel government prefers the support of radical Zionists to justice they should bear an international blockade.

I would support the same actions that Israel is doing even with all the civilian causalities if Palestine where an independent country freed from any blockade except in the Israeli land border.
 

kmag

Member
By the way, speaking of the death toll: IDF has tanks, artillery, fighter jets, cruisers but only 200 people die. Yet more civilians have died in surrounding middle east conflicts, usually having nothing more than ak-47's or home made bombs.

Again, what does this say about the war in Gaza? Either Israel must have some really shitty weapons or they fight like stormtroopers.

Only 1 Israeli has died from those Hamas rockets since this all kicked off. Why the fuss bro.

Before you complain it's your logic.
 

JordanN

Banned
If your argument finally dwindles down to "we killed less than the genocidal tyrant next door", you have lost the moral high ground.

So how am I suppose to prove the IDF isn't crazed killers? I'm saying Israel is not genocidal. I point out actual genocidal countries have killed more people.

Yet you want me to believe IDF is still genocidal? You have your mind made up if you think the IDF is a "genocidal tyrant".

I've also said the IDF follows hierarchy and someone else pointed out they follow the geneva convention. Again, there's incompetence if this is all deliberate (which no one here has actually proved).

I have my evidence, where's yours now?
 

Opto

Banned
So how am I suppose to prove the IDF isn't crazed killers? I'm saying Israel is not genocidal. I point out actual genocidal countries have killed more people.

Yet you want me to believe IDF is still genocidal? You have your mind made up if you think the IDF is "genocidal tyrant".

You haven't heard about what Israel does with Ethiopian Jews?
 
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