evil solrac v3.0
Member
∀ Narayan;113893777 said:Indeed.
We do plenty of cool shit already.
what? our brains? big whoop.
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Caterpillar appears as a snake for camouflage
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what? our brains? big whoop.
titiklabingapat
Member
No...they didn't. Noone was deciding anything. Those with the snake head simply didn't get eaten as often, thus passing on thier genes, further refining the snake head look over generations. Birds, for example, didn't choose to grow out wings all those eons ago and start flying. It just so happen that those that started evading predators quicker survived, passing on their genes.
Not to single you out though, but this thread is giving me a headache. I didn't know so many people don't know how basic evolution works, especially on GAF.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Science educations in schools is extremely lacking.
MadSkillzBahamut
Member
I'm sure people that are suggesting that the animals 'decided' to look like a snake are joking, surely you guys must understand that.
I'm not completely convinced that something this specific could happen randomly though, it's slightly too unlikely for my tastes. I'm sure that's what a lot of other people are insinuating with those comments.
I'm not completely convinced that something this specific could happen randomly though, it's slightly too unlikely for my tastes. I'm sure that's what a lot of other people are insinuating with those comments.
Confirms gaf is an American website after all
It's not random. The small mutations that occur are random, but the creatures that look more like snakes propagating their genes more successfully than those that don't isn't random.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
They look like this and there are binders for them.
I forgot all about these, but I totally fuckin had them.
Oh lord, the amount of people in here saying things along the lines of, "how could this possibly evolve?" / "makes me believe in an intelligent designer" is reallly depressing. Shows a very clear lack of understanding of even the most basic fundamentals of evolution.
Evolving a trait like this is much simpler than something like an eye or wings, and we have very strong understandings of how those probably developed.
Evolving a trait like this is much simpler than something like an eye or wings, and we have very strong understandings of how those probably developed.
I have the opposite reaction when I see stuff like this, compared to the 2-3 comments about how this is supposed to make me think of a creator.
Why when people see such complexity do they assume something must have created it? That's the opposite of logical to me. I've had a lot of religious people claim that there's no way I could be an atheist if I really appreciated the beauty of nature; almost offensive.
Or is it that it somehow seems deliberate? But then, why again would a creator choose to make some caterpillars look like snakes, and give other caterpillars a chance to live? It just.. doesn't come to my mind at all that such an incredibly variety of results in nature would be deliberate.. it verifies the randomness of the mutations involved in evolution, and the logic behind why they survive. I think in the end people have trouble fathoming the sheer amount of time that it took to evolve all of the animals on earth.
Why when people see such complexity do they assume something must have created it? That's the opposite of logical to me. I've had a lot of religious people claim that there's no way I could be an atheist if I really appreciated the beauty of nature; almost offensive.
Or is it that it somehow seems deliberate? But then, why again would a creator choose to make some caterpillars look like snakes, and give other caterpillars a chance to live? It just.. doesn't come to my mind at all that such an incredibly variety of results in nature would be deliberate.. it verifies the randomness of the mutations involved in evolution, and the logic behind why they survive. I think in the end people have trouble fathoming the sheer amount of time that it took to evolve all of the animals on earth.
Humans gave up on evolution through natural selection when they invented Medicine.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
We also keep as many people alive as possible which creates more genetic junk and dilutes the stronger genes and traits as time goes on
Amazing.
Also, check this out, in less than 20 generations Hawaiian crickets evolved SILENCE to evade parasitic flies on 2 islands, independently.
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27592656
Also, check this out, in less than 20 generations Hawaiian crickets evolved SILENCE to evade parasitic flies on 2 islands, independently.
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27592656
titiklabingapat
Member
The thing with evolution too is that once something very efficient comes up, it tends to cull the less efficient design out relatively quickly, this is usually the case in a high bio-diversity area like where these caterpillars are. I'm sure these caterpillars only started looking vaguely like snakes, and once one lineage got to this point, it probably made the other local population that only look vaguely snake like extinct.
YesNOnoNOYes
Member
nature is so cool and so weird.
<333
<333
BurnOutBrighter
Banned
It's "hard to believe" because it isn't true. The caterpillar doesn't "grow" a snake head in response to being hunted. The ones that happen to have snake-like markings survive and pass their traits to their offspring.
HerrPalomar
Neo Member
Ha! This is the first thing I thought as well. It seems threads as a whole were a lot better back then... Hell, Gabs was the OT.
It's funny so many people don't see the obvious.
Caterpie is based on a swallowtail caterpillar, another snake mimic.
Same thing really, I just said it in a simple way.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Evolution is a mystery
Full of changes that no one sees!
Full of changes that no one sees!
CountAntonius
Member
Wow it evolved to look like a Pokemon? How does nature know that show exists?It's funny so many people don't see the obvious.
Caterpie is based on a swallowtail caterpillar, another snake mimic.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Guided evolution is amazing isn't it
Guided... by the predators. This specific case isn't that much different than humans breeding various specialized breeds of dogs that look wildly different from each other: in both cases there is a strong external factor filtering which characteristics get passed on.
What a random thread to have. These guys aren't remotely new to science.
I saw one of these in the Amazon when I was doing some research there. They are really cool looking. when they are not as puffed up, the "eyes" of the snake head close. When you touch them, the eyes open and the caterpillar starts to wave its fake snake head around.
I saw one of these in the Amazon when I was doing some research there. They are really cool looking. when they are not as puffed up, the "eyes" of the snake head close. When you touch them, the eyes open and the caterpillar starts to wave its fake snake head around.
DragonGirl
Member
Cosmos plug
the old cosmos evolution episode did a great job of explaining how this sort of thing happens. They used the heike 'samurai' crab as an illustration of the wonders of random mutation and non-random selection.
crabbers who fished off the coast of Japan noticed a samurai face on the back of these crabs, though it was originally mostly in their heads, for luck they threw back the ones that looked the most like a samurai's face, after hundreds of years of this the resemblance became almost uncanny. It is no small wonder that a slightly snake head like appearance would deter more birds or other natural predators of the caterpillar than a slightly less snake head like appearance, and the non random selection pushes towards a striking resemblance.
edit-it looks like the segment is on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIeYPHCJ1B8
the old cosmos evolution episode did a great job of explaining how this sort of thing happens. They used the heike 'samurai' crab as an illustration of the wonders of random mutation and non-random selection.
crabbers who fished off the coast of Japan noticed a samurai face on the back of these crabs, though it was originally mostly in their heads, for luck they threw back the ones that looked the most like a samurai's face, after hundreds of years of this the resemblance became almost uncanny. It is no small wonder that a slightly snake head like appearance would deter more birds or other natural predators of the caterpillar than a slightly less snake head like appearance, and the non random selection pushes towards a striking resemblance.
edit-it looks like the segment is on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIeYPHCJ1B8
Its stuff like this that makes it so much easier to say 'god made them that way.'
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
They look like this and there are binders for them.
I still have my binder full of those. These were awesome.
This shit was Pokemon before pokemon.
Sutton Dagger
Member
For those that don't understand evolution by natural selection, possibly. Even if we didn't have the theory of evolution it still wouldn't be an appropriate response to say 'God did it', as there is no (compelling) evidence to suggest such a thing. These sorts of 'unusual' appearances are exactly what you would expect to see though given population genetics.
DamageControl
Member
Someone delete this topic before Colin Trevorrow reads it.
Mimicry is still pretty wacky. You can look at a mudskipper and see the links in evolution. How does a species evolve into looking identical to another species? did a caterpillar one day by chance mutate a spot and then a million chances later made few more spots shaped to look like a snake/branch etc? And thats purely looks, some of the symbiotic relationships that species have with each other is even more crazy.
Theres the old concept of evolution where animals would evolve out of need(ie a giraffe would evolve a longer neck to reach higher branches). Even that seems to make more sense in this case..
more like giraffes with shorter necks wouldn't reach the branches, starve and get weeded out of the gene pool. That's the dumbed down version, I guess.
The moth is probably a pterodactyl
Mimicry is actually not that difficult to explain. Random mutations are just that, random but variations in carapace shape and color are certainly not uncommon and it takes only small variations within the genome to have pretty big effects on the phenotypes. So yes, the likely route was a minor variation turned on a hormone that controlled a darker pigment in a localized place and was selected for (perhaps not at all as a reaction to predation but for a different reason). These darker spots (whose original formation, again, could have been for some other purpose) warded off a very small number of natural predators that incorrectly identified the caterpillar as not food This slight advantage spread, until it became fixed in the population, then variation after variation over countless generations continued to pile up, all on the success of fooling their natural predators a little bit better than their intraspecies rivals. Before long (well perhaps a little bit after long, depending on your viewpoint) the resemblance to a snake head became extremely strong in this particular case (this also explains all the great mimics). A single feature begins the arms race (I can't stress this enough, that feature does not have to originate from the arms race), and the results snowball.
As to your symbiotes and parasites, these are also rather easy to explain. First you have to understand the idea of a biological niche, and niche exclusion. Basically a niche is the conditions in which a species can survive (fundamental niche) and the conditions and impact a population has in and on it's environment (realized niche). The fundamental niche is always at least slightly larger than the realized niche. Niche exclusion means that overlapping niches will not last. This means that the populations fundamental niche will take on the 'shape' of their realized niche and the population will specialize. If intraspecies competition is high niche exploration (i can't remember if this is an actual term, but it works well enough) will also take place where evolution on the realized niche will push out the fundamental niches surface area into areas that are not already covered by another population (or is covered but not as well) in the ecosystem. Symbiosis happens when the shape of a species fundamental niche intertwines with the shape of another species fundamental niche (if you will) becoming all but inseparable. Parasitism happens when a population exploits a novel niche space by pushing itself into and ultimately becoming dependent on the niche space of another species yet the other species fundamental niche space remains mostly unchanged.
These are all a result of a process that mimics a signaling game that is being driven by random mutation and non random selection
The same way everything else evolves.
Yep. Remember, these lepidoptera have had literally millions of years to make these changes. These aren't monkeys typing on a typewriter, they're still just spots on a caterpillar.
True. And even more amazing that everything happened naturally. Science really is rad.
Old concept of evolution? Or wrong understanding of evolution? The artiodactyla with shorter necks couldn't reach as much food, so died off. The ones with longer necks could, so their genes were passed on. Again, repeat for millions of years.
You're shocked that a caterpillar can evolve to have spots and behavior similar to another animal, but not that humans evolved to have a brain sophisticated enough to invent self driving electric powered automobiles? Ones not really that surprising.
I think he was referring to a Lamarkian model of inheritance, or inheritance of acquired characters. Under this model a giraffe straining to reach the higher leaves would ever so slightly increase the length of his neck, this would then be passed on to the next generation which would do the same. The model predates Darwinian Evolution by some time and was somewhat in fashion before Darwin, and was still being tossed around until Mendel's experiments were rediscovered in the early 20th century.
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