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[WhatNXt]

I'm arguing about whether we can control who draws the line about what beliefs are acceptable enough for someone to be employable if we decide it's okay in any circumstance.

Businesses decide on their own company values, and they usually center around being a respectful, honest, hard working employee that fosters an environment that will be good for that particular business. I'd wager most business owners only care about providing for their families, and their employees; about growth and a decent future for what they work every day to build as their very own. Occasionally you get some crackpot religious fanatic owning a bakery or something, who doesn't want to serve people because they're gay or have too much melanin. You can bet your bottom dollar those prejudices are already influencing their hiring practices - but those businesses will never become a multi million or billion dollar franchise, because they're exclusive, prejudiced and doomed to be as small in profits as the owners are small in mind.

Successful, inclusive businesses, where rational people would want to work - have every right to protect their image, and protect themselves from the absolutely bad-for-business associative poison that is having neo-nazi white supremacists in their ranks.

These people deserve the unemployment line, they deserve to be socially ostracized, they deserve to be forgotten when they finally pass from this world, flushed, down the toilet of history - devoid of all achievement, nameless, remembered only for the fact that society bettered them and progressed in spite of them.

 

[Quixzlizx]

I don't get it. So you don't want people to embrace the "shitty ways" to combat this. But in the next sentence you say that the "admirable ways don't work." So what exactly can people do?

Quietly wait for their turn underneath the axe.

 

[Mahonay]

I realize that I used to be on the opposite side of things like the abortion debate, and used to be in favor of people who support abortions being outed and fired.

At some point, I flipped on that issue and realized how horribly stupid and wrongheaded that was.

And since then I've watched the debacle of feminists getting doxxed and harassed by the alt-right and was completely horrified by that, too.

I don't care how awful people's beliefs are. There are admirable ways to combat extremism, and the are shitty ways to do it. I don't like embracing the shitty ways to do it, because the shitty ways are super easy to co-opt and turn against good people. The admirable ways don't work for horrific worldviews because there's nothing admirable about those worldviews that can make them work.

The key mistake you're making is where you believe Nazism should be on equal ground with things like feminism. One has the purpose of harming other humans, the other has the purpose of uplifting them. Feminism is trying to help people, Nazism is trying to END LIVES.

What are the admirable ways? Please share. How do you suggest we approach people who think all jewish people should die and slavery should be reinstated?

 

[LegendofLex]

I don't get it. So you don't want people to embrace the "shitty ways" to combat this. But in the next sentence you say that the "admirable ways don't work." So what exactly can people do?

The admirable ways don't work for Nazis because Nazis can't use them effectively.

White supremacy depends on violent oppression. It can't work in a non-violent context.

 

[The Broken Ska Record]

I'm kind of struggling* with this. On one hand, I don't like random people getting fired for speech unless they represent the organization (CEO or other high level executive, a PR rep, pedophile-protecting coach, spokesperson, etc...) I recognize it's not a First Amendment issue, but it's still a free speech issue. There are times in history when my speech (such as for equal civil rights regardless of gender, race, sexual/gender identity, etc...) could have gotten me fired.

On the other hand, fuck these manbabies with a loser fetish.

I definitely echo UnemployedVillain's caution regarding accurately identifying the people involved.

It isn't a free speech issue. They were able to expose their beliefs without interference from the government. Free speech does not mean free of consequence.

 

[hawk2025]

I realize that I used to be on the opposite side of things like the abortion debate, and used to be in favor of people who support abortions being outed and fired.

At some point, I flipped on that issue and realized how horribly stupid and wrongheaded that was.

And since then I've watched the debacle of feminists getting doxxed and harassed by the alt-right and was completely horrified by that, too.

I don't care how awful people's beliefs are. There are admirable ways to combat extremism, and the are shitty ways to do it. I don't like embracing the shitty ways to do it, because the shitty ways are super easy to co-opt and turn against good people. The admirable ways don't work for horrific worldviews because there's nothing admirable about those worldviews that can make them work.

The more we rely on the shitty tactics, the more those shitty tactics come to dominate the entire fucking issue. And to date that's just made a bad problem even worse. It's exasperating.

Here's a shitty tactic:

Dumb false equivalencies.

 

[Enduin]

Not that I think it's necessarily cause to not do this as there needs to be repercussions for being fucking Nazis, but I have always been wary of internet justice as there's really no check in place for when someone gets falsely targeted/identified in these kinds of situations. And there have been a few too many instances of innocent people getting publicly humiliated/shamed and their lives turned upside down for perceived wrong doings on the internet over the years. Mob mentality is alive and well on social media, so I don't fault people for being wary or against this kind of stuff.

But they are Nazis, so I'm OK with it here.

I just hope that people are making sure they've got hard evidence and are 100% positive when identifying these individuals before blasting it all over FB and Twitter. As long as they have that by all means go all in on them.

 

[Darryl M R]

Always someone speaking up for the Nazis..fucking insane. Not surprising..

I personally believe that people that defend the indefensible they are defending people they personally know.

The admirable ways don't work for Nazis because Nazis can't use them effectively.

White supremacy depends on violent oppression. It can't work in a non-violent context.

With that logic would you say that the Holocaust happened because the Jews were violent?

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

lol

What's "The Original Man"?

 

[theWB27]

I don't get it. So you don't want people to embrace the "shitty ways" to combat this. But in the next sentence you say that the "admirable ways don't work." So what exactly can people do?

Nothing. They only tell you every way is the wrong way. They try to skirt around it...but they'd rather you leave the Nazi alone and let them be free.

 

[linkboy]

Good.
However... It would be best if these people realized how fucking stupid they are.

Now he's just going to be a bitter racist.

You can hit these people over the head with information, and all you're going to end up with is a moron who still doesn't understand, just with a headache.

These people don't want to learn, they don't care.

To them, the world (for lack of a better term), is black and white. If you're not with them, you're against them. You're the enemy and they generally, truly, believe they're at war (even though the vast majority of them wouldn't last 3 seconds in actual combat).

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

The admirable ways don't work for Nazis because Nazis can't use them effectively.

White supremacy depends on violent oppression. It can't work in a non-violent context.

I literally haven't the slightest clue what you're trying to argue.

 

[psychowave]

stop defending nazis holy fuck

 

[Zeus Molecules]

How you get fired on your day off?

Lmao

 

[zelas]

Give me more!

 

[Mahonay]

stop defending nazis holy fuck

.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I personally believe that people that defend the indefensible they are defending people they personally know.

Yup..

 

[Alucrid]

You can hit these people over the head with information, and all you're going to end up with is a moron who still doesn't understand, just with a headache.

These people don't want to learn, they don't care.

To them, the world (for lack of a better term), is black and white. If you're not with them, you're against them. You're the enemy and they generally, truly, believe they're at war (even though the vast majority of them wouldn't last 3 seconds in actual combat).

yeah, in a world of "fake news" honest discussion with these people is near impossible

 

[FTF]

Good. The more that lose their jobs the better.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

The admirable ways don't work for Nazis because Nazis can't use them effectively.

White supremacy depends on violent oppression. It can't work in a non-violent context.

Wait, so hold up. Are you trying to say that Nazism and white supremacy are fine to tout because more likely than not these people do not have an opportunity to carry out their beliefs? Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[hawk2025]

The guy worked in Berkeley, an immensely diverse place.

Stop pretending you could change his mind.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I understand people uncomfortable with vigilante justice in the sense of trying to get citizens in trouble for their lives outside of work. Truly I understand. I do. Bit these are white supremists and I truly don't give a shit about them. Fuck them. I wouldn't piss in a cup and hand it to these fuckers. So I'm not bothered by this.

 

[ShyMel]

It's great to see racists lose their jobs. No doubt that racist beliefs and ideas would impact how other employees are treated by them, along with customers.

 

[Mahonay]

I understand people uncomfortable with vigilante justice in the sense of trying to get citizens in trouble for their lives outside of work. Truly I understand. I do. Bit these are white supremists and I truly don't give a shit about them. Fuck them. I wouldn't piss in a cup and hand it to these fuckers. So I'm not bothered by this.

It's not even vigilante justice. It's being fired for being an absolute piece of shit.

 

[Ekai]

LOL fuck that guy. Now this is some vigilante shit I can get behind.

Every last one of them should be fired from their jobs.

 

[BitStyle]

The admirable ways don't work for Nazis because Nazis can't use them effectively.

White supremacy depends on violent oppression. It can't work in a non-violent context.

Not in the world where alt-right makes up figmentive conspiracy shit out of thin air. Their propaganda works well enough with us doing nothing, so why continue? Society will have to decide to meld out consequences somehow, especially considering the institutions wont.

 

[AstroNut325]

Did that POS that went on TV get fired yet? Or is he unemployed?

 

[Astral Dog]

Yaaay

 

[SlipperyMoose]

Hmm, I'm always torn with things like this. One one hand their beliefs are reprehensible in my opinion and are disgusting. On the other hand, it's a slipper slope seeking out people and trying to get them fired based off their personal beliefs. Freedom of speech can be conundrum sometimes.

 

[Mahonay]

Hmm, I'm always torn with things like this. One one hand their beliefs are reprehensible in my opinion and are disgusting. On the other hand, it's a slipper slope seeking out people and trying to get them fired based off their personal beliefs. Freedom of speech can be conundrum sometimes.

It's pretty easy actually. Don't be a fucking Nazi if you want to keep your job.

 

[Massicot]

Hmm, I'm always torn with things like this. One one hand their beliefs are reprehensible in my opinion and are disgusting. On the other hand, it's a slipper slope seeking out people and trying to get them fired based off their personal beliefs. Freedom of speech can be conundrum sometimes.

The vast majority of these guys almost certainly are under at-will employment and can be fired for any reason whatsoever without warning.

 

[peter0611]

Cool. Just make sure it's the right damn people.

 

[Mahonay]

The vast majority of these guys almost certainly are under at-will employment and can be fired for any reason whatsoever without warning.

This.

If you want to bring up free speech, well then at-will employment absolutely 100 percent applies here.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

What's "The Original Man"?

It is a reference to humanity being birthed in Africa. Thus all of humanity defended from African (read: black) folk. Some black folk in turn adopt "original man" and similar terms accordingly. Because you know...fairly direct decedents of Africa.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Hmm, I'm always torn with things like this. One one hand their beliefs are reprehensible in my opinion and are disgusting. On the other hand, it's a slipper slope seeking out people and trying to get them fired based off their personal beliefs. Freedom of speech can be conundrum sometimes.

No it isn't. Firing someone for being a Nazi is not a slippery slope. It's not a slope at all, nor is it slippery. It's Nazis running into a glue trap.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

Hmm, I'm always torn with things like this. One one hand their beliefs are reprehensible in my opinion and are disgusting. On the other hand, it's a slipper slope seeking out people and trying to get them fired based off their personal beliefs. Freedom of speech can be conundrum sometimes.

Stop equating the wanting of everyone-not-white dead as being freedom of speech. Freedom of speech does not mean accepting anything and everything under the sun. The year is 2017. The bar is respectable, non-reprehensible and non-violent beliefs. Stop lowering it. Freedom of speech isn't free rein to be an awful human being who wants others dead.

 

[bangbang i'm a timpani]

Hmm, I'm always torn with things like this. One one hand their beliefs are reprehensible in my opinion and are disgusting. On the other hand, it's a slipper slope seeking out people and trying to get them fired based off their personal beliefs. Freedom of speech can be conundrum sometimes.

there is a very large gap between freedom of speech and advocating for domestic terrorism and violence against other people.

 

[Somnid]

I realize that I used to be on the opposite side of things like the abortion debate, and used to be in favor of people who support abortions being outed and fired.

At some point, I flipped on that issue and realized how horribly stupid and wrongheaded that was.

And since then I've watched the debacle of feminists getting doxxed and harassed by the alt-right and was completely horrified by that, too.

I don't care how awful people's beliefs are. There are admirable ways to combat extremism, and the are shitty ways to do it. I don't like embracing the shitty ways to do it, because the shitty ways are super easy to co-opt and turn against good people. The admirable ways don't work for horrific worldviews because there's nothing admirable about those worldviews that can make them work.

The more we rely on the shitty tactics, the more those shitty tactics come to dominate the entire fucking issue. And to date that's just made a bad problem even worse. It's exasperating.

I think most of the posters have simply tacitly accepted that this is a tactic that will be used and while they may disagree with the power ebb and flow that allows it to be used against them, they will have to deal with the consequences whether they like it or not (or more likely they won't but some poor harassment target de jour will). In some ways though this might still be the best we can do because it still depends on mutual agreement. If the alt-right and their friends don't accept it, then this is just what these social wars look like and if you're privileged enough, you stay out of it.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Hmm, I'm always torn with things like this. One one hand their beliefs are reprehensible in my opinion and are disgusting. On the other hand, it's a slipper slope seeking out people and trying to get them fired based off their personal beliefs. Freedom of speech can be conundrum sometimes.

It's not that slippery of a slope. Having an openly declared Nazi as a now public face of your company can be very bad for business. They are very well within their rights to fire these fucks.

 

[Alienous]

Hmm, I'm always torn with things like this. One one hand their beliefs are reprehensible in my opinion and are disgusting. On the other hand, it's a slipper slope seeking out people and trying to get them fired based off their personal beliefs. Freedom of speech can be conundrum sometimes.

People shouldn't have to make the choice between working alongside Nazis or quitting their jobs.

 

[Mahonay]

Cool. Just make sure it's the right damn people.

Pretty easy when there's a photo of you at a Nazi/KKK rally.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

It's not even vigilante justice. It's being fired for being an absolute piece of shit.

I don't disagree but I think the point I'm making is that it's a gray area for people to try and dig up your identity to get you fired or socially unfavourable. But here I just dom't care. If you wanna expose your identity for something so totally trash then you can handle big boy consequences. I understand why some people are uneasy about it. I just dont think this situation is a slippery slope. Pretty plain to me.

 

[theWB27]

How "personal" is a belief if it hinges on eradicating everything you don't agree with?

Beyond that it's pretty messed up that people genuinely argue there is a place for unbridled hate.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

It isn't a free speech issue. They were able to expose their beliefs without interference from the government. Free speech does not mean free of consequence.

This is a tangential, deeper conversation that doesn't really belong here, because again, fuck these manbabies with a loser fetish, but yes there are free speech implications to this. Interference from the government is a First Amendment issue. Free speech is a broader topic that is not confined to government actions, for example Gamergators use misogynistic harassment and threats to attempt to chill certain speech they don't like. No government involved, still a free speech issue.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I'm fine with this as long as its 100% verified or else you are ruining people's lives.

 

[Cyanity]

stop defending nazis holy fuck

👏

 

[RoninChaos]

Quick question, as I'm all for this, but, what is preventing people who marched against these nazis from being erroneously identified and losing their jobs?

 

[kaioshade]

One losing their job is not enough. They need to lose everything. They need to suffer. All of them. They have no value to society and should be treated as such.

 

[entremet]

Hmm, I'm always torn with things like this. One one hand their beliefs are reprehensible in my opinion and are disgusting. On the other hand, it's a slipper slope seeking out people and trying to get them fired based off their personal beliefs. Freedom of speech can be conundrum sometimes.

They have freedom of speech. They didn't get arrested or fined.

Before humans had codified laws we used shaming and ostracization. Looks like we need to get back to that.

 

[Ekai]

One losing their job is not enough. They need to lose everything. They need to suffer. All of them. They have no value to society and should be treated as such.

Mmmmhmm.