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[Elegant Weapon]

This is exactly why people choose to not engage in discussions regarding topics such as these because it just ends up resulting in petty, unnecessary insults. I guess I'll just sit back and let a "real" minority fight for my rights.

No, just keep calling people hypocrite without actually making clear how, because their actions upset what you've been taught is sacred. Just keep calling yourself a minority, like you don't know what actually are.

Keep criticizing people who are doing good work because it upsets people who, depending on what kind of minority you actually are, probably want to kill you.

Nothing to discuss. What you did was shitty

Fuck your status quo. Fuck being a good lil minority that is more worried about law/order and not angering people who already want you dead.

 

[manakel]

Says a lot that with millions of people protesting, you zero in on the few instances of violence or destruction of property.

Uh, you need to reread posts because what I said was sarcasm?

 

[rucury]

Since we're tearing down iconography celebrating tyrannical historical figures (which is great!), is there going to be a point where we can start looking at religion, or is that just permanently off the table? Yes, I'm being serious.

If you all think Columbus is bad, I'd love to tell you about this thing called the Catholic Church.

Gonna be a tricky subject for most, but personally I'm all for the abolishment of religious institutions. Problem is, that is a very unrealistic goal in the short term as opposed to reverting public opinion of a single figure like Columbus.

 

[manakel]

Just keep calling yourself a minority, like you don't know what actually are.

Keep criticizing people who are doing good work because it upsets people who, depending on what kind of minority you actually are, probably want to kill you.



Fuck your status quo. Fuck being a good lil minority that is more worried about law/order and not angering people who already want you dead.

Lmaooo "like you don't know what actually are." and "good lil minority." Your comments are absolutely repulsive. If you think you're going to get ANYONE to see your point of view when you consistently talk down and insult people, good luck. Keep fighting the good fight, man!

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Apparently statues built to glorify specific individuals are our only way of learning history.

I would love to hear from anyone who was taught about Columbus as a figure to never repeat the actions of, instead of being taught to revere him as the man who "discovered" the Americas.

Cause these arguments that statues teach history and we're doomed to repeat it if we don't celebrate genocidal killers is so disingenuous

 

[Akainu]

Fuck him.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Lmaooo "like you don't know what actually are." and "good lil minority." Your comments are absolutely repulsive. If you think you're going to get ANYONE to see your point of view when you consistently talk down and insult people, good luck. Keep fighting the good fight, man!

I'll say this about my comments, they have allowed you to zero in on them instead of the point about how "breaking the law due to moral imperatives" is fucking necessary to advance society.

and that many minorities disagreed with Dr King and his illegal demonstrations but still enjoyed the Civil Rights that he worked for

 

[Mael]

Thats why I give an example of John Cabot who is just as related to the rediscovery of North America by Europeans as Columbus if not more as he actually was the one to get to North America and he has none of immoral baggage that goes with Columbus yet the United States has no statues to him only Canada and England does. Their are decent people in history that could use statues but we choose to errect in the honor of the dishonorable ones.

and I didn't know about that guy!
I'm in favor of moving all celebration to that guy if we absolutely need one.

The alt-left at it again... why do people have to *confirm* Trump talking points this hard? He was literally talking about "Which statue is next?" and now random statues are vandalized.

I mean, if we tear down *all* statues, I would be cool with it, because if we apply the same moral standards, Washington and co. would also have to go. Basically every historical figure in a political function has blood on her / his hands, so why the cherry-picking?

And I picture people wearing Che Guevara shirts doing this kind of stuff... that irony.

If Trump predicted a school shooting you would blame the alt left for not stopping the shooter.
And you DO know that there's a pretty big difference between a traitorous failed insurgency and what the founding father did?
If we go by your bonkers logic you would be ok with erecting a statue to Stalin and Hitler for no other reason that they were historical figures.

 

[Deepwater]

I don't care about the well-being of a statue, but I have the sense to understand that odds are, white nationalists are NEVER going to change their beliefs. That's not who you should be targeting to understand the fucked up things Columbus did. The people you should be targeting are the common American who doesn't know any better and just goes off of what they were taught in school; people can only comprehend and understand what they know. Do you really think you're going to get the common person to understand your plight and the issues you have with Columbus by vandalizing a statue? No. Ive already seen people complaining about this on Facebook who aren't white nationalists by any means. They still think Columbus discovered whatever and blah blah blah. They have no IDEA what he actually did, and you've already tainted the waters and they aren't going to care.

If you go about getting people to see your side by vandalism and destroying property, cool, you do you. But that's not how I operate.

I don't necessarily agree with Elegant Weapon's rhetoric, but maybe you should do some introspection on why you feel so pressed to "not play into white supremacist hands"

Anything colored folk do will be marginalized by those who intend to oppress us. Whether we're violent or non violent, destroying useless statues or not destroying useless statues. If you wait for the average white person to decolonize themselves from white supremacy so that we can all be on the same page, you're playing a losing game.

 

[gutter_trash]

and I didn't know about that guy!
I'm in favor of moving all celebration to that guy if we absolutely need one.


If Trump predicted a school shooting you would blame the alt left for not stopping the shooter.
And you DO know that there's a pretty big difference between a traitorous failed insurgency and what the founding father did?
If we go by your bonkers logic you would be ok with erecting a statue to Stalin and Hitler for no other reason that they were historical figures.

The main reason John Cabot gets little attention is that Americans try to minimize their British past when teaching history by not glorifying any British subject

Even if Cabot was Italian as well

Giovanni Caboto

 

[Loudninja]

Am I suppose to give a damn?

 

[knkng]

For all the bad stuff they did, they sure knew how to build stuff. So leave them alone, please. I live right beneath one of the biggest cathedrals of Europe and it's a marvel to behold every day.

Well, I don't think I'd ever advocate tearing down ancient cathedrals. I differentiate between architecture and iconography, although I guess in the case of the church they are closely tied together. I'm not unreasonable, though, and I do have respect for history.

You can't get rid of religion but you can get people of that religion to help change it.

For sure. And of course, most people of religion are good and have nothing to do with the evils of the past or present. But in the same way that people celebrate Columbus Day with no bad intentions, we are still able to criticize the practice. I always just find it disheartening how any similar discussions surrounding religion is usually shut down as being "edgy" or contrarian or something along those lines.

Anyways, I don't intend to derail this thread, it's just something I've been thinking about with all that's going on recently.

 

[Tonedeff]

Fuck your status quo. Fuck being a good lil minority that is more worried about law/order and not angering people who already want you dead.

Ooh you've convinced me. You're a regular motherfucking freedom fighter. The land promised to niggas is right around the corner thanks to people like you. I can damn near see it in fact...

 

[daviyoung]

Home Alone and Mrs Doubtfire are classics but I wasn't too keen on his later work after Harry Potter. I suppose this is retribution for Pixels.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Ooh you've convinced me. You're a regular motherfucking freedom fighter. The land promised to niggas is right around the corner thanks to people like you. I can damn near see it in fact...

Hey man, let's not fight.

I just honestly believe it's a moral responsibility to break unjust laws. Most revered figures who did fight for our freedoms, broke the law. So, I'm not trying to hear that "it's unlawful" shit, especially when we're talking about monuments to genocidal ethnic cleansers.

 

[A Link to the Past]

This thread is on a downward spiral c_c

 

[manakel]

I don't necessarily agree with Elegant Weapon's rhetoric, but maybe you should"not play into white supremacist hands"

Because I personally believe that we're not gaining any ground by vandalism. Like I've said in that post, white nationalists are not who you should be targeting to see the fault in their beliefs; odds are, they're never going to change them. The person you're trying to understand is the common American who doesn't know any different because of what we're taught in our school system. We all know how easily Fox News and other right wing media outlets twist news, so do you really think vandalizing a statue is going to get the majority of people to look and think "hmm, maybe we SHOULD change the way we teach Columbus in schools!" I personally don't think it will. Of course, that's just my opinion and you're more than welcome to disagree with me. The counterprotests that have taken place recently have done excellent work in getting white nationalism attention and in the public eye to where action has taken place WITHOUT resorting to destruction of property.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

The main reason John Cabbot gets little attention is that Americans try to minimize their British past when teaching history by not glorifying any British subject

Even if Cabbot was Italian as well

Giovanni Caboto

Yep, Its all old American Revolution Era propaganda to defame Cabbot by prentending the colonial era never happened(Hell its still taught super poorly in schools) by instead making up fantastical history with a genocidal maniac as the starting point.

 

[Nathan_Drake]

Since we're tearing down iconography celebrating tyrannical historical figures (which is great!), is there going to be a point where we can start looking at religion, or is that just permanently off the table? Yes, I'm being serious.

If you all think Columbus is bad, I'd love to tell you about this thing called the Catholic Church.

This is my question too. And I am serious. I mean the Church has done horrendous things throughout history. Popes were disgusting in some cases.

Then do you also consider removal of European royalty related buildings, statues, and naming conventions. Colonialism alone is going to absolutely incriminate most countries.

This is an interesting time. If society deems only statues and iconography of current (correct or not I am not making a claim) social views and opinions can stand there will not be much standing.

 

[Nerazar]

If Trump predicted a school shooting you would blame the alt left for not stopping the shooter.
And you DO know that there's a pretty big difference between a traitorous failed insurgency and what the founding father did?
If we go by your bonkers logic you would be ok with erecting a statue to Stalin and Hitler for no other reason that they were historical figures.

Trump didn't predict anything. He's just speaking from his little uneducated heart and hitting the tune of millions of average Americans... and they will double down on his "They want to destroy our culture and our heritage!" rhetoric. I personally don't care about statues or not, but this kind of action does not help the social or left cause or anybody. Tearing down confederate statues is OK now and that's an amazingly huge step... too bad that some violent people went ahead and overstepped the momentum and gave more ammunition to the right-wing people.

I was just applying some logic here: for some people, it's the "founding father" and to some other people it's a "genocidal monster". I don't want to list the things the US (or what Washington created) did to Native Americans or People of Color since then - judging from the "Let's tear down Columbus statues!"-logic, he would have to fall, too. He's the origin of all that racial discrimination after all. And a slave owner, too. It should be easy to tear him down, but some people are actively arguing against it.

That's why I wanted to raise the point that logically speaking, we would have to tear down most statues of politicians in the US. What's holding you back tearing down Washington statues, btw.? Why really stop with him? Search deep in your heart and you will understand why stuff like this will shift people's opinions more to the right. And that was completely unnecessary... you can image how the media will spin it, etc.

 

[gutter_trash]

Yep, Its all old American Revolution Era propaganda to defame Cabbot by prentending the colonial era never happened(Hell its still taught super poorly in schools) by instead making up fantastical history with a genocidal maniac as the starting point.

The main reason why the Anglosphere United States exists rests more on John Cabot than Christopher Columbus.

Present day USA would be a bigger Mexico

 

[Mael]

The main reason John Cabot gets little attention is that Americans try to minimize their British past when teaching history by not glorifying any British subject

Even if Cabot was Italian as well

Giovanni Caboto

i get it's not another thing to thank the XIXth century for...

Because I personally believe that we're not gaining any ground by vandalism. Like I've said in that post, white nationalists are not who you should be targeting to see the fault in their beliefs; odds are, they're never going to change them. The person you're trying to understand is the common American who doesn't know any different because of what we're taught in our school system. We all know how easily Fox News and other right wing media outlets twist news, so do you really think vandalizing a statue is going to get the majority of people to look and think "hmm, maybe we SHOULD change the way we teach Columbus in schools!" I personally don't think it will. Of course, that's just my opinion and you're more than welcome to disagree with me. The counterprotests that have taken place recently have done excellent work in getting white nationalism attention and in the public eye to where action has taken place WITHOUT resorting to destruction of property.

It's a fool's errand to try to work in such a way to not offend the idiots at Fox News and co.
They'll twist and turn people doing community service as evil propaganda if they can help it anyway.
These fuckers reported on this weekend protests like it was the devils' march on society to come and rape their women and steal their properties.
The less we placate them the better.
Property destruction can have its place as a form of protest, I'm not sure I'd start with Christopher Columbus though.

 

[Deepwater]

Because I personally believe that we're not gaining any ground by vandalism. Like I've said in that post, white nationalists are not who you should be targeting to see the fault in their beliefs; odds are, they're never going to change them. The person you're trying to understand is the common American who doesn't know any different because of what we're taught in our school system. We all know how easily Fox News and other right wing media outlets twist news, so do you really think vandalizing a statue is going to get the majority of people to look and think "hmm, maybe we SHOULD change the way we teach Columbus in schools!" I personally don't think it will. Of course, that's just my opinion and you're more than welcome to disagree with me. The counterprotests that have taken place recently have done excellent work in getting white nationalism attention and in the public eye to where action has taken place WITHOUT resorting to destruction of property.

Okay, but Fox News and right wing news are going to portray minorities and distort history ANYWAYS.

Non violent demonstrations during the Civil Rights Movement were portrayed by white media as violent. MLK himself was portrayed to be an instigator of riots.

As long as people oppose white supremacy we're going to be casted out as the villains. So why not take down a statue or two.

 

[GhostWriter24]

I'm late getting in on The Sopranos gif fun.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

I really don't get this "you guys are upsetting the right" as if they aren't already against us.


Yeah, fuck George Washington too. The culture of revering dickheads who owned people should be dismantled.

 

[Tonedeff]

Hey man, let's not fight.

I just honestly believe it's a moral responsibility to break unjust laws. Most revered figures who did fight for our freedoms, broke the law. So, I'm not trying to hear that "it's unlawful" shit, especially when we're talking about monuments to genocidal ethnic cleansers.

That's fine. I honestly might've went too far

 

[Deepwater]

This is my question too. And I am serious. I mean the Church has done horrendous things throughout history. Popes were disgusting in some cases.

Then do you also consider removal of European royalty related buildings, statues, and naming conventions. Colonialism alone is going to absolutely incriminate most countries.

This is an interesting time. If society deems only statues and iconography of current (correct or not I am not making a claim) social views and opinions can stand there will not be much standing.

I think that's something for European countries to figure out for themselves. I think America has a unique history of romanticizing and memorializing blatant white supremacists and it's a lot more relevant because we only have like 300 years of history give or take

 

[Mael]

Trump didn't predict anything. He's just speaking from his little uneducated heart and hitting the tune of millions of average Americans... and they will double down on his "They want to destroy our culture and our heritage!" rhetoric. I personally don't care about statues or not, but this kind of action does not help the social or left cause or anybody. Tearing down confederate statues is OK now and that's an amazingly huge step... too bad that some violent people went ahead and overstepped the momentum and gave more ammunition to the right-wing people.

I was just applying some logic here: for some people, it's the "founding father" and to some other people it's a "genocidal monster". I don't want to list the things the US (or what Washington created) did to Native Americans or People of Color since then - judging from the "Let's tear down Columbus statues!"-logic, he would have to fall, too. He's the origin of all that racial discrimination after all. And a slave owner, too. It should be easy to tear him down, but some people are actively arguing against it.

That's why I wanted to raise the point that logically speaking, we would have to tear down most statues of politicians in the US. What's holding you back tearing down Washington statues, btw.? Why really stop with him? Search deep in your heart and you will understand why stuff like this will shift people's opinions more to the right. And that was completely unnecessary... you can image how the media will spin it, etc.

The reason to tear down the Confederate statues in the US is because they should never have been build to begin with, they're traitors to the USA that actively worked to destroy the country the idiots claim to love.
That is reason enough to destroy them, they weren't fucking Vauban who is probably the only general who could get away with treason to his country.
Why the fuck is there statues of people who worked, fought and killed to destroy the US inside the US?
I would understand these statues in Venezuela as a "fuck you assholes" kind of way, but in the very country they tried to destroy?
Where the fuck is George III's statue on top of the White House then?

 

[Nev]

Hopefully everyone cheering this would be cool with the huge monument to one of the biggest genocidal, psycopath human trash in history (Genghis Khan) in Mongolia being vandalized.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

The main reason why the Anglosphere United States exists rests more on John Cabot than Christopher Columbus.

Present day USA would be a bigger Mexico

Yep lol a very big figure that unless you have an interest in the period you would know fuck all about.

 

[gutter_trash]

I think that's something for European countries to figure out for themselves. I think America has a unique history of romanticizing and memorializing blatant white supremacists and it's a lot more relevant because we only have like 300 years of history give or take

Europeans have gone through secularization, disbanding the clergies from influence of power. Bloody revolutions.

The US does the opposite, tgey obsess seeking approval from religious leaders and mixing politics with pastors

 

[nkarafo]

Hopefully everyone cheering this would be cool with the huge monument to one of the biggest genocidal, psycopath human trash in history (Genghis Khan) in Mongolia being vandalized.

How about the pyramids in Egypt? I wonder when they decide to destroy them for being the ultimate example of monuments built by ruthless kings and their slaves.

 

[Mael]

Hopefully everyone cheering this would be cool with the huge monument to one of the biggest genocidal, psycopath human trash in history (Genghis Khan) in Mongolia being vandalized.

He was the ruler of Mongolia and greatly expanded his country.
Columbus did jackshit and ended up in jail for his troubles, if Khan ended up in a cold cell somewhere there wouldn't be a statue of the guy.

 

[kewlmyc]

Don't commend vandalizing government property, since it just uses tax payer's money to clean it up.


..however, I'm not going to cry myself to sleep that this "American hero" monument was vandalized.

 

[manakel]

It's a fool's errand to try to work in such a way to not offend the idiots at Fox News and co.
They'll twist and turn people doing community service as evil propaganda if they can help it anyway.
These fuckers reported on this weekend protests like it was the devils' march on society to come and rape their women and steal their properties.
The less we placate them the better.
Property destruction can have its place as a form of protest, I'm not sure I'd start with Christopher Columbus though.

This is true. However, I think people forget that there are a large portion of moderates in this country (hell, that's a large reason why the election swung the way it did). They may not watch Fox News per se, but may see this headline and think it's ridiculous. We're never going to get to the point where the history of Columbus is taught accurately and appropriately if you don't convince the people that need convincing. I think people get too wrapped up in this tunnel vision and echo chamber where they aren't thinking rationally about how to appropriately address and approach these issues. People are free to believe and act in any way they see fit, but I personally don't think it's an effective way of changing mass opinion.

 

[Mael]

How about the pyramids in Egypt? I wonder when they decide to destroy them for being the ultimate example of monuments built by ruthless kings and their slaves.

Haven't you heard, they're just big granaries made by Joseph anyway.

 

[Deepwater]

How about the pyramids in Egypt? I wonder when they decide to destroy them for being the ultimate example of monuments built by ruthless kings and their slaves.

I know yall are gonna do this whataboutism but there's a strong likelihood the Pyramids weren't built by (chattel) slaves

 

[Nev]

He was the ruler of Mongolia and greatly expanded his country.
Columbus did jackshit and ended up in jail for his troubles, if Khan ended up in a cold cell somewhere there wouldn't be a statue of the guy.

So we're applying a filter to what historical remains should and should not be destroyed depending on whatever arbitrary reasons or agendas the involved parties want to push. Doesn't sound intelligent and is really telling of humanity's failure as a species.

Also Khan didn't end up in a cold cell because A) those were full of the people from villages and towns he didn't completely obliterate, and B) he was basically god. Or should I say satan.

Even if he died alone in a cold cell, he would still have the 140ft statue.

 

[nkarafo]

I know yall are gonna do this whataboutism but there's a strong likelihood the Pyramids weren't built by (chattel) slaves

Is this theory the only justification for not destroying them, in your opinion?

 

[Mael]

This is true. However, I think people forget that there are a large portion of moderates in this country (hell, that's a large reason why the election swung the way it did). They may not watch Fox News per se, but may see this headline and think it's ridiculous. We're never going to get to the point where the history of Columbus is taught accurately and appropriately if you don't convince the people that need convincing. I think people get too wrapped up in this tunnel vision and echo chamber where they aren't thinking rationally about how to appropriately address and approach these issues. People are free to believe and act in any way they see fit, but I personally don't think it's an effective way of changing mass opinion.

Convincing people is certainly the way to go but trying to act like anything is going to be reported accurately is a fool's errand.
There's better way than random vandalism I agree, but not because FoxNews have something to say about it.

So we're applying a filter to what historical remains should and should not be destroyed depending on whatever arbitrary reasons or agendas the involved parties want to push. Sounds intelligent and mature.

Also Khan didn't end up in a cold cell because A) those were full of the people from villages and towns he didn't completely obliterate, and B) he was basically god. Or should I say satan.

If you remove all contexts everything is equal.
Tear down everything and burn everything because nothing matter anyway.
Columbus didn't accomplish much and was reviled while he was living, hardly a comparison to a living god/devil.
I still haven't a good argument why traitors need their statues though.

 

[zeemumu]

They could do him like they did Benedict Arnold and give him a monument that's just a foot with no name on it.

 

[mavo]

Can anybody explain what Columbus did?

I mean, weirdly enough i feel like Mexico is kinda moving into appreciating some of the conquistadores more, specially Hernan Cortes - which has always been kinda of a controversial figure -

And of course we are filled with monuments to Columbus here (Colón) with many statues and streets all over the country, i think is kinda weird the different views, concerning the history of both countries.

 

[Eidan]

Is this theory the only justification for not destroying them, in your opinion?

Is vandalizing a 200 year old Christopher Columbus statue in Baltimore equivalent to destroying one of the wonders of the world? Tell me the limits of your nuance.

 

[Nev]

If you remove all contexts everything is equal.
Tear down everything and burn everything because nothing matter anyway.
Columbus didn't accomplish much and was reviled while he was living, hardly a comparison to a living god/devil.
I still haven't a good argument why traitors need their statues though.

I don't want or need a Cristopher Colombus statue or memorial or whatever. I don't care. What I'm saying is this kind of behavior accomplishes nothing.

 

[nkarafo]

Is vandalizing a 200 year old Christopher Columbus statue in Baltimore equivalent to destroying one of the wonders of the world? Tell me the limits of your nuance.

No, tell me your limits. When do you decide a monument is evil or recent enough so you can vandalize/destroy it?

 

[Kurdel]

No, tell me your limits. When do you decide a monument is evil or recent enough so you can vandalize/destroy it?

Education and research?

Disregarding that this could be done on a case by case basis and offering the Pyramids as an example makes me think you are arguing in bad faith.

 

[BlitzKeeg]

How about the pyramids in Egypt? I wonder when they decide to destroy them for being the ultimate example of monuments built by ruthless kings and their slaves.

I think the pyramids should remain untouched because nowadays they aren't considered a celebration of the pharaohs. They're a valuable piece of history that doesn't stand for any particular ideology or political stance. They just represent the power of early human civilization. Similar to the Colosseum in Rome. If you look at the history surrounding it, that was a fucked up place where slaves died, but nobody is defending it outside of it's historical significance. They are also considered in context as these structures that were built with slave labor and imperial force.

The only historical significance confederate monuments have is that they prove that the postwar south was horrifically racist and they did everything they could to dehumanize blacks and celebrate the ideas of white supremacy that they fought and lost for. Much like the Columbus statue, they idealize the subjects and ignore all of the horrible things they have fought for and done.

Edit: And, as others have pointed out below, they represent the cancer of racism that still sits at the core of this country today

 

[Deepwater]

Is this theory the only justification for not destroying them, in your opinion?

Well I mean the idea here isn't to remove monuments by "horrible people", it's a symbolic gesture reflecting the systemic differences that have persisted in very recent history. Ghengis Khan was 12th century history, the Pyramids in 2560 BC. If an egyptian wants to make an argument of how the Pyramids reflect systemic injustices today, then yeah sure that's their prerogative.

Columbus? At the end of the 15th century. George Washington? 18th Century. When you still have the United States systematically marginalizing indigenous and black folk, it's very relevant history that echoes today. Which is why monuments to them are pretty gross

 

[Enduin]

So we're applying a filter to what historical remains should and should not be destroyed depending on whatever arbitrary reasons or agendas the involved parties want to push. Sounds intelligent and mature.

Also Khan didn't end up in a cold cell because A) those were full of the people from villages and towns he didn't completely obliterate, and B) he was basically god. Or should I say satan.

The difference is that today there aren't likely any peoples that are actively living under the shadow of Genghis Khan and his actions today in Mongolia or elsewhere in the world resulting in marginalization and inequality.

Unlike Blacks in America and the fallout of the Civil War/Slavery and the continued legacy of the Confederacy and Jim Crow that we are still struggling to rectify to this day. And similarly for Native Peoples who are marginalized all over the Americas and whose struggles and injustices done to them are often rewritten in the history books, if not outright omitted.

The propagation of Columbus as some Age of Discovery hero and discoverer of the Americas and not the brutal and disgusting tyrant he was ushering in half a millennia of death and destruction of Native Peoples does them a disservice today as they still struggle to be recognized and treated fairly in the eyes of the public and the government. In large part due to the ignorance and indifference of the majority.

 

[Mael]

I don't want or need a Cristopher Colombus statue or memorial or whatever. I don't care. What I'm saying is this kind of behavior accomplishes nothing.

Did you see me defend vandalizing Columbus statue somewhere?
He shouldn't have one to begin with but he was a rallying point for Italians coming to the US (which is probably the biggest contribution the guy ever had).
In the end the statue is more like a statue to a pixie or an elf in that it doesn't depict a living person but an idea.
The Confederates?
The only ideas these guys defended were slavery and treason, why the fuck do you want statues celebrating that?