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[Morrigan Stark]

Are the usanian millennials finally discovering how history has always been tragic?

Sophist
Junior Member
(Today, 07:02 AM)

How is ignoring and distorting history preserving it?

If these statues were memorials to the native peoples killed by Columbus, if they were statues depicting his tyranny, his cruelty, or hell, even his basic navigational fuckups, that would be one thing.

But they aren't. They are an intentional misrepresentation of a glorious past that never existed. They are idolatry for a false hero deserving of no such reverence.

"Preserving history" does not mean lying to ourselves and our children about the past, it means facing up to the injustices and monsters that created the world as we know it today.

It really aggravates me when you have people who say we need to keep statues of awful people to "remember history", while they themselves are painfully ignorant of it.

It's almost as if statues don't really teach you shit.

This

If anything, such statues and monuments do the opposite of teaching history. Statues and monuments are often tributes and memorials, not warnings or education about an evil past, and give people a completely wrong idea.

Khufu
Khafre
Menkaure

I could keep going, but I don't have the time to list all of the Egyptian Pharaohs that used slave labor. You can Google it.

The idea that your obfuscating the point on this is baffling. News flash most Kings, Queens, Emperors, Pharaohs, you name it did some horrific shit back in the day. Some just did MORE horrific shit than others.

This thread is weird.

I'm unsure if the slave built pyramids are safe from some of you or the next thing that should be torn apart.

It has been said already but it ought to be repeated that the Egyptian pyramids are not equivalent. First, they weren't build by chattel slaves. Second, they are thousands of years old, and large, majestic buildings and marvels of ancient engineering, not a shitty 200 year old plaque made by some dude.

So enough with the idiotic comparisons, please.

And the first European to rediscover North America who was a contemporary to Columbus was John Cabot. Columbus historical significance is on a large view of the age of discovery and of the history of the Carribean not of North America. It was the John Cabot who put in motion the colonizing of Canada and the US not to mention didn't commit atrocities ,had an awesome beard and wasn't ugly as sin as Columbus is.

Nah that was Samuel de Champlain. ^^ You are right that Cabot was the first (outside of Leif Eriksson whose settlement didn't last) European to reach North America, but as far as I know, he didn't really settle/colonize. Jacques Cartier and, later and on a more permanent/colonial basis, Samuel de Champlain were the first permanent settlers in North America.

And while they weren't exactly perfect either and committed their shares of shit, compared to Colombus they were almost saintly.

Columbus fed babies to dogs

That really says it all, doesn't it? That guy was on par with Hitler. If he had 20th century technology at his disposal he might have done even worse than Hitler tbh.

Good, fuck him and Hernán Cortés since we're at it.

It's funny, as a kid I was reading history books and encyclopedias and I remember reading about Cortés and Pizarro and their atrocities against Aztecs and Incans and being absolutely horrified. And yet none of those books mentioned Columbus in a similar fashion, he was never shown to be as bad... yet all things considered he was arguably even worse. Go figure.

The alt-left at it again...

lmao

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Sophist


Nah that was Samuel de Champlain. ^^ You are right that Cabot was the first (outside of Leif Eriksson whose settlement didn't last) European to reach North America, but as far as I know, he didn't really settle/colonize. Jacques Cartier and, later and on a more permanent/colonial basis, Samuel de Champlain were the first permanent settlers in North America.

And while they weren't exactly perfect either and committed their shares of shit, compared to Colombus they were almost saintly.

Yeah, I’m very interested about reading about Champlain and have a book I been looking at buying for some time. Though I mainly focus on East Asian History in college I'm also a big fan of Early Modern British history and American Colonial Hostory. I would love to read more about the French Colonies as it seems very interesting but so much is in french.

 

[televator]

Just to comment on this: The confederate monuments are cookie cutter figures picked from "monument" catalogs at the time. You see many of the same monuments all over the US. Don't think that they were specially made by artists or anything.

Well that only weakens the argument made by the guy I was posing the question to. That there is some other value to these statues because someone put laborious effort into these monuments of oppression that aggrandize an alternative reality where the people they depict were great heroes.

Actually nevermind, I just read their response. But to clarify my personal opinion, I care very little if a monument depicting monsters as heroes has "artistic value." Far be it from me to shed tears over it - especially one of that hijo de perra Columbus.

 

[AnathemicOne]

Sure bring it down, dude was a genocidal idiot anyway. Not sure what's with the debate going on here in this thread.

 

[TrojanBlade]

Can't believe Columbus is celebrated by having a Columbus day in US after I finally read about Columbus's history and found out he is not the hero that he has been made into. He was a dick!

 

[pigeon]

statues made for famous cunts that had a massive historical impact probably belong in a museum rather than in public.

What possible benefit would there be to society from putting low-quality public statuary in museums?

Like I genuinely want to get where people are coming from on this. Do you guys go to museums? They have actual historical artifacts from the 15th century in them. Not random statues that were built in the 1850s because Italians started coming to America and wanted some recognition.

Where does this idea come from that we should put statues with no artistic or historical merit in museums? If they don't belong in the public square then we should just throw them away.

 

[Basketball]

This guy is such a pussy

why go out at night hooded up

too scared to prove his point in the day

scared he will get caught ... little bitch

 

[cwmartin]

This guy is such a pussy

why go out at night hooded up

too scared to prove his point in the day

scared he will get caught ... little bitch

Lol, thats quite the hot take to vomit out after reading this thread.

 

[Azerth]

So basically no monuments to dead people from the past got it

 

[psyfi]

beautiful

 

[Morrigan Stark]

So basically no monuments to dead people from the past got it

Uh-huh...

Lol, thats quite the hot take to vomit out after reading this thread.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

So basically no monuments to dead people from the past got it

Sure if you have terrible reading comprehension.

 

[Brinbe]

nvm

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

So basically no monuments to dead people from the past got it

Believe or not, Not every historical figure was a genocidal maniac It just so happen those are the ones people build to. Their is plenty of figures in history have done important achievements without also being a sith lord and those are the ones we should have monuments to.

 

[televator]

So basically no monuments to dead people from the past got it

Monuments that depict slavers murderes and oppressors as vituous heroes.

 

[Heshinsi]

So basically no monuments to dead people from the past got it

Not ones who cut the limbs off people, enslaved them, and fed their children to dogs. Not to mention that he was punished for these actions while alive. So it is hilarious that I'm 2017 we've got people stating, "oh but we should leave these monuments up to remember history!" How about we remember that he was cast down due to his barbarism, and we do the same today, and cast his monuments and his shitty day down?

 

[pigeon]

This is how I feel about streets being named after General MacArthur, incidentally, but I'm not sure that would get the same level of agreement.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I would not do it myself, but I am okay with this

 

[gutter_trash]

Not ones who cut the limbs off people, enslaved them, and fed their children to dogs. Not to mention that he was punished for these actions while alive. So it is hilarious that I'm 2017 we've got people stating, "oh but we should leave these monuments up to remember history!" How about we remember that he was cast down due to his barbarism, and we do the same today, and cast his monuments and his shitty day down?

you know your evil when your atrocities were too atrocious for reigning monarch to accept. Then get sent to the slammer for it

 

[Basketball]

I don't really care about Columbus statues/monuments being removed
or confederates etc

but Vandalism is not a means to an end period.

Does being angry at centuries old history give you the right (of a whole city/community) to destroy anything. The slippery slopes are there as much as you want to deny them.

Think rationally .. would it not have been better to have a community/city officials decide to remove the monument to a museum or storage.

or is a slegehammer in the middle of the night the right way to solve the evils of old history

 

[TaterTots]

Real talk, even though this thread took a turn it peaked my interest and I've done A LOT of reading about Christopher Columbus today. In grade school, we were taught he was a top fucking tier sailor who had the balls to venture out and discover new lands and found America.

Today, I learned he went on an expedition for gold and spices to the far east, but discovered an island in the Bahamas full of Arawak people. Didn't really find gold, but convinced Spain through lies to send him 17 boats and 1200 men because he could return a lot of gold and slaves thanks to the overly kind natives. He sent WAY more slaves than gold and killed off half the Arawak population in just two years. They were completely wiped out in the 1500's and he never even stepped foot on North American soil, yet we have a holiday for this lol.

In short, if that statue is old as shit, I say preserve it somewhere just because of how old it is. If its not remarkably old, who gives a shit? Now I understand why some are confused about the people saying, "don't vandalize, not coo." If the government doesn't have the common sense to figure something out then why can't the people do something about it themselves?

 

[Nerazar]

I don't really care about Columbus statues/monuments being removed
or confederates etc

but Vandalism is not a means to an end period.

Does being angry at centuries old history give you the right (of a whole city/community) to destroy anything. The slippery slopes are there as much as you want to deny them.

Think rationally .. would it not have been better to have a community/city officials decide to remove the monument to a museum or storage.

or is a slegehammer in the middle of the night the right way to solve the evils of old history

Yes, so much this! Instead of taking things into their own hands, they might have gathered enough support from the populace for them to tear it down in broad daylight. Might have taken some weeks or months, but we would have no backlash.

But instead, whoever did it sabotaged all the gains we made during the past few days.

The only proper thing to do would be to distance ourselves from those violent people and continue to work with society as a whole instead of giving in to primal urges of vengeance. The more often we succumb to this kind of "action", the more similar we become to the violent right.

 

[gutter_trash]

Real talk, even though this thread took a turn it peaked my interest and I've done A LOT of reading about Christopher Columbus today. In grade school, we were taught he was a top fucking tier sailor who had the balls to venture out and discover new lands and found America.

Today, I learned he went on an expedition for gold and spices to the far east, but discovered an island in the Bahamas full of Arawak people. Didn't really find gold, but convinced Spain through lies to send him 17 boats and 1200 men because he could return a lot of gold and slaves thanks to the overly kind natives. He sent WAY more slaves than gold and killed off half the Arawak population in just two years. They were completely wiped out in the 1500's and he never even stepped foot on North American soil, yet we have a holiday for this lol.

In short, if that statue is old as shit, I say preserve it somewhere just because of how old it is. If its not remarkably old, who gives a shit? Now I understand why some are confused about the people saying, "don't vandalize, not coo." If the government doesn't have the common sense to figure something out then why can't the people do something about it themselves?

the most damning is the way history classes teaches kids about history.

an ideological version but not the factual version

 

[MUnited83]

How is ignoring and distorting history preserving it?

If these statues were memorials to the native peoples killed by Columbus, if they were statues depicting his tyranny, his cruelty, or hell, even his basic navigational fuckups, that would be one thing.

But they aren't. They are an intentional misrepresentation of a glorious past that never existed. They are idolatry for a false hero deserving of no such reverence.

"Preserving history" does not mean lying to ourselves and our children about the past, it means facing up to the injustices and monsters that created the world as we know it today.

This. This statue isn't teaching actual history to anyone. In fact, the statue is part of how people fucking erased how much of a monster he was in the first place.

So basically no monuments to dead people from the past got it

There's plenty of people that died in the past that weren't murderous psychopaths that dismembered people, engaged in literal genocide and were child rapists, all in one.

 

[Glix]

Only semi related, but everyone should read Guns Germs and Steel.

Fucking fascinating stuff.

 

[manakel]

What possible benefit would there be to society from putting low-quality public statuary in museums?

Like I genuinely want to get where people are coming from on this. Do you guys go to museums? They have actual historical artifacts from the 15th century in them. Not random statues that were built in the 1850s because Italians started coming to America and wanted some recognition.

Where does this idea come from that we should put statues with no artistic or historical merit in museums? If they don't belong in the public square then we should just throw them away.

Because you can't pick and choose history. It still happened regardless of whether that statue is in a public space or not. So why not put it in a museum (YOU may personally not go to museums, but many schools around the country take field trips to museums at some point in k-12) to use as a teaching moment for children? It allows us to learn from the past while not celebrating him by having his statue in a public space.

 

[Temeculan3000]

Isn't all of modern American society essentially a monument to the destruction of Native Americans?

 

[Glix]

Isn't all of modern American society essentially a monument to the destruction of Native Americans?

But we give them land! (unless we need it then we take it back)

 

[Elegant Weapon]

This guy is such a pussy

why go out at night hooded up

too scared to prove his point in the day

scared he will get caught ... little bitch

Spider-Man wears a mask, so you're wrong.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

So basically no monuments to dead people from the past got it

Not if they commit genocide, no.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Isn't all of modern American society essentially a monument to the destruction of Native Americans?

To a point, I have mentioned in previous threads that I wished that the US would have never expanded beyond the proclimation line but whatcha gonna do lol.

 

[gutter_trash]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJr6jyPNmZE

The ugly truth about christopher columbus

 

[TaterTots]

But instead, whoever did it sabotaged all the gains we made during the past few days.

Personally, I disagree. When I heard about this story I thought to myself, "why the fuck would someone vandalize a Columbus statue?" Whoever did that sparked a conversation that peaked my interest enough to learn as to why someone would even do that. Everything I was told about Columbus is basically a lie. He was a savage and now I don't give a shit if they take it down.

 

[televator]

This guy is such a pussy

why go out at night hooded up

too scared to prove his point in the day

scared he will get caught ... little bitch

Because the police might shoot him dead for hurting a lump of rock while black? This is America.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

I don't really care about Columbus statues/monuments being removed
or confederates etc

but Vandalism is not a means to an end period.

Does being angry at centuries old history give you the right (of a whole city/community) to destroy anything. The slippery slopes are there as much as you want to deny them.

Think rationally .. would it not have been better to have a community/city officials decide to remove the monument to a museum or storage.

or is a slegehammer in the middle of the night the right way to solve the evils of old history

honestly, whatever gets the job done. Sometimes you can't wait for the state to realize it's own bullshit.

The evils of old history being celebrated in modern times can't really be left up to old guard gatekeepers.

 

[TaterTots]

the most damning is the way history classes teaches kids about history.

an ideological version but not the factual version

I agree and that's why I didn't know jack shit about Columbus. Sure, he accidently stumbled across Americas, but he shouldn't be celebrated for that. Even though some are saying he thought it was India is a false narrative. He recorded in his logs he thought it was a new land. It makes no sense as to why NA or even another country in the Americas would celebrate him.

 

[Violet_0]

Sure bring it down, dude was a genocidal idiot anyway. Not sure what's with the debate going on here in this thread.

maybe people should stop destroying monuments that might actually have some historic or artistic value (not talking about the 1900s Confederate statues). I know that Columbus was a terrible person, I know that it's deeply insulting for many to see monuments dedicated to him on display in public places - so get people to discuss this and let them decide if they should be removed, don't walk around smashing things because hey it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Or, I don't know, take the sledgehammer and break some statues of everyone you might disagree with, because the time to talk is over and it's all about how you (not literally you) feel now, you alone get to decide what is allowed to stay and what must be destroyed. Again, this is not about the Confederate statues, I'm not even American

 

[TaterTots]

Only semi related, but everyone should read Guns Germs and Steel.

Fucking fascinating stuff.

I'm actually eyeballing that. Someone earlier suggested a book called "Lies My Teacher Told Me." That lead me to purchase this;

https://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-United-States-ebook/dp/B015XEWZHI/ref=pd_sim_351_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=J6WCQCK2AXAZKJYNX5ZM

I'm also going to get the LMTTM book as well.

 

[pigeon]

Because you can't pick and choose history.

You can pick and choose the artifacts you use to teach history, though.

It still happened regardless of whether that statue is in a public space or not. So why not put it in a museum (YOU may personally not go to museums, but many schools around the country take field trips to museums at some point in k-12) to use as a teaching moment for children? It allows us to learn from the past while not celebrating him by having his statue in a public space.

You have utterly failed to read my post. Try again.

I go to museums. Museums don't generally contain random statues of historical figures. That would be a huge waste of time and detrimental to the mission of the museum, which is perfectly capable of presenting actual artifacts from the time period in question rather than statues that were built hundreds of years later for unrelated reasons.

If you think that poorly crafted statues of random historical people belong in museums, I don't think you go to museums or understand how they work.

If you think this statue has actual artistic or historical merit, make that case instead of assuming every statue ever built possesses these characteristics. They do not.

 

[woxel1]

I'm not even American

Neither was Columbus.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

maybe people should stop destroying monuments that might actually have some historic or artistic value (not talking about the 1900s Confederate statues). I know that Columbus was a terrible person, I know that it's deeply insulting for many to see monuments dedicated to him on display in public places - so get people to discuss this and let them decide if they should be removed, don't walk around smashing things because hey it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Or, I don't know, take the sledgehammer and break some statues of everyone you might disagree with, because the time to talk is over and it's all about how you (not literally you) feel now, you alone get to decide what is allowed to stay and what must be destroyed. Again, this is not about the Confederate statues, I'm not even American

It was the right thing to do. The person who did it is a true patriot in the best sense, imo.

 

[DevilFox]

It's absolutely nothing like that and you're being disingenuous for even suggesting it.

You don't decide what's valuable heritage and what's not. As I see it, this task falls entirely and solely on the community itself, democratically, and vandals belong to a jail.

Tearing down a statue of someone who fed live babies to dogs isn't along the same lines as being a racist

Also, like cwmartin said, that comparison makes no sense. Books didn't unwrite themselves when this monument was vandalized. No information was lost. We still have the information about Columbus, and even the falsities about Columbus in print. Your example involves actively revoking knowledge from future generations.

To legitimize vandalism sets a dangerous precedent. To condone this act is a mistake, period.
Examples of Roman emperors and Vikings have been discussed and dismissed with weak arguments and because "it's old history". Fine, let's discuss a more recent example then: Paris, Arc de Triomphe, 200 years old. Commissioned by Napoleon himself to honor those who fought in his battles. Spoiler alert: Napoleon was no saint. As a matter of fact, at first he reintroduced slavery. What should we do? I ask because there's a statue of him here in Milan too and I'd like to send a email to our mayor to remove it asap if you wish. Also, while you're at it, tell me about Giuseppe Garibaldi, a national hero and, rumors say, a slave trader for a brief period of time.
I could go on for a long time without even leaving north Italy. As you see, it's a stupid game.

 

[manakel]

You can pick and choose the artifacts you use to teach history, though.



You have utterly failed to read my post. Try again.

I go to museums. Museums don't generally contain random statues of historical figures. That would be a huge waste of time and detrimental to the mission of the museum, which is perfectly capable of presenting actual artifacts from the time period in question rather than statues that were built hundreds of years later for unrelated reasons.

If you think that poorly crafted statues of random historical people belong in museums, I don't think you go to museums or understand how they work.

If you think this statue has actual artistic or historical merit, make that case instead of assuming every statue ever built possesses these characteristics. They do not.

And who are you to decide what does or doesn't belong in museums? There's no reason why this statue doesn't belong in an American history museum. ANYTHING can become an artifact; pretty sure it doesn't require a brain surgeon to figure that one out.

 

[Mael]

Wasn't Mc Arthur the guy that wanted to nuke Korea?
I'm not sure we should have a statue to someone who has such gross disregard for human life.

And who are you to decide what does or doesn't belong in museums? There's no reason why this statue doesn't belong in an American history museum. ANYTHING can become an artifact; pretty sure it doesn't require a brain surgeon to figure that one out.

Take a picture and keep that.
If the statue is not notable for how or who made it, it's not really that interesting to clog a museum's limited space.
Literally any religious statue that dates back from before the XVIIIth century in France would be more valuable and we have these shits littered in fields and I mean literally.

 

[Sarcastic Poster]

I think the slippery slope fallacy actually has some merit here. Confederate monuments, I agree with taking down. Columbus, a piece of shit but historically significant enough that I can see the argument for keeping it up. There's already talk of destroying Jefferson and Jackson monuments, which I'd be against. How far does it go before a historical figure is absolved? I mean Oliver Cromwell committed genocide against the Irish, but I'd 100% him having statues in England because he's one of their most significant historical figures. It seems there's a sweet spot where moral relativism is not utilised and there is a romanticization of the warrior. Like we all think of Genghis Khan as cool now and not the greatest mass murderer ever to live.

 

[gutter_trash]

You don't decide what's valuable heritage and what's not. As I see it, this task falls entirely and solely on the community itself, democratically, and vandals belong to a jail.



To legitimize vandalism sets a dangerous precedent. To condone this act is a mistake, period.
Examples of Roman emperors and Vikings have been discussed and dismissed with weak arguments and because "it's old history". Fine, let's discuss a more recent example then: Paris, Arc de Triomphe, 200 years old. Commissioned by Napoleon himself to honor those who fought in his battles. Spoiler alert: Napoleon was no saint. As a matter of fact, at first he reintroduced slavery. What should we do? I ask because there's a statue of him here in Milan too and I'd like to send a email to our mayor to remove it asap if you wish. Also, while you're at it, tell me about Giuseppe Garibaldi, a national hero and, rumors say, a slave trader for a brief period of time.
I could go on for a long time without even leaving north Italy. As you see, it's a stupid game.

of corse many historical figures did questionable things but the problem with Columbus in particular is how American schools teach history. An ideological version, not a factual.

Everyone knows that Napoleon was a dictator and imperialist , history teachers don't shy from it.

but when it comes to Columbus, there is this concerted effort to fudge the facts for ideology

 

[Koomaster]

I'm fine with tearing ALL these statues down and destroying them. If you come at me with an argument about; 'Well what about So-n-So's statue, he did x-bad thing too.' I'm going to tell you to tear it down. Destroy them ALL! I'm 100% serious, we don't need statues of anybody.

 

[SyenceLabb]

I'm fine with tearing ALL these statues down and destroying them. If you come at me with an argument about; 'Well what about So-n-So's statue, he did x-bad thing too.' I'm going to tell you to tear it down. Destroy them ALL! I'm 100% serious, we don't need statues of anybody.

That sounds like something straight out of ISIS's playbook.

 

[SyenceLabb]

This is what happens when you start judging historical figures by modern moral standards. I'm fine with all Confederate statues coming down, but we are now entering bat shit crazy territory.

 

[televator]

This is what happens when you start judging historical figures by modern moral standards. I'm fine with all Confederate statues coming down, but we are now entering bat shit crazy territory.

Columbus was judged for his crimes in his own time... Not that that matters to me much, but to you that seems important.