People knew he was a monster in his own time, bruh.
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Christopher Columbus monument vandalized in Baltimore
- Thread starter ponpo
- Start date
People knew he was a monster in his own time, bruh.
You don't have to take it that far. Just examine the consequences of idolization in modern society... The same brand of idolization is why we have a President Trump... and why taking down one historically inaccurate plaster and brick statue is enough to cause enough social discord to make headlines.
Complex Shadow
Cudi Lame
how can you say that without seeing the unicorn gundam statue?
Because I don't idolize statues of some people in history who have done horrible things? What value do these statues have; there is nothing they can teach us. It's the information age, if I want to know about x-person, there is a plethora of books and online resources devoted to deconstructing every piece of their lives from birth to death. A statue isn't something that's needed for any purpose.
But I guess I'm ISIS because I don't care about hunks of metal/stone molded in the shape of a human.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
Columbus can get fucked too. The guy was a monster, and most people have been force fed that kool-aid for far too long.
Defacing/removing monuments that distort/lie about history = destroying millennia old artifacts?
edit: You understand that he was too extreme for Spain even at the time right?
Removing statues does not suddenly remove them from our (already revisionist) history books, so I fail to see how removing them somehow makes us forget about these historically significant individuals, or the lessons that we can learn from them.
The decision to remove or not should ultimately be up to the people who live in the towns/cities where these statues reside. They are the ones who seem them. They are the ones who feel that their regional identity is associated with them. They should be the ones to determine whether they should stay or not, regardless of who it is, and what atrocities they committed.
If a black community wants to remove a statue of George Washington, who are we to say they shouldn't? Hell, if a racist as fuck town wants to build a statue of Adolf Hitler, let them be associated with that monster. Let's judge individual communities by those they choose to idolize. Wear that shit on your sleeve with pride.
The decision to remove or not should ultimately be up to the people who live in the towns/cities where these statues reside. They are the ones who seem them. They are the ones who feel that their regional identity is associated with them. They should be the ones to determine whether they should stay or not, regardless of who it is, and what atrocities they committed.
If a black community wants to remove a statue of George Washington, who are we to say they shouldn't? Hell, if a racist as fuck town wants to build a statue of Adolf Hitler, let them be associated with that monster. Let's judge individual communities by those they choose to idolize. Wear that shit on your sleeve with pride.
Seductivpancakes
Member
I seriously doubt the poster wants to destroy those statues cause he only believes in one god and one culture.
Don't worry ISIS want gay people dead so the right is also ISIS so you're not alone.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
I wouldn't consider the poster ISIS for wanting a world wide Iconoclasm. Well I vehemently disagree with his position it's an interesting one to consider that in a digital world do we need lasting monuments when so much of our lives is online. Is their really much a difference between an original mona lisa compared to a photo copy on google images well I think so im sure many do not and I guess its up to society to decide.
I was merely saying that everyone is ISIS.
We talking the Egyptian goddess, right?
But for real though, we just need to do away with monuments of traitors and universally reviled piece of shits, it's not that hard.
SyenceLabb
Member
You make a fair point, but surely you would agree he wasn't judged severely. He spent 6 weeks in jail, but he was able to keep his wealth and the crown continued to fund his voyages.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
Oh no we are referring to the dog on Downton Abbey.
Fair enough. I said myself that history isn't a fairy tale but it's true that some facts get twisted until we reach a certain age. By that time, our education system also expects you to deepen your knowledge by yourself.
I don't know how you do it over there, I'd be interested to know (the picture I have of your education system is pretty bad), but here we study (almost) all history 3 times from Prehistory to Cold War. The first time we read about Columbus we have 10yo: when it comes to wars, there's no mention of rapes or infanticide, mostly a generic "the city got sacked plus slavery". Things get more detailed and honest the 2nd and especially the 3rd time from age 14 to 19. A History Degree is the last step. That or the Internet.
Education is key and that's another argument worth discussing. That said, I still consider vandalism wrong, whatever it is the common knowledge of the average american about Colombus.
Emperor Nero's too. Fun fact: the colossus of Nero was detroyed but in 2010 a new statue was built and placed in a public place. Why, you may ask. He was, after all, one ruthless individual. Legends say he enjoyed to watch Rome burning in the devastation of the great fire of Rome. The same legends say he himself initiated the fire so that he could blame christians and kill them.
Maybe it's for artistic value, maybe it's cultural heritage. Who knows but I'm glad it's there.
Some would say because "Earth" without art is just "Eh". Very Tumblr like, but not absurd.
We're about as close to the real thing as the popular version of Columbus is to the real thing anyway.
Still though, statues represented what we deemed good enough that we think having living breathing depictions of them is great.
It represent the value the community shares.
In that I can totally get why Italians would want to keep Columbus.
But again, for the nth time, Confederate?
Why do you want to remind everyone that you think treason to the country you're part is a good thing?
Like I said, that doesn't really matter to me how he was judged or not. I'm not a moral nihilist or full on relativist.
This is an embarrassing post.
I look forward to your museum of bottle caps and gravel.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I think that the argument "it was another time period" is really falling flat. I mean, it's valid for some issues but not really for genocidal maniacs.
People back then didn't had better views of somebody killing mass of people and raping tons of women, it's just that the political and military class had a lot less accountability.
Also, the difference with european kings is that they are celebrated from "their side". You don't expect to find a statue of Alexander the Great in Iran. The issue is that Christopher Columbus is being celebrated by the same nations he destroyed, because the ruling class is feeling more closer to the criminals than the victims.
If anything, we need to celebrate heroes of the indigenous and black resistance, as well as those of the wars of independance.
People back then didn't had better views of somebody killing mass of people and raping tons of women, it's just that the political and military class had a lot less accountability.
Also, the difference with european kings is that they are celebrated from "their side". You don't expect to find a statue of Alexander the Great in Iran. The issue is that Christopher Columbus is being celebrated by the same nations he destroyed, because the ruling class is feeling more closer to the criminals than the victims.
If anything, we need to celebrate heroes of the indigenous and black resistance, as well as those of the wars of independance.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Do you understand the difference in the scale and scope of knowledge dissemination between the 1700s and 2017?
Sure, I suppose a few thousand scholars and historians knew the truth back then but the general populace? The artisan who worked on the monument? Nah, I think not.
Hell, this artisan might have living descendants. Would you be okay going up to them and telling them how happy you are that their ancestor's work was vandalized and that he was a monster for ever working on the monument.
I know I am reaching here, but I really do wish people could remember that his story was embellished and co-opted as a way to create a figure to help fight against racism against Italian-Americans. Sure, he was a questionable choice but he was a key figure in the discovery of the Americas.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
The issue is that Americas were never "discovered".
Also, what about the descendant of the victims of Columbus and everything he represent ? What is more important ?
You should have been able to figure out in my post I'm not going to be a supporter of Eurocentric worldviews. Americas weren't fucking discovered.
Why the fuck should we care what the family of the guy who made the statue think anyway?
If that's the issue, give it back to that guy's home for his backyard and call it a day.
Well, I'd say it was in the same way Europe was discovered but we have little remnants to show for it.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
Et tu, Brute?
I'll add that I agree with pigeon's overall point in that you don't just put anything in museums and call it a day.
I mean if you just pick up all bottle caps you see on Jersey's shore and send them to Michigan's museum, they'll send you packing for good reasons.
If the statue is notable for nothing in particular, just destroy it or sell it.
I'm partly descended from the people Columbus and his kind terrorized, maimed, and murdered. The scales aren't equal on both sides, but I understand the artisan may not have been a monster. lol The least that can be expected is understanding for actual brutality as well.
I agree, but he's losing his point due to blatant exaggeration. Public statues are obviously held to some regard if they're in a public space to begin with. Comparing a statue to bottle caps and gravel is ridiculous.
the question left is do we really actually?
If we don't and prefer removing the statue, that ok too.
and if we don't do anything with the statue it might be better to just sell it to increase the budget locally, donate it or even destroy it to avoid paying for its maintenance.
Oh yeah, btw people who have confederate statues in their communities? You're paying for the upkeep.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Can we please refrain from semantics based 'gotcha' moments and have an intelligent discussion.
I meant the discovery by European powers which led to colonization and the formation of many different countries across both continents. I thought that would be obvious. Apologies if you thought otherwise.
And in regard to the descendants of his victims, of corse I feel they should be represented but the actions these vandals took aren't working towards that goal as far as I am concerned. I can think of other obviously more complicated ways to preserve their legacy. But they would actually take hard work and action.
Sure, I would be fine with that. I was just trying to point out that it is possible to separate the intent of the monument and the artisan who created it from the actual man. The situation is very different from th Jim Crow era Confederate monuments. I am all for legal actions to remove or change any monuments honoring him, but I don't think outright destruction is the way to go.
I agree 100% here. I would have loved it if these people started a funding campaign and petitioned the city to have a monument placed next to this one which could honor the memory of those people while also giving visitors a glimpse of their he atrocities he committed. I can't think of a great way to do it but I'm not an artisan...
Something along the lines of how the fearless girl stature put the Wall Street bull statue in a new perspective.
gutter_trash
Banned
Americans don't parade Julius Ceasar as a democratic man of peace as they distort Columbus being an adventuring curious explorer
GillianSeed79
Member
Columbus was a genocidal piece of shit, so I'm not bothered at all. I'm half-Italian too. Fuck him.
It's not a gotcha moment. The only people that think they discovered an entire fucking continent are like, not even the third set of people to set foot on it for the first time, and insists people believe that only european written history matters. Nobody having an intelligent conversation should even give a moment's consideration to centuries old masturbatory bullcrap.
Phrynobatrachus
Neo Member
s/o to the people who smashed it up, keep it coming y'all
what an awful rationalization
what an awful rationalization
BudokaiMR2
Member
Believe me, I think it would be awesome if the discovery by Leif Ericson was the event that led to the events that led to the formation of my country (maybe even through less diabolical means but then again he was a Viking...) and everyone instead went around saying 'Thor Bless America!' But that's just a fantasy.
Despite the horrible shit Columbus did, his expedition did have a larger affect on the world.
I wanted to stay away from this thread but...
To us Natives, he's basically our Hitler. He did have a serious impact on our world; one that that started a genocide we barely survived. So yeah. Fuck Columbus, and Columbus day should be changed to Indigenous People's Day.
But that will never happen because to the majority of Americans, we are ghosts and only exist as sterotypes in old westerns.
Hell most people don't even recognize us when they see us.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Hopefully this kind of attitude doesn't spread outside of the US.
What the hell do you want, to rename Colombia and British Columbia for example (since they're named after him)? No.
In general, respect history, and learn from it. Columbus did awful things and led to other awful things, but that doesn't make this acceptable.
What the hell do you want, to rename Colombia and British Columbia for example (since they're named after him)? No.
In general, respect history, and learn from it. Columbus did awful things and led to other awful things, but that doesn't make this acceptable.
Seductivpancakes
Member
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Doesn't just belong in books that you wouldn't be interested in reading anyway.
No, I said far-left. Most definitely people condoning this are far-left.
sure why not, countries and states and cities have changed names all the time
Seductivpancakes
Member
Are you for real?
Did you learn all your history in school by looking at statues or monuments?
There was no reading or lectures in your school?
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
The difference here being that those have no serious movement to change them.
BudokaiMR2
Member
I wanted to stay away from this thread but...
To us Natives, he's basically our Hitler. He did have a serious impact on our world; one that that started a genocide we barely survived.
So yeah. Fuck Columbus, and Columbus day should be changed to Indigenous People's Day.
But that will never happen because to the majority of Americans, we are ghosts and only exist as sterotypes in old westerns.
Hell most people don't even recognize us when they see us.
Not in disagreement with you at all, but thanks for singling me out for no reason whatsoever.
Can you point out a single instance in this thread where I expressed respect or honored his name? I have just been pointing out that he did have a huge influence on the world, and that his legacy was used later as a way to create a mostly fantasy figure that could be used as a symbol against Italian-American racism.
If I remember my history correctly, the holiday was actually implemented as a direct result of a horrible public lynching of an Italian somewhere in the south.
The holiday should absolutely be changed, because at this point it does just further the fantasy account of his deeds.
There really isn't a way around the situation at the moment, unless you think teaching 1st graders on Columbus day about the horrors of genocide and feeding native babies to dogs is a great idea.
That's why you still have some people who don't know the true history, though I am starting to doubt they were actually paying attention in High School history classes as I was taught about all of his horrible deeds during that time at least.
My history teacher in HS was pretty damn woke though, so my situation is probably the exception.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I took issue with "
Despite the horrible shit Columbus did, his expedition did have a larger affect on the world."
I wasn't really singling you out, just trying to make a point off that quote. I'm really sorry if you felt like I was attacking you. Just wanted to drive home the fact that for us, his changing the world was our apocalypse, ya know? Most people don't really get that. Most in this thread don't get it .
And we are so few in number, especially online, that our voices are lost in the din.
BudokaiMR2
Member
That's fine. I specifically used the word 'diabolical' later in the quote because it was the worst descriptor I could come up with.
I have said this many times before, but I do agree that he should not be honored for what he did.
I just think it is important to take in all aspects of history instead of outright destroying them for some quick catharsis. Most of these monuments were not put up as a giant 'fuck you' to Native Americans, though of course I can understand why they would feel that way. They should.
Their main goal was to celebrate Italian-American heritage and ease tensions for a group that was being discriminated against.
It is not fair that they had more of a voice at that time than Native Americans who had it even worse than Italian-Americans on all fronts, and it really is unfortunate that they couldn't come up with a better figure to memorialize.
This is not obvious at all. In fact I explicitly asked you to defend it and you avoided doing so, precisely because it is indefensible. Lots of statues have no historical merit.
Platinumstorm
Member
I wanted to stay away from this thread but...
To us Natives, he's basically our Hitler. He did have a serious impact on our world; one that that started a genocide we barely survived. So yeah. Fuck Columbus, and Columbus day should be changed to Indigenous People's Day.
But that will never happen because to the majority of Americans, we are ghosts and only exist as sterotypes in old westerns.
Hell most people don't even recognize us when they see us.
It's already Native American day in some states, including my home state of South Dakota, and it has been that way for an incredibly long time.
I get so pissed off when Indians(NA) get neglected in political discussion, but that's for another time [if you go through my post history you will find me go into this in pretty decent detail].
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Veering to thread:
I think we have to be incredibly careful about how we treat the history of the US, and keep in mind statue removal is not supported by a majority of the US population. These issues should be relegated to local issues and determined by local citizens; not through vigilante actions of an individual that borderlines anarchism.
We have the benefit of retrospection in today's age; and we know what we want to shape ourselves into the future. Will a future memorial of Obama be taken down because he campaigned on message of "marriage is between man and a woman"? I would certainly hope not, but it's difficult to not use that similar logic to justify why such an action should take place.
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