The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
No. Only one action counts. Pulling the trigger. Nothing "made" the officer do that, no magical force compelled his hand
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Cincinnati braces for footage release in campus cop killing (Up: Murder charge)
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No. Only one action counts. Pulling the trigger. Nothing "made" the officer do that, no magical force compelled his hand
That video is insane.... yeah, there's definitely a problem with the police force in America.
Not saying police are all terrible, in fact, most are probably decent human beings but when there are this many reports/shootings popping up across the U.S. then it's an obvious issue that needs to be faced.
Not saying police are all terrible, in fact, most are probably decent human beings but when there are this many reports/shootings popping up across the U.S. then it's an obvious issue that needs to be faced.
Gravy Boat
Member
The premises are very similar. You're blaming the victim, saying it's their fault that this awful thing happened because of something relatively minor. The guy trying to drive off is in no way worth of a bullet in the head. It shouldn't have lead to that, and in pretty much anywhere else in the world, it wouldn't have led to that. This lies solely on the cop, no one else. Stop blaming the victim.
No, we don't like it when people blame victims for tragedies like this.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
It's funny..
This officer I just quoted (which is a funny twist) isn't mentioning the driver..he's saying exactly who fucked up here. Why?
Veritigo_X
Member
Victim blaming isn't cool. Only one person is responsible for the shooting and it was the person who pulled the trigger. If you can't see that it really isn't worth discussing with you anymore. Later.
You have this police report, the one from the SC gas station incident and the NJ incident, and wonder why black people have such a hard time taking cops at their word?
This is why. Cops are human too, and will cover their own ass in interest of self preservation.
This is why. Cops are human too, and will cover their own ass in interest of self preservation.
Claude Augario
Member
I don't know why I'm surprised that this thread got derailed so hard with the victim blaming. I've been lurking long enough to know the pattern by now.
A cop executes an innocent man point blank for no reason (on video!) and then spends the next five minutes concocting a fake story (on video!) to cover his ass. He even gets his fellow officers to back up his lies, because he knows literally nothing that happened justifies murdering someone like that and yet we have pages upon pages of where was the license tho and whats in the bottle!? If the murderer knows this is bullshit, why are you spending so much time trying to legitimize it?
You can keep saying that he was murdered and nothing justifies that, but if that's preceded or succeeded by paragraphs about what the victim did wrong then you're a liar and a victim blamer because that's exactly justifying the cop's actions. And keeping focus off the real problem makes you part of the problem.
A cop executes an innocent man point blank for no reason (on video!) and then spends the next five minutes concocting a fake story (on video!) to cover his ass. He even gets his fellow officers to back up his lies, because he knows literally nothing that happened justifies murdering someone like that and yet we have pages upon pages of where was the license tho and whats in the bottle!? If the murderer knows this is bullshit, why are you spending so much time trying to legitimize it?
You can keep saying that he was murdered and nothing justifies that, but if that's preceded or succeeded by paragraphs about what the victim did wrong then you're a liar and a victim blamer because that's exactly justifying the cop's actions. And keeping focus off the real problem makes you part of the problem.
Anton Sugar
Member
He is not saying that it's literally the same thing--don't be obtuse. He's making a comparison in the logic of how these consequences are met.
You have even admitted that the man did not deserve to die and the cop took the wrong action, yet you continue to say that Dubose could have taken action to prevent his own wrongful death. "Listen to the officer" "do what the officer says" "don't start the car" etc.
The comparison to sexual assault is this: victims do not deserve their assault, yet officers/public/society, etc., continually try to explain ways that the victim could have prevented their own assault by not taking certain actions, dressing a certain way, not getting drunk, etc.
Get it now?
Here, I'll make it easier for you: "if you hadn't gotten so drunk, you wouldn't have been assaulted."
These things will serve a very important purpose when it comes to the trial and his defense. Elements of this incident may go all the way to the supreme Court to rule on for future police procedures.
The fact that he failed to identify himself and gave clear indicators that he was getting ready to flee will be the focus of the officers defense. Talking about these points does not mean someone is victim blaming.
The Supreme Court has ruled previously that an officer can not be judged on hindsight on dealy force incidents, but rather what a reasonable officer would do in the same situation in that moment.
His defense will be that he thought he was about to be caught in the struggle and dragged as the driver fled the scene, which could cause serious physical harm which is the threshold for using deadly force.
Yes I'm a cop. No I'm not defending his actions and he clearly was not justified in shooting this man. But every time someone asks questions about details of the case, which ARE important despite it not changing the fact that he killed this man, they shouldn't be chastised and ridiculed for simply asking a question.
A pattern that sadly repeats every time.
At a certain point some posters here make me feel like Judge Dredd isn't cautionary satire but a taste of things to come.
"Oh it sure is terrible Dredd shot that person for parking improperly, but can't we talk about how they'd be alive if their wheels were parallel to the curb?"
"Oh it sure is terrible Dredd shot that person for parking improperly, but can't we talk about how they'd be alive if their wheels were parallel to the curb?"
That's textbook victim blaming.
Starting your car at a routine stop is NOT A CRIME. He was not actually fleeing the scene of any crimes at the point of his murder.
Poor decision? Sure... just as it was a poor decision for that one girl in the news the other day to curse at a 911 Responder while trying to keep her friend from bleeding to death... But the poor decision of the responder to hang up on her because she did so is the much, much, MUCH bigger mistake.
... Like, to the point it's really not worth mentioning. Just like anybody who mentions the bottle of gin or starting the car. Even if the guy had guzzled a swimming pool of alcohol and was revving his engine like he was at NASCAR, that STILL wouldn't justify what the officer did.
Victim blaming is disgusting.
Veritigo_X
Member
We really should discuss the fact that DuBose didn't have a front license plate. If he followed the law he wouldn't even be pulled over in the first place. One thing led to another, etc, etc.
It's funny when former and current cops can't find any justification for this. When prosecutors and former ones can't find any justification for this. HELL when his own defense lawyer anticipated a murder charge you know it's bad.
So people in this thread and around the world try to analyze what the victim did and find fault with that...YES you are victim blaming and quite frankly you are part of the fucking problem.
Sam could have been piss drunk and screaming like a fucking hooligan and he still didn't deserve a bullet in his head.
The cops life in no point was in any danger and then he proceeds to lie later in the video and in his report. Not to mention the other cops willing to co-sign his shitty ass lie. Without the video he goes free. The other cops need to be fucking charged as well.
BTW Why don't we take a look at how scared Sam must have been. Literally pulled over for fucking nothing. Polite the whole damn time. Maybe Sam was scared when he saw a officer reach into his car. He's seen the same shit we've all been seeing. He could have easily been trying to preserve his own damn life.
So people in this thread and around the world try to analyze what the victim did and find fault with that...YES you are victim blaming and quite frankly you are part of the fucking problem.
Sam could have been piss drunk and screaming like a fucking hooligan and he still didn't deserve a bullet in his head.
The cops life in no point was in any danger and then he proceeds to lie later in the video and in his report. Not to mention the other cops willing to co-sign his shitty ass lie. Without the video he goes free. The other cops need to be fucking charged as well.
BTW Why don't we take a look at how scared Sam must have been. Literally pulled over for fucking nothing. Polite the whole damn time. Maybe Sam was scared when he saw a officer reach into his car. He's seen the same shit we've all been seeing. He could have easily been trying to preserve his own damn life.
EdibleKnife
Member
I'm not sure what we should be seeing differently. Sometimes shootings are justified. This wasn't. Cop made mistakes during the shooting that he should have known better of as a guy hired to know better. And he continued to make mistakes by lying about what took place. The guy could have stopped his car and maybe not gotten shot. He also could have stayed at home and accomplished the same. Neither is really relevant. The cop shouldn't have put his hand in, or pulled out his gun, or shot it or tried to cover it up because none of that was his job.
Honestly, I think he should have cut his hair and worn a suit. His clothing choices led to a poor impression. If he had dressed better, he might not have intimidated the officer so much as a big, scary black man.
... Victim blaming can just go on and on and on. And, sadly, some people will actually say things like that to justify it.
Jawbreaker
Member
The problem here is that being non-compliant isn't (and shouldn't be) forfeiture of your life. If the man were an actual threat to the police officer, eliminating the threat would be justifiable. In the video, we clearly see that the officer had no reason to fear for his life. Yes, the man tried to drive away to avoid arrest since he was clearly in violation of the law (this isn't in contention as far as I understand, though I could be mistaken), but the biggest issue here isn't that the man tried to avoid arrest, it's that the officer killed him when that course of action was not necessary at all.
I understand that people want to talk about the technicalities and argue that fully complying is more likely to result in a better outcome, but those technicalities really don't matter anymore because the man in the car is dead. Furthermore, while fully complying will probably result in a better outcome, it is the duty of the police officer not to abuse their position of power or lose their temper in such cases. There are ways to handle non-compliance that don't involve beating up or shooting a citizen.
I understand that people want to talk about the technicalities and argue that fully complying is more likely to result in a better outcome, but those technicalities really don't matter anymore because the man in the car is dead. Furthermore, while fully complying will probably result in a better outcome, it is the duty of the police officer not to abuse their position of power or lose their temper in such cases. There are ways to handle non-compliance that don't involve beating up or shooting a citizen.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
I don't think this is able to be determined from the video.
It looks like the car probably did move several feet while the struggle was happening. Doesn't change anything about how unjustified the use of deadly force was considering the speed it was moving, but you can see the car in the background is much closer after he falls.
No one thinks you're persecuted because people came down on you for trying to point out that a murdered person had their car in drive, bro. Sorry.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Your problem is you refuse to look at the whole picture..us junior detectives would like to play devil's advocate, without y'all jumping down our throats!!
I also find it interesting that the people who want to victim blame and argue semantics don't spend nearly as much time contemplating how this officer lied on his report. They want to discuss everything DuBose did wrong but not the officer OR they want to spin it in a matter as such both parties are equally responsible. Ridiculous.
Lets not let facts get in the way of "facts"
Standard Forest for the trees and what not
Dude Lebowski
Neo Member
Hindsight is a wonderful thing...
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
It's even crazier when you take into account that not even members of law enforcement want to defend what happened in this video.
Every single fucking time someone on here engages in victim blaming, that person becomes supremely indignant when they're called out on it and acts like "BUT I'M JUST TRYING TO SEE IT FROM ALL SIDES, I'M TRYING TO BE REASONABLE." No, you're not. You dressing up vile, illogical thoughts with delicate language like "fairness and reason." Halfway intelligent people see through that bullshit in an instant, so please stop with the charade, it's embarrassing and only makes you look like a mental-deficient.
It's like a child who thinks he's doing something clever and pulling a fast one over the adults in the room, but really the adults see right through it and laugh at how much of a moron the kid is.
BobTheFork
Member
That's only because there is a video.
Were the cops who lied to match his story even there to see it, I didn't think other officers were on scene.
The fact they lied about it and may not have even know (or given a shit) what the real story was means they were ready to defend a murderer. It comes across like they care more about image than anything else and if know when to pull the chute and give up an one of thier own.
Anton Sugar
Member
Did you know that he put his car in Drive? Makes you think.
You are getting torn apart because it's a false equivalency. Yes, they both made bad choices. One was extremely minor, one resulted shooting someone in the face. These are not the same things.
CharminUltra
Member
That video is just... yikes.
It's impossible to see it any other way from that video. Cop aggressively reached into his car and shot him in the head at the same time when he merely wanted to keep his car door closed. You don't shoot a man for not following your orders.
Agent Gibbs
Member
I've mentioned it and a few others, but no info seems to be about on what happened to them
Anton Sugar
Member
I don't know if there is any official word, but I am sure that will be part of the investigation.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...illing-officer-pleads-not-guilty-ryan-tensing
Hopefully they get charged. It might help discourage that thin blue wall bullshit in the future.
I too believe driving without a front license plate should be a death sentence.
Nothing yet but we'll see. I'm sure they're interviewing everyone involved.
TheOohChild
Member
I agree none that has any baring on the outcome, but I've read that DuBose had his license suspended in January and has been arrested eight times for driving on a suspended license. I really don't think it is unreasonable for cops to attempt to take measures to ensure someone doesn't flee, and I think DuBose was getting ready to flee, because he knew he was about to take another hit for his license. But I agree that it is insane that the cop tried to prevent him from fleeing with deadly force and should have let him go at that point.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
How is it going over there?
j_k_redtail
Member
Finally watched the video. I agree with the prosecutor and the chief: Dubose did nothing to deserve death, and the fact that Tensing (and others!) fabricated their report makes the incident all the more heinous. We tend to give the police the benefit of the doubt because we expect them to tell the truth. If the shooting was justifiable, then why lie about it? Why make up a statement about "being dragged?"
One would hope that an officer wouldn't panic during a traffic stop, shoot a guy, lie about it, and then enlist other officers in the lie. Nothing about that is defensible.
Hopefully he goes away for a long time. Thank God for body cameras.
One would hope that an officer wouldn't panic during a traffic stop, shoot a guy, lie about it, and then enlist other officers in the lie. Nothing about that is defensible.
Hopefully he goes away for a long time. Thank God for body cameras.
This is a really bad argument, especially in light of these past years where people who sit in place get shot by cops on camera. You don't think maybe Dubose saw the murdering fuck put his hand on the gun and immediately thought about trying to make it home? Why is it up to Dubose to be perfect? The "officer of the law" is paid a lot of money to be "better" than us. So yes, unfortunately one thing did lead to another, and it was a dumb traffic stop followed by increased aggressiveness by the pig, followed by asking Dubose to "remove their seatbelt" not a legal command, and opening the car door. All of this gives Dubose reason to believe this fuck is not in his right mind. Goodbye, but come back when you're done feigning ignorance.
Spycarnegy
Member
I just can't comprehend some of you people in here defending the police officers action. I really can't and it saddens me that you all see what you see. I'm to the point now where I just want to move me and my kid out of here. I'm literally scared to death of being pulled over or being stopped by the police as a law abiding black man. It literally does not matter.
LiquidSword
Member
Some of the posts in this thread are making me sick. People are trying to analyze every little thing to distract from the point and make this cop some kind of victim of circumstance. When is it going to be enough? Sam Dubose was literally executed point blank, but it's not enough for some people. The victim's skin was too dark so of course the cop gets the benefit of the doubt. Ray Tensing is a fucking murderer and if your think that he is not you need to take a moral inventory and reevaluate your world view.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Just-World Fallacy methinks.
Byakuya769
Member
Startling how quickly that escalated. Officer seemed like an alright guy, handling the stop in a professional manner. It's scary the degree of fear black men seem to elicit whenever they show any degree of non-compliance.
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