• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

COMICS! |OT| June 2016. The Manhattan Project

L

Li Kao

Member
F4jPh3P.jpg
qFQNSUb.jpg
XVGrCWT.jpg
ajzGRPS.jpg
ItF47WR.jpg
GGPH0dO.jpg
2QPruVm.jpg


Old Man Logan (2008) TPB
Finished the second half of the TPB. Really enjoyable for what it's worth, a popcorn comic book filled with violence set in a dystopian MU. Made me want to finally read the complete Earth / Universe / Paradise X.

The Amazing Spider-Man (2014) #16-18
You know it's funny how I adore Spidey and never have been able to love a Spidey story for years. Maybe it's called getting old and nostalgic (in my case 80's Spidey).
Not bad, just uninteresting.

Thor (2014) #7-8
Still very solid, still gender-waring in full force. Yawn.

Angela (2015) #6
That, boys, is some quality comic book. Take a look Aaron, a brilliant comic book, very much feminist, that don't go for the low hanging fruit.

Operation S.I.N. (2015) #4-5
Flaming pile of shit. Impressive. I don't know if I will have it in me to read the Shield 50th anniversary specials.

All-New All-Different Avengers FCBD 2015 One-Shot
I'm so excited by this glimpse into the new Avengers. Nice looking, fun, no grim & gritty, enjoyable new members. Don't fuck this up please !

Secret Wars (2015) 0-1
Having not read the lead up titles the tension is a little attenuated, but that's ok as this kind of event always becomes sort of ridiculous in its over-the-topness. Be that a ridiculous body count, torn limbs, senseless killings, huge events are not my thing.
That being said, it was really enjoyable, the art is very good and the thing didn't make me cringe my teeth out, take note Infinite Crisis. Nice read.


Hey kids, Comics: Angela (2015) #6 / All-New All-Different Avengers FCBD 2015
Hey kids, Scimoc: Operation S.I.N. (2015) #4-5
 
Brian Fellows

Brian Fellows

Pete Carroll Owns Me
Brian Fellows said:
Image solicits for September
Click to expand...

My buys.....

Wayward16-cvrC-dcc07.jpg
Click to expand...

THE BEAUTY #11
BIRTHRIGHT #19
THE BLACK MONDAY MURDERS #2
BLACK SCIENCE #24
CHEW #58
DEADLY CLASS #22
THE FIX #5
GLITTERBOMB #1
HORIZON #3
THE HUNT #3
I HATE FAIRYLAND #9
LAKE OF FIRE #2
LAZARUS #25
MANIFEST DESTINY #23
MONSTRESS #7
NAILBITER #25
NO MERCY #10
PAPER GIRLS #9
SAGA #38
SEVEN TO ETERNITY #1
SPREAD #16
SURGEON X #1
THE WALKING DEAD #158
WAYWARD #16
THE WICKED + THE DIVINE 1831 #1
 
M

Messi

Member
Did I dream Raven is getting a rebirth book or us that actually happening? Please tell me that wasn't all in my head :(
 
T

TetraxShards

Member
Messi said:
HHH was the best wrestler of his generation. No question. Staying power too.
Click to expand...

I didn't like him as a wrestler, but I do like Leader of NXT and Father to his Men (and Women of course) Triple H so he gets a pass. I'd honestly prefer if he stayed off TV and just used his considerable wrestling knowledge backstage, but he's a McMahon by proxy, so he couldn't stay off TV if he tried.

I'm so excited for the Cruiserweight Classic. Daniel Bryan on commentary!
 
M

Messi

Member
TetraxShards said:
I didn't like him as a wrestler, but I do like Leader of NXT and Father to his Men (and Women of course) Triple H so he gets a pass. I'd honestly prefer if he stayed off TV and just used his considerable wrestling knowledge backstage, but he's a McMahon by proxy, so he couldn't stay off TV if he tried.

I'm so excited for the Cruiserweight Classic. Daniel Bryan on commentary!
Click to expand...

I understand that but whenever I get to see him on TV wrestling it is a joy to watch. That said I don't watch regularly so I don't know how often he shows up.
 
L

Li Kao

Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
Well, what are you trying to say?
Click to expand...

Oh sorry, I thought the meaning was transparent enough. Well, I'm basically saying the same thing I said yesterday about the other issues :

"I would just say that the book would be a lot more enjoyable if it didn't revel in its polemism (is that a word ?) at every fucking opportunity.
I mean I'm ok to have a female Thor, really it's cool. Now if every character and his mother could stop being obsessed, angry, sad, happy, about that fact, it would be even cooler."

I don't hate the idea of a female Thor, but it's more or less the only thing the book is pushing, where Angela for example does so much more than that.
 
O

Owzers

Member
Too much of Thor early on was centered around finding out who was Thor, what was whispered to former thor, people being angry at new thor, and not enough about actually telling a worthwhile story, felt like a huge waste of time.
 
B

BKatastrophe

Member
Li Kao said:
Oh sorry, I thought the meaning was transparent enough. Well, I'm basically saying the same thing I said yesterday about the other issues :

"I would just say that the book would be a lot more enjoyable if it didn't revel in its polemism (is that a word ?) at every fucking opportunity.
I mean I'm ok to have a female Thor, really it's cool. Now if every character and his mother could stop being obsessed, angry, sad, happy, about that fact, it would be even cooler."

I don't hate the idea of a female Thor, but it's more or less the only thing the book is pushing, where Angela for example does so much more than that.
Click to expand...

They're different books about different things, though. A huge part of the current Sam Wilson Cap book is the political outrage over the fact that there is a black Captain America. It's a controversial issue, and that alone helps give the book a huge platform to start from. Thor is no different. The idea of a different Thor is controversial enough, but on top of the fact that it's a woman? Truly outrageous! It's going to push that because that's a component of that book. It's why she's striving to push herself. To prove herself, not only to keep fighting, but also because she believes the world needs a Thor and if no one else is gonna step up, she will. It's taking something that's believed to have been set in stone and completely breaking it. Angela is a completely different book and the only thing the two have in common is that their main characters are both female and Asgardian (kind of).

Besides, it's not like the book is ONLY about that. It has most certainly gone beyond that.
 
L

Li Kao

Member
BKatastrophe said:
Gender-bending. Which I'm not sure why that really has any impact on the book at all. It's a well done story that delivers a good book.

8 issues in and I'm struggling to find why that'd even be brought up still.
Click to expand...

How could it be any other way ? Seven issues in (I'm reading the former volume) and there is absolutely no other plot point other than Thor's gender. Malekith and Agger little deal advance at a snail pace, Thor made a fucking list to find who Thor really is, Odin is a huge dick partly because Thor is a woman, Thor herself play hide and seek to protect her identity... take back Thor's gender and you have no story anymore.
 
E

echoshifting

Banned
I don't even think they've really made much of an issue of Thor's gender in the new volume. It was a big part of the first volume but not so much post-ANAD.

I'm somewhat conflicted on whether or not that's a good thing.
 
B

BKatastrophe

Member
Li Kao said:
How could it be any other way ? Seven issues in (I'm reading the former volume) and there is absolutely no other plot point other than Thor's gender. Malekith and Agger little deal advance at a snail pace, Thor made a fucking list to find who Thor really is, Odin is a huge dick partly because Thor is a woman, Thor herself play hide and seek to protect her identity... take back Thor's gender and you have no story anymore.
Click to expand...

What I mean to say was that I'm not sure how that's really a problem. Thor is now a woman. Yes, the book is about that. How could it not have that as a core plot point?
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
Li Kao said:
Oh sorry, I thought the meaning was transparent enough. Well, I'm basically saying the same thing I said yesterday about the other issues :

"I would just say that the book would be a lot more enjoyable if it didn't revel in its polemism (is that a word ?) at every fucking opportunity.
I mean I'm ok to have a female Thor, really it's cool. Now if every character and his mother could stop being obsessed, angry, sad, happy, about that fact, it would be even cooler."

I don't hate the idea of a female Thor, but it's more or less the only thing the book is pushing, where Angela for example does so much more than that.
Click to expand...

Well, Marvel's main selling point is being a reflection of the real world so
 
C

choaffable

Member
From Daniel Elkin's review of Dini's Dark Knight
In no way does it acknowledge that the idea of masculinity that Batman represents for individuals like Paul Dini is wrong in its conception or toxic to the psyche, even as the comic itself show this. Rather, Dini is able to continue to compare himself to this model without it damaging his ego..reframing his own choices as heroic because he perseveres, just like Batman, just like a man is supposed to.

The problem is that nothing changes really. Dini may be able to get on with his life, but he ultimately continues to conceive of the world through the lens of a particular sensibility.
Click to expand...

Thought this review offered an interesting opinion that I'm sure the nerd mono-culture will decree as heresy. Note: I haven't read the book yet, but still look forward to it.
 
K

kmfdmpig

Member
choaffable said:
From Daniel Elkin's review of Dini's Dark Knight


Thought this review offered an interesting opinion that I'm sure the nerd mono-culture will decree as heresy. Note: I haven't read the book yet, but still look forward to it.
Click to expand...

It's interesting, but it makes me a bit unsettled to see a critique of a very personal experience which Dini lived through and blame him for not interpreting his situation in a different way.

He was almost killed. When he survived he almost became a shut in.

Nitpicking his use of pronouns or his focus on masculinity or perseverance seems quite a bit like victim blaming to me. I may be biased as I heard him talk about his experiences on Fatman on Batman and it was quite moving. One of the things he talked about was the shame and embarrassment of what had happened, so having his horrific experience examined through a microscope of identity politics seems distasteful, particularly as he goes out of his way not to blame his attackers, understand that his attackers likely had a more difficult path in life than he did, etc... That's somehow boiled down to this extreme reach of identity politics in "The white, frail man who has to be a hero at the expense of women, gays, and his own physical failings is the underlying operative notion behind the myth of the superhero and the business plan of corporate comics culture." When Dini talks about being a hero he means getting up off the street and getting back out of his apartment. That's not something that would come at the "expense of women or gays".

If it were not based on an actual experience I think that type of critique would be perfectly valid, but in this case it seems like a mean-spirited way to critique the work.
 
O

Owzers

Member
I'm finding Doom to be really dull, i need characters to yell out phrases all the time in order to enjoy a game these days.
 
W

whatsinaname

Member
kmfdmpig said:
It's interesting, but it makes me a bit disgusted to see a critique of a very personal experience which Dini lived through and blame him for not interpreting his situation in a different way.

He was almost killed. When he survived he almost became a shut in.

Nitpicking his use of pronouns or his focus on masculinity or perseverance seems quite a bit like victim blaming to me. I may be biased as I heard him talk about his experiences on Fatman on Batman and it was quite moving. One of the things he talked about was the shame and embarrassment of what had happened, so having his horrific experience examined through a microscope of identity politics seems distasteful, particularly as he goes out of his way not to blame his attackers, understand that his attackers likely had a more difficult path in life than he did, etc...

If it were not based on an actual experience I think that type of critique would be perfectly valid, but in this case it seems like a mean-spirited way to critique the work.
Click to expand...

I really disagree with that. Once Dini puts it down on paper for public consumption, it is absolutely expected that people will interpret it in different ways and pass judgement on it. I may not agree or disagree with Elkin's review, but I don't think it is fair to call it mean-spirited. Now if Dini talked about his experience to Elkin privately as an acquaintance and Elkin says the same things to him directly, that is a different matter altogether.
 
V

VanWinkle

Member
whatsinaname said:
I really disagree with that. Once Dini puts it down on paper for public consumption, it is absolutely expected that people will interpret it in different ways and pass judgement on it. I may not agree or disagree with Elkin's review, but I don't think it is fair to call it mean-spirited. Now if Dini talked about his experience to Elkin privately as an acquaintance and Elkin says the same things to him directly, that is a different matter altogether.
Click to expand...

I disagree. I think, with a review of an autobiography, it's shouldn't be a judgement of the actions the author made. I felt like a lot of the stuff he said was off-base, too, like he was overthinking it a lot more than Dini himself was (particularly in the use of pronouns, and the stuff about the insults). I mean, here you have an author recounting his traumatic beating, and this reviewer brings up the fact that he shouldn't be insulted by insults derived from derogatory names for women and homosexuals. And then acting like somehow, his inclusion of the derogatory remark is therefore his doing at the expense of gay people. Stuff like that makes it feel mean-spirited. In my mind, reviews of autobiographies seem weird anyway, but I would review the quality of the writing (and, in this case, the art) and whether it was a story worth telling. The author of this review instead made it a review of Paul Dini.
 
C

choaffable

Member
VanWinkle said:
I disagree. I think, with a review of an autobiography, it's shouldn't be a judgement of the actions the author made. I felt like a lot of the stuff he said was off-base, too, like he was overthinking it a lot more than Dini himself was (particularly in the use of pronouns, and the stuff about the insults). I mean, here you have an author recounting his traumatic beating, and this reviewer brings up the fact that he shouldn't be insulted by insults derived from derogatory names for women and homosexuals. And then acting like somehow, his inclusion of the derogatory remark is therefore his doing at the expense of gay people. Stuff like that makes it feel mean-spirited. In my mind, reviews of autobiographies seem weird anyway, but I would review the quality of the writing (and, in this case, the art) and whether it was a story worth telling. The author of this review instead made it a review of Paul Dini.
Click to expand...

It's not like Elkin is criticizing a facebook post. Dini's story of his mugging is packaged as a product that you can consume as a cultural artifact/piece of art. Even though it's autobiographical and based on true events, Dini and Risso still made artistic decisions in how they present the story. Sure, some of the identity politic criticism is nitpicky, but I still feel it present a valid reading of the text.

TL;DR: Just because it's true, it's still considered art.
 
W

whatsinaname

Member
VanWinkle said:
I disagree. I think, with a review of an autobiography, it's shouldn't be a judgement of the actions the author made. I felt like a lot of the stuff he said was off-base, too, like he was overthinking it a lot more than Dini himself was (particularly in the use of pronouns, and the stuff about the insults). I mean, here you have an author recounting his traumatic beating, and this reviewer brings up the fact that he shouldn't be insulted by insults derived from derogatory names for women and homosexuals. And then acting like somehow, his inclusion of the derogatory remark is therefore his doing at the expense of gay people. Stuff like that makes it feel mean-spirited. In my mind, reviews of autobiographies seem weird anyway, but I would review the quality of the writing (and, in this case, the art) and whether it was a story worth telling. The author of this review instead made it a review of Paul Dini.
Click to expand...

But why shouldn't Elkin be free to make judgements? I feel any autobigraphy is as much news article/retelling of life events as an editorial on said life events. Lets say another author had a similar experience but started harping on how the perpetrators were Black and wanting to join the KKK. How would you judge that author? If another author had a similar experience and talks about how the police failed to prevent the mugging and that the police and government are incompetent and turns into a sovcit, would you judge that author?

This also brings us to why someone writes an autobiographical book. Is it purely for catharsis? Then why publish it and share it? Is it to share something they have learnt? In which case it can and will be judged along those lines.
 
K

kmfdmpig

Member
choaffable said:
It's not like Elkin is criticizing a facebook post. Dini's story of his mugging is packaged as a product that you can consume as a cultural artifact/piece of art. Even though it's autobiographical and based on true events, Dini and Risso still made artistic decisions in how they present the story. Sure, some of the identity politic criticism is nitpicky, but I still feel it present a valid reading of the text.

TL;DR: Just because it's true, it's still considered art.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree that Elkin has the right to use that type of critique. It just feels distasteful to me.

You're right that it's a product, but it strikes me as a very personal one, not one intended primarily as a cash grab or one Dini envisions will yield personal fortune.

My issue is critiquing a victim. Where would we draw the line? Would this be open to similar critiques?
http://comicsalliance.com/something-terrible-dean-trippe-review-comic-batman-child-abuse/

Is it appropriate to critique Anne Frank for not trying to wrestle a gun away and shoot her way out of her situation?

I think in both cases the clear answer is no.

Dini's is not quite the same as he was an adult, but the core concept is the same, namely critiquing a victim's actions or coping methods.


whatsinaname said:
But why shouldn't Elkin be free to make judgements? I feel any autobigraphy is as much news article/retelling of life events as an editorial on said life events. Lets say another author had a similar experience but started harping on how the perpetrators were Black and wanting to join the KKK. How would you judge that author? If another author had a similar experience and talks about how the police failed to prevent the mugging and that the police and government are incompetent and turns into a sovcit, would you judge that author?

This also brings us to why someone writes an autobiographical book. Is it purely for catharsis? Then why publish it and share it? Is it to share something they have learnt? In which case it can and will be judged along those lines.
Click to expand...

In those cases the author would have introduced those types of political issues in an overt and blatant way, which makes critiques about them valid. To me that seems very different from this case as Dini is not railing against anything, which leads to the reviewer parsing his words and finding meaning that is either not there or not intended.
 
C

choaffable

Member
kmfdmpig said:
I don't disagree that Elkin has the right to use that type of critique. It just feels distasteful to me.

You're right that it's a product, but it strikes me as a very personal one, not one intended primarily as a cash grab or one Dini envisions will yield personal fortune.

My issue is critiquing a victim. Where would we draw the line? Would this be open to similar critiques?
http://comicsalliance.com/something-terrible-dean-trippe-review-comic-batman-child-abuse/

Is it appropriate to critique Anne Frank for not trying to wrestle a gun away and shoot her way out of her situation?

I think in both cases the clear answer is no.

Dini's is not quite the same as he was an adult, but the core concept is the same, namely critiquing a victim's actions or coping methods.

In those cases the author would have introduced those types of political issues in an overt and blatant way, which makes critiques about them valid. To me that seems very different from what Elkin has done as he is clearly grasping to turn Dini's thoughts into something that was not intended or at a minimum not blatant.
Click to expand...

You can criticize the Diary of Anne Frank as literature without criticizing her actions.
 
M

my name is ed

Banned
whatsinaname said:
So are layer masks like using masking tape? Or are there things you could do with it that is not possible with physical colouring?
Click to expand...
yeah pretty much in a way,

Id say the big difference is that with digital masking, you can adjust the mask without compromising or redrawing parts of the image. If you were using real masking tape, you're eventually gonna remove the tape and if you wanted to change the piece, it would take greater effort. Digital layer masks are a big time saver.

choaffable said:
From Daniel Elkin's review of Dini's Dark Knight


Thought this review offered an interesting opinion that I'm sure the nerd mono-culture will decree as heresy. Note: I haven't read the book yet, but still look forward to it.
Click to expand...
I haven't read the book either but I think I disagree with a lot of the points and the approach taken by Elkin

The whole 'I' vs 'we' or 'us' seems pretty contrived. Elkin believes this demonstrates Dini's assumptions about the reader; I do not. I think it's vague and depends with which intention you decide to read it. This wouldn't be a problem if it English had a nosotros/vosotros! :p

The critic keeps bringing up Dini's race but doesn't state how that affects how the story is told, unless I happened to have missed it during my read.

Elkin does have a point with insults like 'faggot' or 'bitch,' but the point doesn't stick in this case. As a victim of violence, its gonna be very difficult to disassociate his feelings over getting beat up and his feelings regarding the insults he received at the same time.

Criticizing Dini, as he portrays himself in this work, for failing to adjust his thinking in this context seems hmm like a big stretch? That's not something I would expect out of a coping victim. I would argue producing the work is a continuation of Dini coping with the incident.

Anyway, thanks for the link, I have to say I disagree with the approach and intent taken by Elkin but I appreciate the effort it went into it. Comics Bulletin often lets their critics write up longer pieces and thats usually a pretty good thing. This book is going on my wishlist, maybe I'll agree more after I read it
 
L

Li Kao

Member
Good god I just read some Secret Wars tie ins and I'm seriously considering skipping the majority of that shit. So secret wars offers me the wonderful opportunity to read 15 pages abyssmally written what ifs ? Secret Wars Battleworld, Journal, Spider-Verse, undercooked shit everywhere, just sad little embryos of stories.
Robin Hood with Kate Bishop ? The uncanny Egyptian X-Men ?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

House of the Dragon S2 |OT| Blood for Blood, Fire to Fire (no book discussion)
6 7 8 9 10
458
20K
EverydayBeast replied
Diablo 4 reached 10 million players in June, driving a record quarter for Blizzard
Sales-Age
36
2K
bender replied
Dragon Age: Veilguard Announced | Full reveal on June 11th
News 2 3 4 5
210
12K
Krathoon replied
PlayStation Plus Extra & Premium Game Catalog for June: Monster Hunter Rise, Football Manager 2024, Crusader Kings III, After Us and more
News
29
2K
TGO replied
Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation – Quest of Memories launches June 20 worldwide (day and date with the Japanese release)
News
2
740
STARSBarry replied
Top Bottom