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COMICS! |OT| October 2014. Witches, wytches, and things that go GROOT in the night.

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Yeah I'm a contrarian motherfucker like that. Out with the BAD continuity yes. BAD continuity, like trying to fit all the Robins into a five year span including somehow having Damian be 10 and Dick 25 (20 year old Robin yo).

Hypertime!!

But seriously, if they're going to undo Oracle and all that good stuff then I'm glad they're going for a relevant and fun new direction. Every time I tried to read the old run it was just so boring and lifeless.

And are you reading New Avengers? It's the best.

They established Dick became Robin at 15/16 in the #0 issue. Since it's been 5-6 years he's 20-22 now.

And yeah I follow New Avengers out of morbid fascination at the character assassination and train wreck that it is. But hey, it really doesn't matter how you sell something, right?
 

PsychBat!

Banned
And yeah I follow New Avengers out of morbid fascination at the character assassination and train wreck that it is. But hey, it really doesn't matter how you sell something, right?
boo_this_man_half_baked.gif
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
They established Dick became Robin at 15/16 in the #0 issue. Since it's been 5-6 years he's 20-22 now.

And yeah I follow New Avengers out of morbid fascination at the character assassination and train wreck that it is. But hey, it really doesn't matter how you sell something, right?

I'm reading Grayson, there's no way he's 22. No way at all.

Character assassination? On whom?

It's funny how our views on Future's End / new Avengers are polar opposites. How is it, living on a cube earth?
 

Not quality train wreck but what the characters are doing.

I just hope everyone who loves it also thinks that Superman was justified in killing Zod.

I'm going to be facing my own personal superhero dilemma with Lemire's Legion / JLU crossover. The story seems to be that the Legion returns to the past to kill Ultra the Omni Alien because he'll destroy everything in the future. This is problematic in so far as one: I prefer my heroes killings to be kept to a minimum and two: The Legion code specifically forbids killing. They wouldn't even use lethal force against Superboy Prime. It'll be curious to see where it goes.
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
Not quality train wreck but what the characters are doing.

I just hope everyone who loves it also thinks that Superman was justified in killing Zod.

I'm going to be facing my own personal superhero dilemma with Lemire's Legion / JLU crossover. The story seems to be that the Legion returns to the past to kill Ultra the Omni Alien because he'll destroy everything in the future. This is problematic in so far as one: I prefer my heroes killings to be kept to a minimum and two: The Legion code specifically forbids killing. They wouldn't even use lethal force against Superboy Prime. It'll be curious to see where it goes.

They're not heroes in this context anyway (whatever that nebulous, empty term even means anyway), they're kings and the morality on their shoulders is very different. I think Hickman has done very well in keeping the characters true to themselves while also having them need to make decisions that they've never had to contemplate before. It's a clever way to take a cosmic scale conflict (that in the past might be symbolised by massive entities made of stars punching each other) and focusing that tension down onto the shoulders of these men.

IMO this is one of the best event stories I have ever read. It's Crisis but with breathing room, it's Civil War with motivations that actually make sense now.
 

fertygo

Member
The illuminati are buncha douchebags even from way back then, so its not like they not in-line with their characterization.

Unless you want to argue Reed and Tony Stark is just as moral upstanding as Superman.
 
I just hope everyone who loves it also thinks that Superman was justified in killing Zod.

Forgive me as I disabuse you of these hopes. Sometimes it's fun to read super hero comics in which we watch everything that is heroic about them crumble to dust. It's so self-evident to me, I'm not sure how to begin to explain the difference.

The illuminati are buncha douchebags even from way back then, so its not like they not in-line with their characterization.

Unless you want to argue Reed and Tony Stark is just as moral upstanding as Superman.

This is a good start, though.

They're not heroes in this context anyway (whatever that nebulous, empty term even means anyway), they're kings and the morality on their shoulders is very different. I think Hickman has done very well in keeping the characters true to themselves while also having them need to make decisions that they've never had to contemplate before. It's a clever way to take a cosmic scale conflict (that in the past might be symbolised by massive entities made of stars punching each other) and focusing that tension down onto the shoulders of these men.

IMO this is one of the best event stories I have ever read. It's Crisis but with breathing room, it's Civil War with motivations that actually make sense now.

Also this. Well said Jedeye.
 
Forgive me as I disabuse you of these hopes. Sometimes it's fun to read super hero comics in which we watch everything that is heroic about them crumble to dust. It's so self-evident to me, I'm not sure how to begin to explain the difference.

You reach a point where the deconstruction and destruction of the once heroes reaches a point of being irredeemable. You're talking about genocide on the scale of entire worlds. How can that sort of character ever be a moral authority figure ever again?

"Yes, Dr. Strange
summoned Cthulu to murder a group of heroes
but he feels really bad about it".

Well, until they white wash it by saying they were possessed or something stupid.

I fully look forward to seeing how they try to redeem Namor.
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
You reach a point where the deconstruction and destruction of the once heroes reaches a point of being irredeemable. You're talking about genocide on the scale of entire worlds. How can that sort of character ever be a moral authority figure ever again? Well, until they white wash it by saying they were possessed or something stupid.

That's not a flaw, that's an essential part fo the story. How DO they come back from this, let alone fix it? What does this mean for the Marvel multiverse?
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
If the answer is they can't, then I'll be fully on board. But only if they commit to that.

Time will tell I guess, I think they're heading towards some universe altering, Flashpoint style thing fairly soon since there have been enough hints. But with Hickman at the helm I'm confident it can be pulled off with aplomb.

If anything I'm more concerned by what Remender is doing over in SIXIS. So far Remender has relied too much on the ol wibbly wobbly timey wimey resets to get him out of the corners he writes himself into. Hickman needs to skillfully avoid the trap of cheapening the story while somehow escalating and resolving the interpersonal conflicts which are the real core of the tale.

...

Meanwhile in Future's End, Tim Drake's girlfriend is sad that he lied to her.
 
Being a precocious asshole and
murdering worlds with some of Marvel's worst villains at his side
are two entirely separate things.

Okay. But he feels that he's completely justified because
he's putting his reality before all of the others. He's willing to go to any lengths to protect it. Even if that means teaming up with those who revel in the slaughter
… The important question here is what if there's no
way for the good guys to save the day and prevent the destruction of every universe? What if they can only choose one to save
?
 
Okay. But he feels that he's completely justified because
he's putting his reality before all of the others. He's willing to go to any lengths to protect it. Even if that means teaming up with those who revel in the slaughter
… The important question here is what if there's no
way for the good guys to save the day and prevent the destruction of every universe? What if they can only choose one to save
?

But we already know an out. You can destroy your own Earth and prevent future incursions. The book gives some throwaway line about this being the cowards way when it makes the most sense? Just go live on a new planet.
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
Okay. But he feels that he's completely justified because
he's putting his reality before all of the others. He's willing to go to any lengths to protect it. Even if that means teaming up with those who revel in the slaughter
… The important question here is what if there's no
way for the good guys to save the day and prevent the destruction of every universe? What if they can only choose one to save
?

This is exactly it IMO. I like the double-think that's involved. THIS is OUR reality, we know it to be real and for 7 billion people to be on the planet. This alternate earth... what do we owe it? is it better for 14 billion people to die instead of just 7? What if it's an earth filled with douchebag supernazis? Our priority should be our people, we should be prepared to kill to save our reality.

I'm with Tony on this one, Cap is just being too hopeful without any means to back it up. There is no reasoning with an earth that's crashing into you.
 
Small request: Everyone, please read Simon Spurrier's X-force. Best X-book on the stands that doesn't insult your intelligence.

In Avengers, I am excited about the hunting of the Illuminati but why is the baby of what's their name being given so many pages. And surprise...
the baby has got powers.
Lame and dumb.
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
But we already know an out. You can destroy your own Earth and prevent future incursions. The book gives some throwaway line about this being the cowards way when it makes the most sense? Just go live on a new planet.

Move the entire population to another earth? Through the incursion point which is only open for 12 hours? Or you're saying that the Illuminati should just abandon their own earth and let it be destroyed? That's insane (but it might be what happens, who knows?).

And it already happened in NA before the time jump anyway, the Illuminati gave up and were waiting to die until the Cabal stepped up.
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
Small request: Everyone, please read Simon Spurrier's X-force. Best X-book on the stands that doesn't insult your intelligence.

In Avengers, I am excited about the hunting of the Illuminati but why is the baby of what's their name being given so many pages. And surprise...
the baby has got powers.
Lame and dumb.

This is probably my biggest reservation about the arc so far - Sunspot and Cannonball are seemingly important to Hickman's plan but they've not done much in the way of being important yet. And tbh I was surprised when Cannonball had the baby because I thought they were a gay couple. I though "oh that's clever, having a gay dudebro couple, smashing stereotypes" but no, they're just dudebros.
 
Move the entire population to another earth? Through the incursion point which is only open for 12 hours? Or you're saying that the Illuminati should just abandon their own earth and let it be destroyed? That's insane (but it might be what happens, who knows?).

And it already happened in NA before the time jump anyway, the Illuminati gave up and were waiting to die until the Cabal stepped up.

Different planet in their own reality. Then blow up their Earth. No Earth to have an incursion point. Call up the Shiar and have them help evacuate. Use teleportation technology. Whatever.

Anyways! Time for some more at work comic catchup.
 
This is probably my biggest reservation about the arc so far - Sunspot and Cannonball are seemingly important to Hickman's plan but they've not done much in the way of being important yet. And tbh I was surprised when Cannonball had the baby because I thought they were a gay couple. I though "oh that's clever, having a gay dudebro couple, smashing stereotypes" but no, they're just dudebros.
Rofl, this was my exact feeling as well. I'm just disappointed that Hickman went this route. I wasn't a fan of Infinity but everything after that has made me love what he's doing on the Avengers.
 
I wouldn't be surprised at all by a Flashpoint event, yeah, but even if they don't, honestly, so what? How many different ways are there in comics to snap a hero back to their default setting? Practically the entire mechanism of comic book storytelling is set up to facilitate this. You don't need a universal reset button to do it, and no, it doesn't matter how significant their sins are (an entirely separate debate, since they are saving two entire universes with every Earth they destroy). It's very rare that an explanation is so bad that it retroactively ruins the story that preceded it, and nigh-unheard of that such actions lead a character to an irredeemable place. Jean Grey destroyed a planet...so? Plenty of great stories came out of that and the character recovered just fine, even if the rubber band snapped a little too hard on that one as they set her back in place. She bounced back. Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn having sex was a grotesque act of character assassination, but it didn't make the bridge death any less poignant, nor did it seriously interfere with Norman's capacity to be a convincing egomaniacal villain. Finally, isn't the ultimate point of no return for a literary character death? How often do we overcome that little hurdle?

Writers should always feel free to go as far as they need to with these characters in telling the best story they can possibly tell, the story they really want to tell, even if they only have a very loose, flimsy idea of how they are going to snap that rubber band back. Maybe they fail to reset the character properly, and are forced to mothball them for a period of years (i.e., Hal Jordan)...does that mean it wasn't worth the story? As long as the story was good, and worth telling, I would say the answer is certainly no.

Thus, while I also suspect this is part of a grander plan to realign the Marvel universe (likely to more closely resemble the MCU), I don't really care if Hickman's solution to this "de-heroification" is lame. The story he's telling now is incredibly epic, satisfying and unlike anything I've read before from the big two. That should be enough for anyone. Hand-wringing about the future of Tony Stark and Reed Richards isn't something I am about to start doing. Hand-wringing over the future of Namor? No no no. Come on now. He's more compelling with a streak of villainy anyway...let's see him go straight antagonist for a few years. Why not?

Edit: ha, I had the exact same read on the Cannonball/Sunspot situation

This is exactly it IMO. I like the double-think that's involved. THIS is OUR reality, we know it to be real and for 7 billion people to be on the planet. This alternate earth... what do we owe it? is it better for 14 billion people to die instead of just 7? What if it's an earth filled with douchebag supernazis? Our priority should be our people, we should be prepared to kill to save our reality.

Yes! Exactly. These are the sorts of questions I find so compelling in these books, and I will kill all of the sacred cows to see them explored. All of them.
 
Man, you guys make me want to read Hickmans avengers run really badly. Where does it start and what's the reading order? Are there trades or collections with the correct reading order?
 
Man, you guys make me want to read Hickmans avengers run really badly. Where does it start and what's the reading order? Are there trades or collections with the correct reading order?
Follow this chart.
I'm not sure if there are collections of both New Avengers and Avengers as of now, but the Infinity HC does include Infinity 1-6, New Avengers 7-12, Avengers 14-23
 

Jedeye Sniv

Banned
Man, you guys make me want to read Hickmans avengers run really badly. Where does it start and what's the reading order? Are there trades or collections with the correct reading order?

tbh the reading order is so complex that I don't quite know how to start explaining it, other than I'm sure there are guides somewhere online (or in the thread for it here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=900929 watch out, it's a bit spoilery in there)

Marvel did a "DC handling MozBats" here in that they've kinda fucked the trades. It's designed to be read in release order, roughly 2 issues of Avengers for each issue of New Avengers. But of course, Marvel just put them out as Avengers and New Avengers separately. I'm sure you can read it that way - Avengers itself is pretty self contained, and then New Avengers is adding context and depth to what is happening and then they fuse properly during Infinity before separating again.

The publishing model is certainly not very well geared to these kinds of stories IMO (see: Blackest Night clusterfuck of trade releases) but it's worth persevering with. Maybe start with Hickman's F4 omnibiis until Marvel do big re-releases of the Avengers.
 
Man that reading order is more fucked than I thought haha. It's cool for single issue release but I guess I'll wait for the omnibus or ultimate collections for reading them in print.
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
Remember when The Hood had the Infinity Gauntlet?

Oh dear.

I liked the idea of that. But if anyone was going do that, should've been The Kingpin. Now there's a guy who should be a bigger name villain. I mean I'll always maintain Dark Reign/The Siege works 150% better with Wilson Fisk as the main villain.
 

Messi

Member
I really don't like the Harley they use in Suicide Squad. It's everything that's wrong with the new 52 version. I'm glad Jimmy Palmiotti just avoids referencing her and seemed kind of dismissive about it in that recent panel.

Jokers Daughter whatever. DC missed the boat by not giving her an ongoing by the one shot people.
 
I really don't like the Harley they use in Suicide Squad. It's everything that's wrong with the new 52 version. I'm glad Jimmy Palmiotti just avoids referencing her and seemed kind of dismissive about it in that recent panel.

Jokers Daughter whatever. DC missed the boat by not giving her an ongoing by the one shot people.

Your usual passion is lacking. More Messithusiasm please.
 

Zeus Molecules

illegal immigrants are stealing our air
I liked the idea of that. But if anyone was going do that, should've been The Kingpin. Now there's a guy who should be a bigger name villain. I mean I'll always maintain Dark Reign/The Siege works 150% better with Wilson Fisk as the main villain.

Yes it does, but he wouldn't have fit in the iron patriot suit.
 

Tizoc

Member
Annhilator #2
Max Nomax is an awesome name, but I disliked how all Max did this issue is nag about wanting the writer to finish/write the story, geez.

Batman 35
Meh issue. I didn't bother with that Eternity's End or whatever the event was called, but
Joker again? Really?

Started this week.

With Batgirl #35? Thanks
 
Follow this chart.

I'm not sure if there are collections of both New Avengers and Avengers as of now, but the Infinity HC does include Infinity 1-6, New Avengers 7-12, Avengers 14-23

The necessary trades for Avengers and New Avengers are Avengers vol. 1 and 2 (maybe 3 as well, it contains issues 12 and 13, but the rest in that trade are in the Infinity trade) and New Avengers vol. 1.
 

Messi

Member
Eh I'll fix it but honestly? Not really a big deal from what I'm seeing, it just made me less interested in the story...not that I was THAT interested in it to begin with :V

But Snyder was pretty clear that the reveal was intentionally hidden. I was surprised by it.
 
Jokers Daughter whatever. DC missed the boat by not giving her an ongoing by the one shot people.

Ohhh god no. DC was smart to sink that boat, their only mistake was giving her a lifeboat to Suicide Squad and using her in other areas. Seriously terrible character.





So ComicCon was, interesting. I feel like it gets more poorly organized each year. I think if I go next year, I have to remember and get a pro pass. Going with a regular pass meant just standing around waiting for major portions of the day. The walk from Penn Station to the Javits center, which is like a 10 minutes walk, was shorter than the Walk from the Javits center to the end of the fucking line. (which took 20 minutes to get to).

I only went to the Big Hero 6/Tomorrowland panel, but it was good. We saw probably 10 - 15 minutes of footage from Big Hero 6, and probably 5 - 7 from Tomorrowland. Both look amazing. I spent most of my time on the show floor going through long boxes and picking up a bunch of back issues I needed, mostly stuff from the 80s. Stuff I read as a kid that my cousin owned and I'm slowly getting a hold of myself.

I spent a bunch of time in artist's alley as well. Though I didn't buy any prints or get any signatures, mostly because I'm fucking broke right now. I was happy to see Amanda Conner had a crazy long line, she deserves the fans. Babs Tarr had a crazy long line too.

I thought it was CRAZY how packed it was on a Thursday. Today, and Saturday are going to be MADE houses. Good luck to anyone still going.

Ohhh Also you guys should go to Hill Country BBQ Market for dinner or lunch. It's at 30th W26th Street. Which is like a 20 - 30 minute walk from the Javits center. It's amazing though, some of the best BBQ I've ever had. I went there last night after I left the con and they had a special of smoked pork belly. OMFG was it good.



*edit*

Also Batman 35 was fucking incredible.
 

Tizoc

Member
But Snyder was pretty clear that the reveal was intentionally hidden. I was surprised by it.

Way I see it
the Joker may not even be the main mastermind and its someone else who is using Joker to use the JL or their dopplegangers to take on Bruce
Maybe this arc will deliver who knows, but so far the only book that's managed to keep in suspense and blow my mind is Transformers: MTMTE, whose next issue better be released next week I need to know what happensssssssssssssssssssssssss.
 
Finally read Batgirl #35. Overall I liked it but my criticism that Barbara feels really out of character remains. She is hyper violent in this issue in a way that surprised me. She is immediately going to hit people even when they haven't gotten physical themselves. I liked the detective vision they use with her, very neat, seeing her thought process. But she seemed weirdly able to remember things despite having been
drunk to the point of blacking out
? Why would she have been surprised by her
random hookup
in the morning if she remembered every detail aside from that the night before? Her
#hashtag
villain was endearing in a dumb sort of way. Also, way to be a colossal bitch to
Dinah
when everything bad that happened is her fault? Lol?
 
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