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[Sianos]

Dude, it's not a little bit of tweaking involved. A little bit of tweaking=AC:Liberation=half assed job. PLUS she has to be rigged to fit in literally every single outfit that Arno has not to mention fit all the animations. Please don't act like it's "oh just a little bit of tweaking here and there"

She wouldn't need every outfit Arno has, I assume that this character is going to wear clothes herself and would already have her own unique animations for assassining. Whatever tweaks do need to be made can then be applied to the base character herself, making the single player look more fluid as well.

I explained that to you multiple times in the case of AC Unity but you kinda just blatantly ignored it so...

And I've explained to you many times that your dismissive attitude towards women and that their inclusion in the co-op is not worthy of proper resources from a giant corporate team is exactly what I have a problem with and is illustrative of greater overall attitutudes in society.

 

[ab.aeterno]

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/14/entertainment/la-et-1214-moca-mural-20101214

I'm not seeing where criticism caused it to be removed; it seems the commissioner of the work removed it himself because he felt it was inappropriate.

I was speaking more to the idea that, after having one work criticized, the same creator is stifled creatively in their next endeavor. But I don't want to move goal posts, so I'll just have to say I strongly disagree with the assertion that art criticism is harmful to art.

People can say whatever they want, and other people can say whatever they want in return as long as hate speech isn't involved as far as I'm concerned. Progress in this isn't made by criticizing games that are currently being made but getting to a place where a whole LOT MORE games get made by a lot more different people and different points of view and character origins/backgrounds get represented. The problem isn't with what IS getting made but what ISN'T.

What? I just provided an example of progress being made when games that were in production were criticized. You're asserting something incredibly broad but in no way arguing why it's true. I reject your argument without reservation; progress is made through criticism because it brings up these issues, and discussion raises awareness. If art was never criticized, it would never get better. That's art 101. You don't become a stronger writer without criticism.

Your distinction, too, seems without purpose. The problem is just as much with what's being made, as it with what isn't. If what was being made wasn't a problem, this issue wouldn't exist. This issue exists because of what's always being made.

It can. It's just that the experience of the single player is designed to never change Arno is always Arno. The projection can change but it's a change that doesn't make any impact to the character that the player controls himself or herself.

You're doing the exact thing I was describing: using a design decision they made to justify their inability make a subsequent design decision. They wouldn't have this problem if they'd designed it in a different way than players always seeing Arno, or accommodating co-op companions to be random genders or ethnicities.

 

[fade_]

I don't know about dictate but I don't see why we can't have the option of playing as a girl in co-op modes and multiplayer.

There is no multiplayer, the co-op mode is everyone playing as Arno but seeing the other players as different characters. I guess you could argue that the other characters should be shown as a female character?

 

[Zoe]

She wouldn't need every outfit Arno has, I assume that this character is going to wear clothes herself and would already have her own unique animations for assassining. Whatever tweaks do need to be made can then be applied to the base character herself, making the single player look more fluid as well.

The customizations that are visible to other players are the same as the ones you give yourself in SP, so the outfits would need to be the same.

 

[figadapaura]

Exactly the point. If they did make a female character, she would be one of two characters you can actually play as. In cutscenes, you'd still see Arno. That would be pretty half-assed. I don't think that they're really fighting for what amounts to a glorified skin. I imagine they want a female *character*.

No, they want their avatar on co-op to be female whether they see them or not.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Yeah but that's due to the fact that female and male characters don't have the same running and walking animations in the game
The other animations (attacks, parry, etc.) are shared though (I think).

Pretty sure that's only in Dark Souls II, which uses mo-cap. In any case, it's so subtle as to make no difference.

The idle poses are completely borked for female characters, though. The shoulders look awful.

....What

The most offensive part of all of this is the implication that female characters have to have the hip wiggle walk.

Jesus christ video games stop it. no one actually walks this way. We all more or less walk the same fucking way.

This. Unless you're doing the Alison walk, of course:

But yeah an assassin or warrior doing an utilitarian walking/climbing/fighting doesn't even need a different set of animations...

They get teased for it a ton too. But none of those devs gave the reasons that Ubisoft did.

Funnily enough their new official statement (everyone is the main character at all times) is perfectly fine and if they'd gone with it from the start there wouldn't be a problem.

Exactly.

but why does it matter now? If a company wants to make a story based on a male character... why does it HAVE to always have a female character involved?

Again... they tell stories... stories that dont HAVE to be shoehorned into a generic "include every sex/every race!" bubble...

There is a difference between missing features like framerate, resolution, quality, and missing content, like missing an ethnicity or gender, or orientation.

When the complaint about missing content is used to drive a particular agenda,

Again, I find it interesting that if it's a white male it's normal and expected but if it's anyone else it's "shoehorning" or "having an agenda"...

Yes.

I disagree. I don't think the motivations are based in inherent sexism. Laziness and misuse of resources are more likely.

The Lord made Eve second because the animations were trickier and he needed more time.

LOL

 

[Crossing Eden]

The post I quoted wasn't talking about AC Unity, more videogames in general.

Why do you have to be so patronizing?

I just think that it's really ridiculous imo to target this series for this type of discussion when it's represented woman more so than a lot of other game franchises. Including a bundle as the reason to buy one of the new handhelds at the time while advertising their female character. Who's story was so good that it was the only one in the series to ever win a writing award while some of the other ones were nominated.

Not to mention the fact that most of the people up in arms about this were misinformed about many different mechanics of the game in the first place.
All that being said I'm not trying to sound patronizing though so I apologize that last post was rude.

 

[Oersted]

To those who use artistic vision/ story as an excuse... you do realize Ubisoft does not agree? Their "excuse" is treating women as a lesser priority compared to men is a standard in the industry. That is their excuse. No artistic vision, no story.

 

[SlickVic]

What a poor way for Ubi to handle this. All they needed to say was you always play as Arnaud in the game, single player and co-op. With the way our multiplayer works in this game and how it is integrated into the single player game, it did not make sense for us to introduce different playable characters.

Going into animation counts just makes them come off as lazy, when really this just seems like a design decision based on them going with an integrated co-op multiplayer this year vs. a separate multiplayer mode in past AC games.

I guess I'm also not sure why gamers make such a big deal about these issues. I love when games have gender choice for the main character, but at the same time, I don't think it needs to be shoehorned into every game. If you are going to allow players to choose their gender in game, I think it needs to be meaningful and properly thought out beyond a trivial avatar swap. And if Ubi's plan for the game is to develop one character in Arnaud during the course of the game, I'm ok with that. I'd just like to see them try more AC games with a female protagonists in the future.

 

[TheLight]

This is hardly a response to questioning the lack of female representation in games, but I especially refuse to believe that including a single female assassin among four possible co-op characters would have any negative impact on how a game sells.

I was generally talking about main protagonists in a game. I wasn't questioning the lack of representation in games, I fully acknowledge it.

 

[dancingphlower]

It would be nice for more diverse choices in customization, but Ubisoft is not obligated to make a game catering to a specific group of people. Money talks, though.

Just going to leave this here:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DUguWLpebXg

 

[The Librarian]

It would be nice for more diverse choices in customization, but Ubisoft is not obligated to make a game catering to a specific group of people. Money talks, though.

Just going to leave this here:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DUguWLpebXg

Having options to play as a girl in multiplayer or co-op is catering to women?

How about it's inclusive and benefits everyone?

 

[Vermillion]

No, they want their avatar on co-op to be female whether they see them or not.

That's even stranger, then. Those are non-characters. I mean, if that represents equality to people, or equal representation, so be it.

But usually the argument for equal representation goes that people want to play as people like themselves, or see people like themselves in leading roles.

 

[dancingphlower]

Having options to play as a girl in multiplayer or co-op is catering to women?

How about it's inclusive and benefits everyone?

Specific group of people does not mean solely women. I was merely referring to the audience that wants to see more diversity in games.

At the end of the day, they can make whatever game they want. No one is forced to buy these games. Speaking up about it is nice, but that message needs to be reflected in the sales as well.

 

[Starless]

Good. I'd like to see more devs calling out AAA industry bullshit.

 

[HoodWinked]

liberation videogame

you know thats kind of why i'm surprised (well more confused) that ubisoft was the one being made the example. sometimes its just really nebulous how things get to this point and social media is usually to blame for it. i think its funny that witcher manages to dodge any of said controversy and yes i know its based on existing works but who analyzes facts before stuff gets outta control like this.

 

[Crossing Eden]

She wouldn't need every outfit Arno has, I assume that this character is going to wear clothes herself and would already have her own unique animations for assassining.

And I've explained to you many times that your dismissive attitude towards women and that their inclusion in the co-op is not worthy of proper resources from a giant corporate team is exactly what I have a problem with and is illustrative of greater overall attitutudes in society.

Yes she would because that's the way MP works in this game. Everyone sees the outfits that people are actually wearing in their game. So YES, they would to remodel that for literally every outfit for Arno wears. I'm not saying that women aren't worthy of proper resources in games. i'm saying it's not necessary in this specific context.

 

[The Librarian]

Specific group of people does not mean solely women. I was merely referring to the audience that wants to see more diversity in games.

Why is that a bad thing?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Having options to play as a girl in multiplayer or co-op is catering to women?

How about it's inclusive and benefits everyone?

You're literally not playing as a female character because you always see yourself as Arno. Just like Aiden in Watch Dogs.

 

[dancingphlower]

Why is that a bad thing?

It's not. I mean, I want better representation of Asians in video games (in popular media in general, really). But Ubisoft isn't obligated to do so. It's their game.

 

[HoodWinked]

It's not. I mean, I want better representation of Asians in video games (in popular media in general, really). But Ubisoft isn't obligated to do so. It's their game.

farcry4's protagonist is apparently asian

 

[The Librarian]

It's not. I mean, I want better representation of Asians in video games (in popular media in general, really). But Ubisoft isn't obligated to do so. It's their game.

They may not be obligated to do so but that doesn't mean we can't criticize them for not thinking making a female character wasn't important when they had an opportunity.

 

[Crossing Eden]

you know thats kind of why i'm surprised (well more confused) that ubisoft was the one being made the example. sometimes its just really nebulous how things get to this point and social media is usually to blame for it. i think its funny that witcher manages to dodge any of said controversy and yes i know its based on existing works but who analyzes facts before stuff gets outta control like this.

I seriously wouldn't believe that they don't have the time if this wasn't a Fall 2014 release and if they already hadn't stated that they're trying to polish and finish the game at the same time.

 

[Kinyou]

It would be nice for more diverse choices in customization, but Ubisoft is not obligated to make a game catering to a specific group of people. Money talks, though.

Just going to leave this here:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DUguWLpebXg

Bioware really have to step up their game

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

To those who use artistic vision/ story as an excuse... you do realize Ubisoft does not agree? Their "excuse" is treating women as a lesser priority compared to men is a standard in the industry. That is their excuse. No artistic vision, no story.

But they might have to make PMS mini-games! And your love interest/spouse might be a man!

 

[foamdino]

If Ubi are as big as they seem to be, they should devote resources to modelling and animating female characters.

If an animator/character artist in AAA games says it can be done without too much additional effort, it should be a no-brainer to just do it. Especially if the game allows you to choose an avatar. In heavily story driven games there's an argument to having a fixed protagonist, but it seems that isn't the case here.

As a gamer, having to defend my hobby to the wider world is harder when the industry seems so adamant to exclude women (and yeah characters which are not "generic white guy" are pretty rare too). Ubisoft you messed up and the excuse is just that.

 

[Crossing Eden]

If Ubi are as big as they seem to be, they should devote resources to modelling and animating female characters.

If an animator/character artist in AAA games says it can be done without too much additional effort, it should be a no-brainer to just do it. Especially if the game allows you to choose an avatar. In heavily story driven games there's an argument to having a fixed protagonist, but it seems that isn't the case here.

That is EXACTLY the case here. This game has unique MP like WatchDogs and PeaceWalker where everyone sees themselves as the main character during MP.

 

[Doombacon]

Yes she would because that's the way MP works in this game. Everyone sees the outfits that people are actually wearing in their game. So YES, they would to remodel that for literally every outfit for Arno wears. I'm not saying that women aren't worthy of proper resources in games. i'm saying it's not necessary in this specific context.

Make her flat chested or use chest binders and have the same build as Arno. Problem fucking solved.

 

[Zoe]

Make her flat chested or use chest binders and have the same build as Arno. Problem fucking solved.

Only thing different would be the face then. Which wouldn't be visible most of the time.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Make her flat chested or use chest binders and have the same build as Arno. Problem fucking solved.

Idk about you. But I don't see anything feminine about any of these outfits which can be worn by the main character.

Dat forearm and giant axe. Not to mention that there's tons more. Also, why would a female assassin wear chest binders when no female assassin in the series has ever done that. You're not playing as a different character other than Arno. And no it's problem solved, there's tons of polish to be added to these things.

 

[Vermillion]

Only thing different would be the face then. Which wouldn't be visible most of the time.

The more concessions that people are making makes it seem more and more inconsequential. In reality, everyone thought that there were four playable characters and figured one should be female. Then they found out that wasn't the case and they're striving for less and less as they find out what the game is actually like.

 

[HoodWinked]

I seriously wouldn't believe that they don't have the time if this wasn't a Fall 2014 release and if they already hadn't stated that they're trying to polish and finish the game at the same time.

ya i had a long post drawn up but i decided not to post it about the difficulty of bringing it in this late into development and ubi already seems to struggle to get stuff complete at deadline. sure they could have planned to have it from the beginning im actually inclined to believe they may have but when you're tabulating all the features you're going to include in the next installment, the work to add another player mesh/voice/animation was probably more work than they were willing to commit. even if you think its small is still another in a huge pile of todos to get the game finished.

assassins creed has like a 1 year turnaround so its built like a sports game at this point so they're probably scrambling i tend to side with the developers because game development is fucking hard like really fucking hard and relative shitty pay for its difficulty due to the competitiveness of the industry. sometimes you just get put in a difficult situation i try to look at it from their side.

 

[captainnapalm]

ya i had a long post drawn up but i decided not to post it about the difficulty of bringing it in this late into development and ubi already seems to struggle to get stuff complete at deadline. sure they could have planned to have it from the beginning im actually inclined to believe they may have but when you're tabulating all the features you're going to include in the next installment, the work to add another player mesh/voice/animation was probably more work than they were willing to commit. even if you think its small is still another in a huge pile of todos to get the game finished.

assassins creed has like a 1 year turnaround so its built like a sports game at this point so they're probably scrambling i tend to side with the developers because game development is fucking hard like really fucking hard and relative shitty pay for its difficulty due to the competitiveness of the industry. sometimes you just get put in a difficult situation i try to look at it from their side.

I'm sure this was the case. The problem is people are taking what was purely a schedule/budget decision and taking it as a slight against women. I'm sure they couldn't afford to see this playable female character as anything other than the time and money it would take to complete it. They had their main character to use across modes and they decided to stick with that.

And if they used that time to further polish the SP, or work on the core gameplay, systems, missions, story etc - then it's a decision I can fully get behind.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm sure this was the case. The problem is people are taking what was purely a schedule/budget decision and taking it as a slight against women. I'm sure they couldn't afford to see this playable female character as anything other than the time and money it would take to complete it. They had their main character to use across modes and they decided to stick with that.

And if they used that time to further polish the SP, or work on the core gameplay, systems, missions, story etc - then it's a decision I can fully get behind.

Exactly how I feel about this situation. Now if this were an rpg where you can have a fully customizable blank slate character then it'd be different. But it's an AC game. Which is basically the complete opposite.

 

[Doombacon]

Idk about you. But I don't see anything feminine about any of these outfits which can be worn by the main character.

Why does a female assassin need to be wearing "feminine" clothing in the first place? Why would a female assassin be trained in a different form of martial combat to the rest of the assassins?

 

[Easy_D]

If they only had an animation library that was specifically for a female MC this all wouldn't have happened.

...whoops!

Next Ubisoft is gonna justify it by saying it's actually a man in drag.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Why does a female assassin need to be wearing "feminine" clothing in the first place? Why would a female assassin be trained in a different form of martial combat to the rest of the assassins?

Because the female body is different from the male body. A fit medium build athletic build woman is different from a fit athletic build man. None of those outfits would look cool or natural for a woman to wear. It's not as simple as swapping out a face.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

None of those outfits would look cool or natural for a woman to wear.

....Whaaaat?

 

[APF]

How does the Souls series manage such an impossible task?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

How does the Souls series manage such an impossible task?

From Software has ten times the budget and staff as Ubisoft, didn't you know?

 

[Zoe]

....Whaaaat?

While I disagree with that, would it really be satisfactory to people if those were female characters with those clothes hanging and fitting the exact same way?

Again, that person was basically just proposing a face swap to make the character female.

 

[Crossing Eden]

....Whaaaat?

What about those outfits look like they were made for anything other than Arno?

 

[Neuromancer]

This would actually be a fantastic conceit for an Assassin's Creed game. A modern-day male descendant having to deal with being in a woman's body in a much less gender-enlightened past.

That's a better idea than any AC game has ever been based on (except for Black Flag, because pirates.)

 

[APF]

From Software has ten times the budget and staff as Ubisoft, didn't you know?

That's gotta be it!

 

[Morrigan Stark]

While I disagree with that, would it really be satisfactory to people if those were female characters with those clothes hanging and fitting the exact same way?

Again, that person was basically just proposing a face swap to make the character female.

It'd certainly be better than nothing. Women can wear "men's clothes" all the time. My own choice of daily attire is jeans and t-shirt after all. In the Souls games, you have some outfits that are slightly different when worn on a female avatar than on a male, and you have some outfits that are identical. It's not controversial.

 

[Crossing Eden]

How does the Souls series manage such an impossible task?

By having
-gender ambiguous animations
-a blank slate character with no personality to speak of
-character rigs and animations are in no way shape or form as complex as this game
-by reusing tons of assets instead of building games completely from the ground up

 

[Stormhammer]

How does the Souls series manage such an impossible task?

An impossible task of what?

 

[Zoe]

It'd certainly be better than nothing. Women can wear "men's clothes" all the time. My own choice of daily attire is jeans and t-shirt after all. In the Souls games, you have some outfits that are slightly different when worn on a female avatar than on a male, and you have some outfits that are identical. It's not controversial.

But the Souls games also have varying body frames. These four characters have the exact same body frame.

 

[APF]

If there are four of a person in co-op how are their shared animations indicative of a unique personality?

 

[Crossing Eden]

An impossible task of what?

He's being sarcastic and comparing a series that has completely different development hurdles. In other words he or she is not adding anything to the discussion.