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[Mr Moose]

I read in the news that the Oceans are now all freshwater since the release of Destiny on the X1. As if the salt were just magically sucked out of it and spread somewhere else.

That's just silly.

Spoiler

Destiny hasn't been released yet

A) The point was that there was no "other side of the argument" before. Nobody was bitching about the PS3 needing more time/attention. It wasn't this pervasive thing that took over every thread about every modern game.

B) I have both a PS4 and XBO, I'm on the "think with your brain" side.



What does that have to do with the time put in? Over and over in this very thread, it's "if the PS4 got the same attention, it would be even better". If that's your take, fine, but I think it's fair to defend that concept over more than just the last 6 months of game development.

PS3 version of Destiny doesn't look as good as the 360 version (at least, not from the screens I've seen). If those versions aren't looking the same when they are roughly the same power, why should the PS4 version be identical to the XBO version when one has a clear advantage?

(I'm thinking back to the "full parity" shit said in that IGN video, I won't support that, it didn't happen last gen).

 

[crappybannedjunior999999]

A) The point was that there was no "other side of the argument" before. Nobody was bitching about the PS3 needing more time/attention. It wasn't this pervasive thing that took over every thread about every modern game.

B) I have both a PS4 and XBO, I'm on the "think with your brain" side.



What does that have to do with the time put in? Over and over in this very thread, it's "if the PS4 got the same attention, it would be even better". If that's your take, fine, but I think it's fair to defend that concept over more than just the last 6 months of game development.

I bitched all last gen to get devs to work harder on PS3 versions. Lots of people did. You apparently, like most devs, didn't listen. The think with your brain side would dictate that games should never look the same on systems where there is a decided power advantage. If the FR and RES are both equal then added particle effects or aliasing or one of many other things should be apparent in the game on the more powerful hardware. If it's not then the developer should be questioned (not in El Toro manner,that was awesome).

The day one patches will be what determines what these versions will look like. Until then it's fun to debate and more importantly make Bungie aware of our expectations.

 

[Majanew]

Not just Kinecturd, but horrible drivers initially. Judging the difference by initial games was a mistake, now with mature drivers that probably closer match the polish of PS4 drivers and no more Kinect reserve, we're starting to see what the true difference looks like, which for some reason is pissing off PS4 fans who want the old ways to continue. They don't closely follow Xbone developments and now blindly blame developers for the smaller differences.

Game development involves a target, for PS4 it was 1080p 30fps with the set of visuals that the artists and graphics engineers believe can be achieved; for Xbox One it was 900p 30fps with that same or similar goal. Proof right there that they were pushing beyond what Xbone could do, with only PS4 able to hit 1080p, it was only after the SDK improvements that they're now able to hit 1080p on Xbone, has nothing to do with lazy developers or under-targeted PS4 development.

The gap is still there, always will be, and it's still significant.

 

[psn]

Xbox One is 1.31 TFLOPS, not 1.23.

XB1: 1.31 TFLOPS
PS4: 1.84 TFLOPS
40%. Was 56% when XB1 was 1.18 thanks to Kinecturd.

Thanks, you are right. There was an upclock, the article was a bit too old maybe.

Anyway, it is not only about TFLOPS. There are 50% more CU's, it shares the same amount of ACEs as the 290x (see below), twice as many rops which should lead to a 100% higher pixel fillrate etc..

http://gearnuke.com/amd-flagship-r9-290x-has-same-number-of-aces-as-the-ps4/

 

[Kssio_Aug]

I bitched all last gen to get devs to work harder on PS3 versions. Lots of people did. You apparently, like most devs, didn't listen. The think with your brain side would dictate that games should never look the same on systems where there is a decided power advantage. If the FR and RES are both equal then added particle effects or aliasing or one of many other things should be apparent in the game on the more powerful hardware. If it's not then the developer should be questioned (not in El Toro manner,that was awesome).

The day one patches will be what determines what these versions will look like. Until then it's fun to debate and more importantly make Bungie aware of our expectations.

And what do you think a day 1 patch would do for the PS4 version?

I think your concept is right when it comes to specific games, like COD: Ghosts, where they should have released the game at 1080p from release (specially because the game did not look good). But Destiny is a complete different case... they have reached the standards for PS4 here already. The game runs at 1080p with stable frame rate, and it looks good! Talking like this seems that Bungie has not made a good work on the PS4 version, what is untrue! And now that they reached it, they should work on the Xone version, so the other part of their player base can also play a good looking game, with adequate resolution and stable frame rate.

 

[JaggedSac]

Wow... So put effort into the XB1 to reach its potential, but let the PS4 sit below its potential and why? PS4 ownners pay the same $60, they want the same effort.

The two consoles are not equal, there is no reason the final product should be equal If they are it means they put less work into one than the other. Great for XB1 owners who want to think their machine is just as powerful, but PS4 owners want more. 1080P 30fps at these visuals is a cake walk for the PS4. It should be hitting 60fps, the only reason they are not is they capped the frame rate and left the PS4 version in a less than optimal state.

Don't PS4 owners get more content for the money they spend on this game? That non-parity, to me, is a far, far bigger thing.

Yeah, sure, fuck the extra p's, give Bone owners those extra missions.

 

[psn]

And what do you think a day 1 patch would do for the PS4 version?

I think your concept is right when it comes to specific games, like COD: Ghosts, where they should have released the game at 1080p from release (specially because the game did not look good). But Destiny is a complete different case... they have reached the standards for PS4 here already. The game runs at 1080p with stable frame rate, and it looks good!

And where is the difference to the x360 / ps3 days?

I don't think there is something like a "standard". They should do the best they can on both platforms. That's how it always has been*, that's how it always should be.

*graphical intensive / demanding games

Spoiler

The exception proves the
rule

 

[Mr Moose]

Don't PS4 owners get more content for the money they spend on this game? That non-parity, to me, is a far, far bigger thing.

No, timed exclusive content doesn't mean PS4 owners get more, they get it before, just like Xbox with CoD and other games.
(Or timed exclusive games from EA).

 

[JaggedSac]

No, timed exclusive content doesn't mean PS4 owners get more, they get it before, just like Xbox with CoD and other games.
(Or timed exclusive games from EA).

For a damn year. That is more egregious than any of the others you listed. Especially when the cost for the packs are the same. Tantamount to preordering content. Ridiculous.

 

[Mr Moose]

For a damn year. That is more egregious than any of the others you listed. Especially when the coat for the packs are the same. Tantamount to preordering content. Ridiculous.

Timed exclusive games for a damn 6 months-ish? (Wait, when did PvZ GW come out on XBO?).

Edit: We don't know when the timed exclusive content will make its appearance on the PS4 yet (Or do we? I haven't paid much attention to it), it could be at launch, it could be next year.

 

[Kssio_Aug]

And where is the difference to the x360 / ps3 days?

I don't think there is something like a "standard". They should do the best they can on both platforms. That's how it always has been*, that's how it always should be.

*graphical intensive / demanding games

Spoiler

The exception proves the
rule

The standards I mean by what PS4 has already shown. Destiny is not looking bad in comparison with anything I played on PS4. Even the exclusive games, that indeed looks better (infamous and killzone) are not THAT far way better then Destiny.

When new exclusives push more the system, and better visuals starts to become a PS4 new "standard" then I think naturally mutiplatform developers will have to push their games visuals to look more like those exclusives as the time goes. Destiny however is doing good for what we have already seen on the system, and its a cross-gen title, theyre doing a great job.

 

[malfcn]

The gap is still there, always will be, and it's still significant.

You ignored what he said. There are targets in mind. The Xbox want targeted for 1080, but optimizations brought it there.
And there is more than just resolution. Everyone gets hung up on pixel counts but it's how they are rendered. There are draw distances, shaders, details and other differences still visible.

For example: a shirt with buttons. The could both be 1080p. But one version may have no buttons on it. On paper they are the same, but visibly they are still slightly distinguishable.

 

[crappybannedjunior999999]

Was just thinking about the "parity" topic. I've seen it a lot. So I am wondering how much MORE do the people complaining think the ps4 can really do?

Irrelevant, we won't know for years. The only thing relevant in regards to Destiny and parity is that we know, inarguably, that the PS4 is more powerful and and there is no manifestation of said power other than a curved HUD in the Destiny Beta. Hence. the skepticism.

 

[funkystudent]

We saw a gap between exclusives and multiplat games last gen but it seems wider this gen.

I wonder if multiplats will close that gap. Infamous, Killzone and Drive Club blow everything out of the water visually and by a wide margin. PS3 TLOU and Uncharted looked great but I would say they only looked a bit better the something like a later Dead Space game etc....

This gen the gap between Killzone and Infamous versus just everything else available is staggering for this early into the generation. Its like looking at a high end PC game last gen like the Witcher 2 and then comparing it to Skyrim.


Developers can strive for parity between XB1 and PS4 versions all they want but as long as Sony studios are producing games that look 5 steps a head of them i dont know....... It will be a interesting situation to follow as the generation progresses.

 

[JaggedSac]

Timed exclusive games for a damn 6 months-ish? (Wait, when did PvZ GW come out on XBO?).

Sure, but you couldn't pay $40 for less of the game to get the rest of it a year later. That is what Bungie is doing with the DLC. Same cost, less content. Do it like everyone else and make the stuff separate packs to pay for.

 

[DangerDave]

Haven't played the beta. Are they using a shitty FXAA setting or does the IQ actually look sharp?

From what I've seen its using a mega blur inducing FXAA for anti aliasing. I wish there was an option to turn this off. The blurry image/streaking while I'm trying to scan an area totally kills it for me.

 

[LittleJohnny]

The gap is still there, always will be, and it's still significant.

I never said the overall gap is gone.

Here's what I'm saying, and excuse the 30 seconds messing with Paint

 

[Chobel]

Sure, but you couldn't pay $40 for less of the game to get the rest of it a year later. That is what Bungie is doing with the DLC. Same cost, less content. Do it like everyone else and make the stuff separate packs to pay for.

I think most (all?) people prefer having timed exclusive content than waiting timed exclusive games. You're paying the same price anyway.

 

[Windom Earle]

PS4 version will sell better undoubtedly so why not give the biggest audience a better version? Parity always sucks.

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

So if Bungie releases Destiny on PC and it runs at parity with the console versions, are people going to defend that as well?

Seriously, I don't understand why parity is excusable for perhaps the biggest budget AAA game coming out this fall. I'm pretty sure they have the resources to push the more powerful console.

 

[Girder_Shade]

Very hard for XBO to output in native 1080p because of the memory bandwidth limits of DDR3. It's still possible but difficult at similar visual fidelity.

MS were stupid in not giving the XBO at least some GDDR5 memory. They could've done 6GB DDR3 system memory and 2GB GDDR5 for video and there would barely be a graphical discrepancy between the two consoles even with a slightly weaker GPU.

 

[TrueGrime]

PS4 version will sell better undoubtedly so why not give the biggest audience a better version? Parity always sucks.

Who knows? Why do companies set goals that are within their time and resources? When that goal is hit are they always expected to over-exceed those goals?

No.

 

[Windom Earle]

Who knows? Why do companies set goals that are within their time and resources? When that goal is hit are they always expected to over-exceed those goals?

No.

Good think customers can always vote with their wallets concerning "reached goals".

 

[DNAbro]

Good think customers can always vote with their wallets concerning "reached goals".

Let's be real. The few people on Neogaf who aren't going to buy a game cause of parity is extremely small. Activision and Bungie will be okay with those few people not buying. But go ahead and vote.

 

[TrueGrime]

Good think customers can always vote with their wallets concerning "reached goals".

Absolutely! That's your right.

Unfortunate that people refuse to enjoy an amazing game because of "parity".

 

[crappybannedjunior999999]

And what do you think a day 1 patch would do for the PS4 version?

I think your concept is right when it comes to specific games, like COD: Ghosts, where they should have released the game at 1080p from release (specially because the game did not look good). But Destiny is a complete different case... they have reached the standards for PS4 here already. The game runs at 1080p with stable frame rate, and it looks good! Talking like this seems that Bungie has not made a good work on the PS4 version, what is untrue! And now that they reached it, they should work on the Xone version, so the other part of their player base can also play a good looking game, with adequate resolution and stable frame rate.

Many things can be improved, anti-aliasing, extra resources for AI, particle effects, the list goes on and on, If there are extra resources in the hardware the onus is on the developer to utilize it. They have the option not to if they like, but they must also be ready to answer the "lacy shit dev" questions if they make that choice. Day one patches will become bigger and bigger. They are already huge. They allow extra weeks of development time after a game goes gold. Also, you are forgetting AC4, it's patch significantly improved the PS4 version visually, not sure if they are others, I don't know that anyone but the Devs know everything these patches do and they certainly are not always forthcoming, console patch notes are shit.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

The Xbox One should be quivering in the shadow of the PS4's magnificence at all times.

Get back to work Bungie you lazy bastards!

 

[Draper]

PS3 quality sub par compared to 360 version = lazy dev. = PS4 version comparable to Xbox 1 version (?)

 

[rokkerkory]

We are still going at this? Man gonna be a long gen if more mp games are close across both consoles just for the lolz

 

[Kssio_Aug]

Many things can be improved, anti-aliasing, extra resources for AI, particle effects, the list goes on and on, If there are extra resources in the hardware the onus is on the developer to utilize it. They have the option not to if they like, but they must also be ready to answer the "lacy shit dev" questions if they make that choice. Day one patches will become bigger and bigger. They are already huge. They allow extra weeks of development time after a game goes gold. Also, you are forgetting AC4, it's patch significantly improved the PS4 version visually, not sure if they are others, I don't know that anyone but the Devs know everything these patches do and they certainly are not always forthcoming, console patch notes are shit.

Extra resource for AI? I'm much more impressed by Destiny AI then Killzone's tbh. And yes, they can improve AA, particle effects and whatever... but with more time and less platforms to work on, they could do it aswell for the Xbox One (not as much as for PS4, but they could). However they're working on a cross-gen title, and for a cross-gen the game is looking much better then I'd expect at first moment, and its not looking bad even in comparison with the console exclusives, specially knowing its cross-gen.

By what I've seen they're the opposite of lazy! A cross-gen game looking that good, running smoothly on both current-gen systems, 1080p at one and targeting the same resolutuion for the other one, with limited time and rosources working for 4 different platforms? Thats what I call a good work, and definitely not a "lazy" job.

And I really believe that they reached their goal for the PS4 version, I can't see them releasing a day 1 patch with better AA treatment or duplicating the frame rate. The game is releasing for PS4 with great quality, stable frame rate and nice IQ.

 

[RandyBobandy]

People don't buy a lot of things for a lot of reasons.

But if people are upset about parity (alleged parity, final game will reveal if both versions are identical), we can discuss why parity is bullshit.

So Bungie aims low.

Is that really so much better than being lazy?

.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

Absolutely! That's your right.

Unfortunate that people refuse to enjoy an amazing game because of "parity".

that can also be said for people who refused to play the actual base game because of "expansion packs and timed exclusives"

 

[kpaadet]

Sure, but you couldn't pay $40 for less of the game to get the rest of it a year later. That is what Bungie is doing with the DLC. Same cost, less content. Do it like everyone else and make the stuff separate packs to pay for.

So you would prefer that you couldnt play Destiny at all until late 2015 instead?

 

[Windom Earle]

Let's be real. The few people on Neogaf who aren't going to buy a game cause of parity is extremely small. Activision and Bungie will be okay with those few people not buying. But go ahead and vote.

Yes, that's why I am saying that the PS4 version will sell the most and deserves the best treatment.

 

[Freshmaker]

I never said the overall gap is gone.

Here's what I'm saying, and excuse the 30 seconds messing with Paint

Still silly as Sony's SDK is not static.

 

[BruiserBear]

Still silly as Sony's SDK is not static.

Not silly according to people who actually know what they're talking about. We heard nothing but praise from developer leaks about the PS4 SDK.

We heard almost exclusively complaints about the XB1 dev kit. Newer leaks, as reported by Digital Foundry, suggest the XB1 SDK has improved greatly in recent months.

So there was more room for improvement on the XB1 side, and it sounds like it's finally where it should have been at launch.

 

[LittleJohnny]

Still silly as Sony's SDK is not static.

Not static, but one was shit and the other wasn't. Early comparisons based on shit drivers were a mistake, capice?

Edit: Beaten.

 

[III-V]

This thread has not delivered.

I see no proof that PS4 could have gone 1080/60, even with XBO achieving 1080/30. Even still, I haven't seen true parity yet, judging by DF analysis anyway. Watching the 900p XBO footage, you can see it is quite blurry. Hard to believe 1-% freed up from kinect and a new SDK was able to catapult it to parity.

Bungie can just as easily give gamers the ability to un-cap frame rate if they thought they were close enough to a solid 60.

I just don't think they have achieved a solid 60, or else they would have beta tested it.

 

[Shaunboy97]

Destiny looks and plays the way it does because of cross gen NOT parity issues!! Come on people, you're smarter than that!! Just look at the difference between cross gen and current gen only games...

 

[Shaunboy97]

This thread has not delivered.

I see no proof that PS4 could have gone 1080/60, even with XBO achieving 1080/30. Even still, I haven't seen true parity yet, judging by DF analysis anyway. Watching the 900p XBO footage, you can see it is quite blurry. Hard to believe 1-% freed up from kinect and a new SDK was able to catapult it to parity.

Bungie can just as easily give gamers the ability to un-cap frame rate if they thought they were close enough to a solid 60.

I just don't think they have achieved a solid 60, or else they would have beta tested it.

Kinect freed up 10% not 1%

 

[crappybannedjunior999999]

Not silly according to people who actually know what they're talking about. We heard nothing but praise from developer leaks about the PS4 SDK.

We heard almost exclusively complaints about the XB1 dev kit. Newer leaks, as reported by Digital Foundry, suggest the XB1 SDK has improved greatly in recent months.

So there was more room for improvement on the XB1 side, and it sounds like it's finally where it should have been at launch.

He's just saying that there is room for improvement on the Sony side also. It's the catching up term that muddies the waters. It implies that, eventually, the Xbox One will be as powerful as the PS4 and that Sony is forever stuck at a certain finite point.

 

[Ardenyal]

Parity sucks :/

 

[BruiserBear]

He's just saying that there is room for improvement on the Sony side also. It's the catching up term that muddies the waters. It implies that, eventually, the Xbox One will be as powerful as the PS4 and that Sony is forever stuck at a certain finite point.

No, it doesn't imply that at all. Some people are just very sensitive about this stuff.

It is entirely accurate to say the XB1 has closed the gap a bit since launch. Going forward things should be stabilized now.

 

[CoG]

Let's see if 10% GPU can deliver 30% more pixels. I think the fact that the beta was not the 1080p code is interesting. I understand there's a long certification process, but considering the importance of this title MS could have greenlit it through for the beta. Something tells me MS didn't want proper comparisons of PS4 vs Xbox One until the game ships.

 

[benny_a]

Let's see if 10% GPU can deliver 30% more pixels. I think the fact that the beta was not the 1080p code is interesting. I understand there's a long certification process, but considering the importance of this title MS could have greenlit it through for the beta. Something tells me MS didn't want proper comparisons of PS4 vs Xbox One until the game ships.

That's just conspiratorial thinking. This build was probably more stable which is important if you want to beta test.

 

[Shaunboy97]

Let's see if 10% GPU can deliver 30% more pixels. I think the fact that the beta was not the 1080p code is interesting. I understand there's a long certification process, but considering the importance of this title MS could have greenlit it through for the beta. Something tells me MS didn't want proper comparisons of PS4 vs Xbox One until the game ships.

They already have the game running at 1080p... The beta is older code and to get the beta to 1080p would take longer... They explained this either in an article or that IGN video.

 

[pixlexic]

Let's see if 10% GPU can deliver 30% more pixels. I think the fact that the beta was not the 1080p code is interesting. I understand there's a long certification process, but considering the importance of this title MS could have greenlit it through for the beta. Something tells me MS didn't want proper comparisons of PS4 vs Xbox One until the game ships.

the big factyor her eis you presuming 1080 isnt normally reached because gpu power.. where it could just be ram constraints in most cases t hat is holding it back.

the new sdk and sans kinect could just be freeing up more ram

 

[Chobel]

the big factyor her eis you presuming 1080 isnt normally reached because gpu power.. where it could just be ram constraints in most cases t hat is holding it back.

the new sdk and sans kinect could just be freeing up more ram

You mean eSRAM, right?

 

[pixlexic]

You mean eSRAM, right?

correct.

 

[DirtyLarry]

While I am not a huge fan of parity from a consumer perspective I do get it from a developer perspective, especially with a game the size and ambition of Destiny.

It simplifies the development process. It really does come down to that. Some view it as lazy on the developers part. Some view it is being practical. Whichever reason it is I am sure Bungie had their reasons, and based on their track record I tend to go with the latter.

I think it is also very easy to forget that prior to this game Bungie was for all intents and purposes exclusively a Microsoft developer. I am sure while they were excited about spreading their wings to other platforms, they were also very reserved about doing so. Especially since the PS3 was notoriously difficult to program for.

Yes, it is very well documented the PS4 has changed things dramatically for the better, but is it not possible Bungie did not even know the specs or development process for the PS4 when they even started development on Destiny? I am asking that sincerely as I do not know, but I do think it is very feasible, as I imagine Destiny has been in development for quite some time.

So really the way I see it, it actually makes perfect sense Bungie as a developer would opt for parity with this game. Their history pretty much reveals all the reasons as to why it was the most pragmatic route for them to take.