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[TheKremlinBossMan]

Gun combat looks pretty amazing, that knife combat looks pretty awful. It was also cool when they revealed that you can play a Jedi.

 

[SeraphJan]

I don't think the game is about competing top of the line visual fidelity, Its about scale, physic, space travel, and memorize every tiny changes you've made across planets

If they could pull off as they promised, this is probably going to be my personal GOAT

 

[Low Moral Fibre]

The game looks good for a Bethesda RPG but nothing special. That still makes it impressive as Bethesda games are always lacking in visual flair but more than make up for it with the worlds they create.

I'm sure this will still be installed on my PC in 2033 - trying not to get hyped up in case it is shit but no-one makes anything close to the kind of RPGs Bethesda make and for all their flaws they all would make my desert island games list (not you FO76).

Definitely hypocritical of me as I slag off better looking games for fun but until someone makes a similar game I'm prepared to assume the position and accept Todd's humongous game.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Not angry at the game at a. or for making this 30fps.

If you had followed my take on this particular thing from that other Phil Spencer thread then you would understand.
What I don't like is that they are gaslighting by saying... `this game could be 60fps but then it won't be this game`. or Phil saying `locking to 30fps was a creative choice not a hardware choice`... well duh.. of course it was a creative choice dictated by the hardware they were working on.

I am not saying that they should make this 60fps... or expect them to. Just have an issue when people say some stupid shit as if the rest of us is stupid.

If this game is running at anything on the XSX vs whatever it is running on the XSS... the only reason you cannot double the framerate on the XSX... is if you are CPU limited to begin with. Being CPU-limited levels the playing feild between the two consoles. And I said as much in that thread where Phil was saying that nonsense about creative choices.

I'm still a bit confused I think...so if the game could be 60 fps...why wouldn't they do it? Surely something that they want to be in the game or working the way it is, is causing the fps to drop so they are limiting it to 30fps?

So they would need to change their vision to get it to 60fps...make some cuts or reduction in effects etc that they don't want to make?

 

[Three]

I can't cope with the fact that even in this forum, with a lot of enthusiastic ppl about games, most of the users can't realise that what the creation engine does is never been done by engine else.

What?

Every single object will stay in the same spot where you left it, a table, the ground, someone else head, every single item has data stored and this data need to be streamed to the cpu and get placed every time you get closer to a location.

This type of behaviour is really, really taxing and takes away a lot of power from the cpu (not the gpu). It is also the major strong point of Bethesda rpgs.

Now imagine doing that for alla that space, I can see the save games become huge and the performance tank over time. Maybe you will manage a 60 fps the first 20 hours, but then it is going to be hard and no resolution will save it.

The CPU shouldn't be getting taxed by that. The engine is just not doing it well if that's the actual problem. You have games with huge persistent worlds already. It would more likely to be a data streaming limit than a CPU one if that were the case. This is Bethesda though and their CPU optimisation for game scripts is probably poor like all their previous games and not down to object persistence.

People in the past assumed that as game save increased Skyrim began to run like crap at 15fps because they placed some cheesewheel in their house but it was poor script management for quests meaning they were tracking some dragon flying about on the other side of the map that the player wasn't interacting with at all. Bethesda have never had good performance in their games whether that's fallout 4, fallout 76, skyrim, or now this. It's not because this is some game that's doing something nobody has ever done before though.

 

[Fess]

Wow didn’t think they would praise it this much. It’s going to he such an insane game to jump into, I’ll be there day 1, or at the ”5 days early” point haven’t decided yet.

 

[thief183]

What?

The CPU shouldn't be getting taxed by that. The engine is just not doing it well if that's the actual problem. You have games with huge persistent worlds already. It would more likely to be a data streaming limit than a CPU one if that were the case. This is Bethesda though and their CPU optimisation for game scripts is probably poor like all their previous games and not down to object persistence.

People in the past assumed that as game save increased Skyrim began to run like crap at 15fps because they placed some cheesewheel in their house but it was poor script management for quests meaning they were tracking some dragon flying about on the other side of the map that the player wasn't interacting with at all. Bethesda have never had good performance in their games whether that's fallout 4, fallout 76, skyrim, or now this. It's not because this is some game that's doing something nobody has ever done before though.

Pls, tell me a game where you can move any single item in the world, wherever you want and it will stay there forever. Every single item in every single shelve can be moved a cm and it will stay there. If you give me a name... I'll buy it

 

[DeepEnigma]

Wow didn’t think they would praise it this much.

 

[adamsapple]

Gun combat looks pretty amazing, that knife combat looks pretty awful. It was also cool when they revealed that you can play a Jedi.

Yes, of all the things, I appreciate that the combat looks functional. Not like the crap it looked and felt like in Fallout 3/4 without VATS.

 

[Thirty7ven]

I’m curious about the physics talk because I don’t see how the game is doing much of it. BUT I’ve only seen the developer video once tbf. That said I don’t remember seeing complex physics based destruction, fluids, or cloth physics.

Are talking about them changing the gravity parameters?

 

[sendit]

Wow didn’t think they would praise it this much. It’s going to he such an insane game to jump into, I’ll be there day 1, or at the ”5 days early” point haven’t decided yet.

It's a mainline Bethesda game that is firing on all cylinders. It was given it's own 1 hour showcase. Todd Howard.

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

well, there you go. Thats why you are not getting a 60 fps patch. 1296p is only 3 million pixels. Half of that would be 1.5 million or around 900p assuming no further CPU bottlenecks.

TBH, this is a good thing. It means they pushed boundries and the game might not be poorly optimized CPU bound like we originally thought. Its just using the gpu to push visual fidelity.

Gamers should be celebrating this. And if you cant stand it, just buy a PC.

When it comes to PC and runs a 1080p60 on a 6600XT maybe people will understand why we complain. I'm not celebrating a 30fps game with that level of visuals. Matrix demo was amazing and it is 30fps with drops. I believe rock solid 30fps with proper frame pacing is achievable with tuning of the visuals and scope.

If 30fps becomes the norm for current gen games, it's time to jump ship back to PC. I still think 60fps are here to stay.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I'm still a bit confused I think...so if the game could be 60 fps...why wouldn't they do it? Surely something that they want to be in the game or working the way it is, is causing the fps to drop so they are limiting it to 30fps?

So they would need to change their vision to get it to 60fps...make some cuts or reduction in effects etc that they don't want to make?

You do realize we are saying the same thing....

anyways...congrats.Now you see what I mean by they have gaslighted us.

The hardware...won't allow them to make this game at 60fps. If they insist on making it 60fps, they would be compromising their vision for the game so much so that as they put it themselves, it won't be the same game anymore.

That all there's to it. So all that talk they are saying about not limited by the hardware..or game coan be 60fps but wont be the same game...is just nonsense.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

While its hard to believe that will always be the case when we have Sony's first party doing native 4K@30/40fps and reconstructed 4K@60fps... I have no qualms with reconstructed 4K@30fps as long as they give us a similarly reconstructed 60fps performance mode.

I can understand that that may not always be the case, but will expect to see it more times than not.

When Sony releases a game on the scale and complexity of a Bethesda RPG, then you can make a proper comparison. The closest thing they have is Horizon Forbidden West, which while extremely pretty, has the "complexity" of your average Assassin's Creed or Far Cry title.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I'm still a bit confused I think...so if the game could be 60 fps...why wouldn't they do it?

Because it’s extra work and they don’t have the time

 

[Salty Popsicle]

So now a resolution of only 1296p and 30 frames stable? It's acceptable and it's fine on next gen consoles...OK, good to know for the future.

If it's not a linear action/adventure title like God of War or Uncharted, then yes, it's acceptable.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

When Sony releases a game on the scale and complexity of a Bethesda RPG, then you can make a proper comparison. The closest thing they have is Horizon Forbidden West, which while extremely pretty, has the "complexity" of your average Assassin's Creed or Far Cry title.

What complexity are you talking about with Starfield?

It’s not like the game is doing anything significant from an AI standpoint, there’s no destructability or complex physics.

There’s nothing Starfield is doing, from an engine complexity standpoint, that hasn’t already been done countless times LAST generation

 

[SlimySnake]

When it comes to PC and runs a 1080p60 on a 6600XT maybe people will understand why we complain. I'm not celebrating a 30fps game with that level of visuals. Matrix demo was amazing and it is 30fps with drops. I believe rock solid 30fps with proper frame pacing is achievable with tuning of the visuals and scope.

If 30fps becomes the norm for current gen games, it's time to jump ship back to PC. I still think 60fps are here to stay.

yaeh but matrix didnt run at 60 fps on my 2080. i actually upgraded to a 3080 and it topped out at 40-45 fps. it was the same CPU bound demo that was on consoles.

star wars is also CPU bound and no matter what i tried i couldnt get it to run at 60 fps because it kept dropping frames whenever the game became CPU bound which was basically every time i went to koboh.

My CPU is a fairly decent 5.0 ghz CPU too. With the XSX already dropping to 1296p, i wouldnt be surprised if the game is also GPU bound.

 

[sendit]

I'm still a bit confused I think...so if the game could be 60 fps...why wouldn't they do it? Surely something that they want to be in the game or working the way it is, is causing the fps to drop so they are limiting it to 30fps?

So they would need to change their vision to get it to 60fps...make some cuts or reduction in effects etc that they don't want to make?

It's not 60 because given the Series S and Series X hardware capabilities, it limited their creative vision (graphical output) at 60. 30 is a compromise.

Optimization at a high-level, is toggling visual fidelity and optimizing code to a degree.

 

[Neo_game]

I knew this would not be native 4K. I think for big gfx jump devs would be targetting 1440P 30fps and 1080P 60fps. Pretty sure R5 3600 will run this game at 60fps as well. I will not be suprised in future if they release 120hz mode, 40fps or even 60fps. They were not going to delay the game another year for this so they settled with 30fps.

 

[hemo memo]

I'm still a bit confused I think...so if the game could be 60 fps...why wouldn't they do it? Surely something that they want to be in the game or working the way it is, is causing the fps to drop so they are limiting it to 30fps?

So they would need to change their vision to get it to 60fps...make some cuts or reduction in effects etc that they don't want to make?

Cost.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

It did, but got even more just because Gotham Knights came around the same time and people panicked around 30 fps becoming standard again for next gen only games.

Actually, that specific game is the reason why I rather upgraded my PC GPU instead of moving to consoles. I got a nice deal for a similar GPU (well, a little more powerful one) for $400 right after the crypto fiasco ended so couldn't pass on it. A Plague Tale Requiem finally got a 60 fps patch on consoles but compromises are several more than on my PC, where I played it on High 1440p at around 60-70 fps.

People shit on Gotham Knights for multiple reasons, the most prominent reason being that Arkham Knight which released 8 years ago on previous gen hardware looks markedly better in many aspects.

 

[Fess]

It's a mainline Bethesda game that is firing on all cylinders. It was given it's own 1 hour showcase. Todd Howard.

Yeah but it’s DF, they can be super cranky, especially with low framerates, and they did focus on the console version here instead of just telling people complaining to play on PC.

 

[NomenNescio]

- DF fully expects 30 FPS to become the common target going forward as the cross-gen period ends.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

What complexity are you talking about with Starfield?

It’s not like the game is doing anything significant from an AI standpoint, there’s no destructability or complex physics.

There’s nothing Starfield is doing, from an engine complexity standpoint, that hasn’t already been done countless times LAST generation

Almost every object in the game has its own physical properties and can be manipulated/moved and remain saved in the game world almost indefinitely. The only other games I know that do this are...surprise, surprise...previous Bethesda RPGs.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Almost every object in the game has its own physical properties and can be manipulated/moved and remain saved in the game world almost indefinitely. The only other games I know that do this are...surprise, surprise...previous Bethesda RPGs.

Yes,

Peoples are underestimating "persistence" of objects and complexity of it in engines. Star Citizen is experiencing the complexity of it right now with server wide persistence and it's a challenge to implement, it even broke the server on first iteration. Bethesda wouldn't transfer well to say unreal engine, they would rewrite so much to include these kind of details.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Almost every object in the game has its own physical properties and can be manipulated/moved and remain saved in the game world almost indefinitely. The only other games I know that do this are...surprise, surprise...previous Bethesda RPGs.

And if that is true its a poor compromise because this adds almost nothing to the game

There’s a reason that all the best engines don’t allow you to stack a thousand sandwiches in the world, because it’s pointless baggage

 

[Luipadre]

Wow didn’t think they would praise it this much. It’s going to he such an insane game to jump into, I’ll be there day 1, or at the ”5 days early” point haven’t decided yet.

Well i share their opinion about the "this is bethesda's best looking game" part. Their games were never a gfx powerhouse, but this one looks really good tech wise and gameplay wise too. Definitely the best looking gunplay they've ever done

 

[MikeM]

So it' upscaled 4k and not native.

I don’t even run 4k native on my 7900xt where upscaling is possible.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

And if that is true its a poor compromise because this adds almost nothing to the game

There’s a reason that all the best engines don’t allow you to stack a thousand sandwiches in the world, because it’s pointless baggage

There's also a reason those other "best" engines have never produced an RPG with the lifespan and success of Elder Scrolls or Fallout. People enjoy these features even if it may seem trivial or inconsequential to outsiders.

 

[BrutalTruth_]

Almost every object in the game has its own physical properties and can be manipulated/moved and remain saved in the game world almost indefinitely. The only other games I know that do this are...surprise, surprise...previous Bethesda RPGs.

I'm shocked people don't know this lol

 

[Helghan]

Do they mention anything about the RTGI bug/oddity?



Paging adamsapple , you are needed to the DF ER, STAT!

Multiple Suns, one you don’t see? Just guessing

 

[Salty Popsicle]

I'm shocked people don't know this lol

You can tell someone has never played a Bethesda RPG before when they start analyzing the Creation Engine purely by visual features LMAO..

 

[GHG]

The hardware...won't allow them to make this game at 60fps. If they insist on making it 60fps, they would be compromising their vision for the game so much so that as they put it themselves, it won't be the same game anymore.

Yeh that's the reality of it. With consoles there's always a compromise in some way. Either the framerate takes a hit, or the visuals do. In this case it's the framerate.

All Phil had to say is that they had to make decisions/compromises based on the current console hardware available to them, the end. But then thats possibly too honest and we all know he doesn't like to do that.

 

[Three]

Pls, tell me a game where you can move any single item in the world, wherever you want and it will stay there forever. Every single item in every single shelve can be moved a cm and it will stay there. If you give me a name... I'll buy it

Depends what you mean by "any single item", how many you have and the world size. Dead bodies? Power up items? Some things will likely disappear in Starfield too. I'm only referring to persistent worlds and what's required for tracking objects in them and pointing out it's not the CPU that would be an issue there. You have example games like Star citizen, Ark, even minecraft that have persistent worlds. Minecraft has some advantages in terms of accuracy required but it's still a world with 30 Million blocks and countless block types.

With loading screens this becomes even less of an issue for starfield in comparison to something like Star Citizen because you can limit the objects to the planet and have however amount of time that's required to load positions on the given planet size. Persistent worlds with player placed objects is something other engines have done and some have even done it more seamlessly than Starfield.

 

[Spyxos]

I don't know why people keep thinking console users are going to tolerate 30 fps. Every game that has released with just 30 fps get shit on relentlessly. These people are going to learn one way or another.

People have been saying here for a long time that 30 fps will become standard on consoles once crossgen is over. That you don't believe it and hope for some miracle. Is your own problem.

 

[clarky]

And if that is true its a poor compromise because this adds almost nothing to the game

There’s a reason that all the best engines don’t allow you to stack a thousand sandwiches in the world, because it’s pointless baggage

Not really. Item persistence adds a lot to the immersion in an Bethesda RPG. For example a battle that I was involved in a while ago might still have blood on the walls or floors with old guns still lying about. Stuff ive stole and used to decorate my ship or cargo that i had to ditch on a moon will still be there whenever i go back. The sandwich thing is just a demo of what the game can handle.

If that stuff doesn't float your boat then fair enough.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Almost every object in the game has its own physical properties and can be manipulated/moved and remain saved in the game world almost indefinitely. The only other games I know that do this are...surprise, surprise...previous Bethesda RPGs.

But that was the case in a 30fps title running on PS3. That cant be "it".

 

[hemo memo]

Almost every object in the game has its own physical properties and can be manipulated/moved and remain saved in the game world almost indefinitely. The only other games I know that do this are...surprise, surprise...previous Bethesda RPGs.

Which is great recipe for a festival of glitches.

 

[darrylgorn]

Xbox Series X was designed to nominally render games in 2160p (4K resolution) at 60 frames per second (FPS).

Xbox Series X and Series S - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GHG]

Not really. Item persistence adds a lot to the immersion in an Bethesda RPG. For example a battle that I was involved in a while ago might still have blood on the walls or floors with old guns still lying about. Stuff ive stole and used to decorate my ship or cargo that i had to ditch on a moon will still be there whenever i go back. The sandwich thing is just a demo of what the game can handle.

If that stuff doesn't float your boat then fair enough.

fDecalLifeTime is a thing. Those things aren't going to exist any longer than whatever you have that parameter set to, by default (and on consoles) it's not very long.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

But that was the case in a 30fps title running on PS3. That cant be "it".

Creation Engine is one of the most CPU intensive game engines out there. Every feature set of the engine has been overhauled, new features added, while keeping the core intact. That makes 30fps on current-gen hardware completely believable.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

There's also a reason those other "best" engines have never produced an RPG with the lifespan and success of Elder Scrolls or Fallout. People enjoy these features even if it may seem trivial or inconsequential to outsiders.

That’s not true. We have countless open world games that are similarly or more successful

And I don’t think stacking crap in the world and limiting the performance is why those games are successful to begin with

 

[thief183]

Depends what you mean by "any single item", how many you have and the world size. Dead bodies? Power up items? Some things will likely disappear in Starfield too. I'm only referring to persistent worlds and what's required for tracking objects in them and pointing out it's not the CPU that would be an issue there. You have example games like Star citizen, Ark, even minecraft that have persistent worlds. Minecraft has some advantages in terms of accuracy required but it's still a world with 30 Million blocks and countless block types.

With loading screens this becomes even less of an issue for starfield in comparison to something like Star Citizen because you can limit the objects to the planet and have however amount of time that's required to load positions on the given planet size. Persistent worlds with player placed objects is something other engines have done and some have even done it more seamlessly than Starfield.

With any single item I mean everything, for example you can take a potion and drop it in the ground, it will be affected by physics and where it lands (roll or whatever) will stay forever.

For the example you said, star citizen is impressive but items are a just a string in the menu. Never tried Ark so not gonna comment on it, in Minecraft the items you drop in the world will stay there for more or less 2 minutes, you can manage to not male them despawn by leaving the game chunk, but as soon as you get there again the despawn counter will restart. Also the item you drop are not effected by physics.

 

[clarky]

fDecalLifeTime is a thing. Those things aren't going to exist any longer than whatever you have that parameter set to, by default (and on consoles) it's not very long.

Unknown until we play the game. I'm just speculating.

Edit: Pretty sure I could ditch loads of stuff in a house in Skyrim and it would all still be the next time I fired the game up. I might be wrong its been a very long time since i played that game.

 

[Salty Popsicle]

That’s not true. We have countless open world games that are similarly or more successful

And I don’t think stacking crap in the world and limiting the performance is why those games are successful to begin with

I didn't say open-world, I said RPG. There is a big difference.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I didn't say open-world, I said RPG. There is a big difference.

There’s no difference these days. What makes a Bethesda game any more of an RPG than GTA or RDR2?

Both games involve role playing. If you’re going to limit the definition of RPG to the style Bethesda makes, well you’re left with only a small few devs that even dabble in that specific genre anymore

 

[Pelta88]

 

[Gaiff]

That’s not true. We have countless open world games that are similarly or more successful

And I don’t think stacking crap in the world and limiting the performance is why those games are successful to begin with

Countless open world games more successful than TES? You can practically count those on one hand.

 

[JackMcGunns]

Visually it's more impressive than I thought, looks great imo, nothing to complain about.