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[Haly]

How can I get into the guild? I left a message in the chat on the group just to be safe, but no one is on

You have to be in game.

Join the Neogaf chat channel (plus button near upper right), and then leave a message. I'l send you an invite when I see it.

 

[Archie]

Dendi is playing Mortal Kombat instead of Dota.

ded gaem

 

[The Technomancer]

Ironically heroes that need counterpicking are the most overpowered in All Pick because of the lack of turns or enforcement of the time limit

 

[JakOfTheShadows]

Dendi is playing Mortal Kombat instead of Dota.

ded gaem

#roadtoevo2014

 

[lmpaler]

You have to be in game.

Join the Neogaf chat channel (plus button near upper right), and then leave a message. I'l send you an invite when I see it.

Done

 

[Haly]

After conquering the doto world, Dendi has moved on to fightmans.

 

[The Technomancer]

In other news, Slark mid against TA is really fucking good

 

[JustinBB7]

Just had a game where our Gyro went aghs, I was like why...

Our Drow said for gold and health.

 

[Technosteve]

Just had a game where our Gyro went aghs, I was like why...

Our Drow said for gold and health.

aghs gyro is next level stuff

 

[Artanisix]

because it's fun

 

[shira]

Just had a game where our Gyro went aghs, I was like why...

Our Drow said for gold and health.

whut? It's like gyro sunstrike.

 

[Schweinehund]

I should study some people that have absurd win rates while solo queuing. Some of these games seem impossible to win, no matter how farmed you get.

 

[Shorty11857]

Just had a game where our Gyro went aghs, I was like why...

Our Drow said for gold and health.

I had a game where Gyro went Aghs, it took him 40 minutes to get and he spent the entire game bitching at the team

 

[Anbokr]

I know people say the game is balanced around top end play but that doesn't explain why they added a casting time to fury swipes, warlock is obviously a very strong pub hero. Changing fatal bonds to magic damage would probably be enough, making pipe a viable option against warlock.

Actually, it does. Earthshock was almost impossible to get off because of it's small radius and .5s cast time (which is crazy for a melee, close to Naga's abysmal cast time). The reduction to a .3s cast time was a big buff to earthshock, but Icefrog put overpower on the cast time to somewhat off-set the buff. Ursa was in a good place at the time, it's just one of his skills (earthshock) needed adjusting. I'd say Ursa is just as strong if not stronger (just from me anecdotally) because of the ability to easily get off that earthshock now--if you're able to slow them the cast animation on overpower is so fast that it doesn't really matter in the long run. And look where we are now--Ursa is a competitively viable hero when he wasn't for years. Also Spiritbreaker received that insane greater bash buff while he was already at something like 56% win, and Zeus continues to get minor buffs here and there despite being at close to 60% win now; 98.9% of the changes in dota are made in response to competitive. There are always exceptions of course.

Maybe get a bkb against the warlock? Nullifies most of the damage coming from the golems. Also, in my experience, yeah a farmed warlock is a bitch, but it's just like a Mag with a blink + refresher imo. It takes awhile for him to get there because he doesn't farm/lane that well (in Mag's case he actually farms much more quickly, and a warlock farming means someone else is getting less farm), and by the time he does pickup those big items, my carry should honestly have all of his core and 1-2 luxury items so, yeah...

 

[Nokterian]

Oh wow the peak went to 501,968 people playing Dota 2. That is a new record,new hights,new possibilities!

 

[BeBen]

Oh wow the peak went to 501,968 people playing Dota 2. That is a new record,new hights,new possibilities!

ded gaem

 

[Green Biker Dude]

spirit breaker is definitely broken currently. heroes like drow ranger, sniper, huskar, viper and spirit breaker can never be very good because they're too easy to play with. if they're good picks in competitive games, then they're just gonna stomp regular matches.

it's the reason heroes like batrider, dark seer, wisp and chen have remained top picks for a good while now. as long as the best heroes require a lot of michael or aren't right clickers than can just scale super hard once they stomp a lane the game can remain balanced for competitive and casual play. it's also the reason zeus isn't that big of a problem -- if he goes for an aghs refresher rush, he can be focused. if he gets utiity items like merlini does with force staff, ghost scepter, travels and whatnot, you can't just double ult and kill everything

the thing about spirit breaker right now is that he's one of the reliable huskar counters, and huskar is much more broken than any other hero. so they need to fix huskar before they fix lifestealer and spirit breaker

balacing the game around "top players" only is stupid and should be considered a thing of the past. there are 500k concurrent people playing it. you're not gonna make 400k people mad to please a couple of snobs. valve would be basically wiping their asses with money if they did that

 

[Anbokr]

balacing the game around "top players" only is stupid and should be considered a thing of the past. there are 500k concurrent people playing it. you're not gonna make 400k people mad to please a couple of snobs. valve would be basically wiping their asses with money if they did that

You have to choose your primary area of balance or you often end up with a mess (aka blizzard WoW balancing). Balancing for the top end usually trickles down to the low end. It's much easier to balance around what you CAN do, than around what your average pub does. If Icefrog balanced around the low end, then apparantly we need to buff QoP, Chen, Lone Druid, antimage, morphling, shadow demon, and wisp some more. Riki is the biggest pubstomper ever known to man in the trenches, do we need to nerf him? Fuck those elitist snobs and their buying dust and shit.

It's not by any means "a thing of the past," and I'm pleased with Icefrog's balancing around the highest level of play, and I hope he continues with that philosophy. Of course there are exceptions here and there (notably the PL nerf), but the majority of changes revolve around competitive dota and it makes for a much better game. I mean I want to say what's broken in competitive is broken in pub dota, but I can only say that for the highest level of pub dota. If icefrog didn't balance around competitive and balanced around the average pub, we'd have to go by the logic that you stated, "Well, Lone Druid is kind of super hard to play for your average player and so he loses a shit ton, more than he ideally should (50%), needs to be dumbed down and made easier or buffed to the point where he can win more often in pubs." The competitive balance would be: "Lone Druid is a monster in the right hands, is picked nearly every game and has been for two years, let's hit him with a slight nerf"--result: 300g bounty on Spirit Bear and an LD that is viable, but not over the top--even in the right hands. Tell me honestly, which would you prefer?

We're slowly getting to a point where close to the entire hero pool is competitively viable, and nearly every hero has clear cut counters. AP and pubs are by nature imbalanced, it's hard to balance around such a wide range of skill levels and an inherently broken mode--dota has always been a game of counters where picks and bans are as much a part of the game as the gameplay itself, and in pub AP you usually can't account for that.

 

[The Technomancer]

You know what I want? A mix between Captains Mode and Random Draft. Everyone is still picking their own heroes in alternate timed turns, but you have the entire pool accessible and each person also gets a single ban.

Basically I need something I can play when I don't have a 5-stack for Captains Mode

 

[Monochromaticx]

Just had a game where our Gyro went aghs, I was like why...

Our Drow said for gold and health.

On carry gyro...that sucks but isn't Aghs Support Gyro legit? I think I remember Ars-Arts using that build.

Anyway, I tried Abaddon support in single draft today. One word: AMAZING!.


Then we threw the game and lost

 

[Green Biker Dude]

You have to choose your primary area of balance or you often end up with a mess (aka blizzard WoW balancing). Balancing for the top end usually trickles down to the low end. It's much easier to balance around what you CAN do, than around what your average pub does. If Icefrog balanced around the low end, then apparantly we need to buff QoP, Chen, Lone Druid, antimage, morphling, shadow demon, and wisp some more. Riki is the biggest pubstomper ever known to man in the trenches, do we need to nerf him? Fuck those elitist snobs and their buying dust and shit.

It's not by any means "a thing of the past," and I'm pleased with Icefrog's balancing around the highest level of play, and I hope he continues with that philosophy. Of course there are exceptions here and there (notably the PL nerf), but the majority of changes revolve around competitive dota and it makes for a much better game. I mean I want to say what's broken in competitive is broken in pub dota, but I can only say that for the highest level of pub dota. If icefrog didn't balance around competitive and balanced around the average pub, we'd have to go by the logic that you stated, "Well, Lone Druid is kind of super hard to play for your average player and so he loses a shit ton, more than he ideally should (50%), needs to be dumbed down and made easier or buffed to the point where he can win more often in pubs." The competitive balance would be: "Lone Druid is a monster in the right hands, is picked nearly every game and has been for two years, let's hit him with a slight nerf"--result: 300g bounty on Spirit Bear and an LD that is viable, but not over the top--even in the right hands. Tell me honestly, which would you prefer?

We're slowly getting to a point where close to the entire hero pool is competitively viable, and nearly every hero has clear cut counters. AP and pubs are by nature imbalanced, it's hard to balance around such a wide range of skill levels and an inherently broken mode--dota has always been a game of counters where picks and bans are as much a part of the game as the gameplay itself, and in pub AP you usually can't account for that.

well you say you're fine with the direction they've taken lately and i'm not really complaining about it so i don't see it as a disagreement. as long as the best heroes aren't shit like drow ranger and sniper, the game should be balanced

but this attitude that "no the hero is fine you're just bad" or "just ward and gank his jungle" is what i find unreasonable. it's true some people complain without having any idea how to just deal with certain heroes, but at the same time some heroes are just broken

 

[ksan]

too bad most dota players dont understand this and complain instead

 

[Tobe]

well you say you're fine with the direction they've taken lately and i'm not really complaining about it so i don't see it as a disagreement. as long as the best heroes aren't shit like drow ranger and sniper, the game should be balanced

but this attitude that "no the hero is fine you're just bad" or "just ward and gank his jungle" is what i find unreasonable. it's true some people complain without having any idea how to just deal with certain heroes, but at the same time some heroes are just broken

sb aint broken he just excels at 1v1s support rotation with tp scrolls map awareness. renders him a average hero. i think you are focusing too much on the singular aspect of a team game.

 

[PillowKnight]

well you say you're fine with the direction they've taken lately and i'm not really complaining about it so i don't see it as a disagreement. as long as the best heroes aren't shit like drow ranger and sniper, the game should be balanced

but this attitude that "no the hero is fine you're just bad" or "just ward and gank his jungle" is what i find unreasonable. it's true some people complain without having any idea how to just deal with certain heroes, but at the same time some heroes are just broken

You leave sniper alone, he got some good buffs and isn't shit hero anymore.

 

[KingKong]

I dont think Spirit Breaker is broken or OP or anything (58% win rate is pretty absurd though) but I'm so fucking sick of seeing him in every single game

 

[Tobe]

I dont think Spirit Breaker is broken or OP or anything (58% win rate is pretty absurd though) but I'm so fucking sick of seeing him in every single game

havent seen the space cow for a good 40 something games i think

 

[Green Biker Dude]

i see "just kill him" is the new "gank his jungle"

this is like people saying lycan was fine before he was nerfed and then everyone admiting after he was broken. hurr durr

this attitude of things not being broken until they're shown to be in professional games is exactly one of the problems with the balancing, or at least the balace discussions in this game. it's like people can't think for themselves

 

[Anbokr]

well you say you're fine with the direction they've taken lately and i'm not really complaining about it so i don't see it as a disagreement. as long as the best heroes aren't shit like drow ranger and sniper, the game should be balanced

but this attitude that "no the hero is fine you're just bad" or "just ward and gank his jungle" is what i find unreasonable. it's true some people complain without having any idea how to just deal with certain heroes, but at the same time some heroes are just broken

Lycan is a funny case, because you had random forumites (and even some pubs akin to the current reddit mob) claiming that lycan was fine and counterable (not pros); yeah sure, maybe you could counter him a tad, but in most games he is going to roflstomp you and was just too much to deal with in both comp. and pubs. Gets the nerfbat. Also, there's a key difference between explaining how to beat a hero and a separate discussion on the broknness of said hero. I'm sure many peeps came in exclaiming, "zomg lycan so broke how do I deal with him," and of course the reply is "just gank and ward the jungle." I mean, that is how you dealt with old lycan, doesn't mean the hero isn't too difficult to deal with or too strong--but that was the only advice you could give someone.

Then you have people that clamor for nerfs on the trench hard carry of the month--let's take PL for example. A hero that was pretty strong, but had clear counters. Wasn't picked that often in CM and had something like 48% win when picked. Pubs whined, icefrog gave him a moderate nerf. Now he drops to rarely picked with maybe 43% win (last I checked on dota academy). He's also given many indirect counters with the dust buff and ES buff. Pubs still whine, "zomg de pros say liek dis hero iz ez 2 counter but dis bullshit idc fkn elitists f dis game plz nerf icefraud any1 and thier mother win wit cancer."

So in short, I agree with what you're saying, but on a case by case basis. CM will almost always expose those heroes that are insanely difficult to counter or keep down, because heroes that are like that will immediately rise to the top precisely because CM is all about counters (dota to a large extent is 50% a game of counters)! If you have a perma first banned heroes (over a long period of time) rather than situational first bans, you know something is wrong. It will show who's broken (see old lycan and current wisp). The opposite case is true as well... like in the case of PL.

 

[ksan]

i see "just kill him" is the new "gank his jungle"

this is like people saying lycan was fine before he was nerfed and then everyone admiting after he was broken. hurr durr

this attitude of things not being broken until they're shown to be in professional games is exactly one of the problems with the balancing, or at least the balace discussions in this game. it's like people can't think for themselves

i dont think you understand what youre talking about

 

[Green Biker Dude]

yeah that's a great argument

 

[The Technomancer]

The problem as I see it is that the way to deal with a lot of annoying heroes often involves counterpicking (either specifically, a la "just get a Bane to deal with Lifestealer", or in general, as in "get some high burst damage gankers for Sniper") but counterpicking is really only feasible in two of the main modes. Like this morning when some other guys and I hopped in the All Pick queue and built our team not expecting at all that 15 seconds before the horn blew the enemy would last pick a Phantom Lancer, thus rendering our strategy oriented towards the lategame really difficult.

 

[ksan]

yeah that's a great argument

its hard to argue when you have a hindsight bias about lycan is his prime, most people didn't say that he was "fine"

 

[Cellbomber]

You shouldn't be allowed to pick once the clock hits zero. That is a huge problem especially in AP.

 

[Green Biker Dude]

ksan pls now you're shifting the focus from the argument itself to me

tl;dr dota people can't argue hero balance, resort to ad hominems

i'm out

 

[ksan]

okay?

 

[Archie]

Windrunner needs a buff icefraud plz

 

[lmpaler]

Windrunner needs a buff icefraud plz

What? Why?

 

[Label]

You shouldn't be allowed to pick once the clock hits zero. That is a huge problem especially in AP.

I have always thought it should just random you a hero if you do not pick in time.

 

[Schweinehund]

I'd prefer Hon's ranked solo where you could sit on picks but it would force it at 0:00.

 

[Tobe]

Windrunner needs a buff icefraud plz

imagine if you could bend the arrow at will at a certain range.

 

[Anbokr]

The problem as I see it is that the way to deal with a lot of annoying heroes often involves counterpicking (either specifically, a la "just get a Bane to deal with Lifestealer", or in general, as in "get some high burst damage gankers for Sniper") but counterpicking is really only feasible in two of the main modes. Like this morning when some other guys and I hopped in the All Pick queue and built our team not expecting at all that 15 seconds before the horn blew the enemy would last pick a Phantom Lancer, thus rendering our strategy oriented towards the lategame really difficult.

And that's why the game isn't balanced around AP, aka "pubs". Also AP is the king of counterpicking mode because you don't have any bans. You can wait till the last second to pick your team and have a significant advantage--that is counterpicking.

 

[aeolist]

What? Why?

i can't win with her at all

always out of mana and damage is too low

 

[BeBen]

So yeah, i just won a 2v3

How was your day?

 

[KingKong]

change Windrunners ult to make Wind Run last longer and let her fly over terrain like firefly

 

[JustinBB7]

On carry gyro...that sucks but isn't Aghs Support Gyro legit? I think I remember Ars-Arts using that build.

Anyway, I tried Abaddon support in single draft today. One word: AMAZING!.


Then we threw the game and lost

It's not worth 4200 gold on either carry/support Gyro. Carry needs damage items, support needs support items.. not a useless global ult that people sidestep anyway.

 

[The Technomancer]

And that's why the game isn't balanced around AP, aka "pubs". Also AP is the king of counterpicking mode because you don't have any bans. You can wait till the last second to pick your team and have a significant advantage--that is counterpicking.

Sure, but I think that's broken, and leads to the current situation where half the players in AP are just waiting for the other team to blink.

 

[lmpaler]

i can't win with her at all

always out of mana and damage is too low

I guess I will have to play her more lol. I have always just stolen her arrow when I play Rubick

 

[Anbokr]

Sure, but I think that's broken, and leads to the current situation where half the players in AP are just waiting for the other team to blink.

well, yeah, it is, that's what i said xD. AP by nature is broken, that's just the mode. It's a for fun mode (some don't find it fun) where you can do whatever the fuck you want--random for extra gold, practice a specific hero, be nerdy and coordinate picks, try out troll teams. It's a YOLO, man mode of do whatever.

 

[1.09]

Sure, but I think that's broken, and leads to the current situation where half the players in AP are just waiting for the other team to blink.

he literally just admitted to AP not being balanced. And quite frankly, unless they're playing competitive, there shouldn't be any reason why people are complaining about hero balance. Its pubs, its a game, ur not losing or winning any money because of the outcome of your game.

And legit weaver is disgusting strong and visage pickers are the worst kind of people in AP. Iunno what u guys are complaining about.

 

[Technosteve]

Lycan's nerf was purely to his wolves and his ability to jungle and farm efficiently. It was a clever nerf.

Naga siren on the other hand got destroyed