Sigismundo
Member
That and I'm not playing the same region twice in a row, yes. That helps with tediousness.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Dota 2 |OT13| 6.86, our Pit Lord and savior
- Thread starter Hylian7
- Start date
- Status
Going off of my previous post, this is kind of a soapbox I got on in my head here.
When I went to TI5 last year, it was so awesome seeing so many diverse people in one place to watch Dota. There were people from countries all over the world there. I'm sure you all remember that interview Kaci did with that father and his daughter (<10 years old) dressed as Crystal Maiden. It just shows you how far the fanbase for Dota reaches. I saw another father with his kids that looked to be about 5 or 6, dressed up as Anti-Mage and Crystal Maiden. There were a lot more women there than you might think. In a way, it was almost like a live version of that Pokemon Super Bowl commercial (but for Dota of course), this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F46tGehnfo
Like I mentioned before, Valve's implemented features to get around language barriers do something unprecedented and allow people from all over the world to play together, and still be able to communicate effectively. Other games like LoL or StarCraft have a region lock as their answer. I think that's something truly impressive that just goes completely unnoticed about Dota, and at the same time, that's not really a bad thing. The fact that you just communicate with teammates that speak an entirely different language without even thinking about it is exactly what they want.
Dota has a ton of diversity in it, but many groups remain silent due to being ostracized by the community. If the community was a more welcoming place, rather than pushing people away because of perceived differences (gender, race, nationality, etc.), I guarantee you Dota would be a much better game overall for it.
I've seen variants of the n-word thrown around in an insulting manner, whether the target was actually black or not. If I had a dime for every racial slur for hispanic players I heard in game, I could retire right now.
When I went to TI5 last year, it was so awesome seeing so many diverse people in one place to watch Dota. There were people from countries all over the world there. I'm sure you all remember that interview Kaci did with that father and his daughter (<10 years old) dressed as Crystal Maiden. It just shows you how far the fanbase for Dota reaches. I saw another father with his kids that looked to be about 5 or 6, dressed up as Anti-Mage and Crystal Maiden. There were a lot more women there than you might think. In a way, it was almost like a live version of that Pokemon Super Bowl commercial (but for Dota of course), this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F46tGehnfo
Like I mentioned before, Valve's implemented features to get around language barriers do something unprecedented and allow people from all over the world to play together, and still be able to communicate effectively. Other games like LoL or StarCraft have a region lock as their answer. I think that's something truly impressive that just goes completely unnoticed about Dota, and at the same time, that's not really a bad thing. The fact that you just communicate with teammates that speak an entirely different language without even thinking about it is exactly what they want.
Dota has a ton of diversity in it, but many groups remain silent due to being ostracized by the community. If the community was a more welcoming place, rather than pushing people away because of perceived differences (gender, race, nationality, etc.), I guarantee you Dota would be a much better game overall for it.
I've seen variants of the n-word thrown around in an insulting manner, whether the target was actually black or not. If I had a dime for every racial slur for hispanic players I heard in game, I could retire right now.
NormalFish
Banned
You lucked out.
Not to mention, you don't need 'the N word' for it to be racist. You've never heard someone make spectacle of someone being black while playing dota? I don't believe that.
Sigismundo
Member
Friends, why is it whenever Slark pokes his head even remotely into the meta people shout for him to get nerfed to shit?
As much as I used to hate playing against him, I'm fine with him right now. If anything, I'm laughing at the ones that try to copycat the grEEdy build and then end up losing because of it.
Allowing more opportunities for up and coming talent ( in the casting/ analysis area) to get noticed would be a start. It's one thing to have a large portion of the talent at big events be proven and experienced people but taking chances on newer people or having big events where say newer people do group stages but experiences casters handle the main bracket and finals would help a lot. Right now it seems to be a matter of knowing the right people to get in with an already established organization or getting lucky and your content gets crazy popular ( the slacks and pflax way). I'm not saying we need quota's of x or y type of people just that we don't actually know what the best talent we could have is because (the current system makes it really hard for people to get noticed/ work their way into relevance). So many people say " majors should only be for the proven, you have to earn it ' etc etc. A lot of people don't watch smaller tournaments and cups, (I'm one of them so also part of the problem) there could be people we're missing out on because almost nobody sees/ hears them and so they never get a chance before a bigger audience and in turn have a harder time honing their craft because they don;t have enough feedback from what work they do.
Absolutely nothing can be done about variety in terms of pro players (and dota is actually way better at that than some competitive games out there). Of out the massive playerbase only a small percentage of people are going to be good enough to get on a pro team. lgbt, black, female etc, these people become minorities even within the already small percentage of high caliber players. Eventually people will pop up but they will naturally be far and few between.
The community could certainly be more welcoming but short of more aggressive penalties for poor behaviour and similar penalties if we had casters say call a trans person an "it' or make a homopobic/racist joke there's not much to be done to encourage people to choose dota 2 as a viable career.
A quick google implies there are also no black pro lol players, I know sc2 had a couple early on but they fell behind in skill. not sure about cod, fGC or other stuff.
I wouldn't be surprised if the simplest answer in NA is simply an economic one whereby there simply aren't enough black players with the time/ money/ support to devote to making it into the top percentage of players.
As for the community in general, racism is rampant, sexism is just as bad ( gods forbid I use voice to talk to my team and hope to not be sexually harassed, receive creepy messages/ demands for nudes, followup messages after game demanding my personal information etc etc) and some of the pro players can be just as fucking bad on their streams and no one calls them out on it because they are precious snowflakes whose skill puts them above reproach.
Absolutely nothing can be done about variety in terms of pro players (and dota is actually way better at that than some competitive games out there). Of out the massive playerbase only a small percentage of people are going to be good enough to get on a pro team. lgbt, black, female etc, these people become minorities even within the already small percentage of high caliber players. Eventually people will pop up but they will naturally be far and few between.
The community could certainly be more welcoming but short of more aggressive penalties for poor behaviour and similar penalties if we had casters say call a trans person an "it' or make a homopobic/racist joke there's not much to be done to encourage people to choose dota 2 as a viable career.
A quick google implies there are also no black pro lol players, I know sc2 had a couple early on but they fell behind in skill. not sure about cod, fGC or other stuff.
I wouldn't be surprised if the simplest answer in NA is simply an economic one whereby there simply aren't enough black players with the time/ money/ support to devote to making it into the top percentage of players.
As for the community in general, racism is rampant, sexism is just as bad ( gods forbid I use voice to talk to my team and hope to not be sexually harassed, receive creepy messages/ demands for nudes, followup messages after game demanding my personal information etc etc) and some of the pro players can be just as fucking bad on their streams and no one calls them out on it because they are precious snowflakes whose skill puts them above reproach.
Shuggananas
Banned
I think we'd have more black/female/etc pros or casters if the game were popular among these demographics, but as it stands it doesn't seem to be the case at all, and there's no reason to force people in just for the sake of it
And I doubt it has anything to do with racism or sexism, any community has its share of it, dota isn't an exception
And I doubt it has anything to do with racism or sexism, any community has its share of it, dota isn't an exception
NormalFish
Banned
not my fault people use stupid fucking names
Cause people suck at dota. Deep down you knew this.
Dota not being an exception is not a reason to tolerate a lack of acceptance.
"Oh look, those guys are being bigoted pricks, too!" fuck off with that.
You really underestimate how many people of those demographics actually play this game.
tsunami643
Member
omg
girl???
I don't think money has much to do with it. The FGC is simultaneously the most poverty, yet diverse, competitive gaming scene I've seen. Japanese, European, black, hispanic, men, women, trans, furry, fat, homeless. All playing and/or commentating at top levels. People of all creeds enjoy a good 1v1.
Shuggananas
Banned
That's not what I'm saying. Of course the community could be less shitty, but other communities don't have the same diversity problem (players, casters) while being shitty too
It's all about game popularity in certain demographics. FGCs have a lot of black players and commentators for instance, doubt there's no racism in them though. Good to note they're older/more mature communities
NormalFish
Banned
Yeah, this is one of my favourite things about the FGC. Even if stream monsters are shitters the community brings in anyone who can lay out some combos.
Do you have any actual reason to believe this game is less popular with those demographics other than there not being many in the proscene? Because that's circular reasoning at it's core.
Shuggananas
Banned
I've never heard of a black pubstar or a black caster (amateur or not), so there's that
Also the game is mostly popular in countries with few black minorities I guess ? ie easter europe/CIS, china and all. NA is only a portion of the community, and not the biggest one
Also the game is mostly popular in countries with few black minorities I guess ? ie easter europe/CIS, china and all. NA is only a portion of the community, and not the biggest one
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
and then you ask why dont we have cool presenters
There are are no Hispanics at all as far as I know, and like one black man in the scene at all, this is not because they are minorities, these demographics hardly play dota 2 , question is why.
Also, valve could easily fight the racism and sexism by punishing players caught on stream flaming,even a small fine from the prize pool in the next valve event would make all the pro players act much much better, and since most of the players are children and pros are their role models, this would help a lot
Listen, I know you're not doing it intentionally, I'm not blaming you at all, but you have to realize that this kind of attitude - one of passive acceptance and denial that the issues matter because it's the same everywhere - is absolutely a part of why the people who are marginalized feel unwelcome to voice how they feel, or why they feel unwelcome to stick around.
Shuggananas
Banned
Read my second reply, it's not acceptance, I'm saying it's not the (only) reason we don't have black/female players/casters
Monochromaticx
Member
its ok but she aint no GG
NormalFish
Banned
"And I doubt it has anything to do with racism or sexism, any community has its share of it, dota isn't an exception"
Dude please. There's no way this sentence isn't passively diminishing bigotry that anyone in their right mind would realize exists.
waxinlyrical
Member
Yeah, but you're kinda sugercoating it a bit too much. Remember the Tekken X SF fiasco where a female player quit the show because of rampant sexual harassment? Even now when Sophie Ortiz (I admit I had to look up her name I'm too used to calling her Ricki!) takes to the stage I can always count on good ole Twitch chat to erupt in a wave of comments making fun of her gender swap.
That said though, the solo, quick nature of fighting games definitely feels like it's more conducive towards welcoming people from all walks of life. Make derisive comments about a female player? If she beats your ass down in a match you learn to shut up quick. Compare that to Dota where games stretch out over an hour, and where sore losers can always complain "Oh she was just carried by the rest of the team" etc.
Shuggananas
Banned
Alright then let me reformulate, it's not the only reason, it's one of them
ppd's drafting game got a bit lazy/predictible at shanghai
Comparing it to the FGC is good because you can see the divide clearly. The fighting game community was born out of the arcade scene, while Dota 2 was born out of RTS PC games. Which of those two groups is more racially diverse isn't really up for debate.
I don't have much faith in Twitch chat but I do think there would be absolutely no problem accepting black people into the pro scene if there were players there to participate.
I don't have much faith in Twitch chat but I do think there would be absolutely no problem accepting black people into the pro scene if there were players there to participate.
Because people hate heroes that are hard to kill. It not liked he has even been buffed at all. The closest "buff" is that there are less AoE stun heroes in the meta right now.
Where are people bitching for him to be nerfed though?
I think the 1v1 makes fighting games far more accessible to all demographics. Dota being a 5v5 game on PC has a huge impact on which demographics the game is accessible to.
Plus, its super easy to set up a local fighting game tournament. The minimum is like 1 system, 1 TV, 2 controllers, and like 8 people to put own a show.
Alright then let me reformulate, it's not the only reason, it's one of them
My most picked hero prediction go ruined due to EG getting knocked out by Liquid. PPD would have defintially drafted VS, and likely would have banned out Invoker. So close to my points
Shuggananas
Banned
Earth spirit would like to have a word
yes he does, negating his ult destroys him
Wok
Member
Slark does not care about stuns.
whelp the practice room debacle got worse before it's getting better
Why would you ever touch somebody's keys. If you are on orders to clean the room immediately than keys should be taken to a front desk with a note about which room they came from.
https://twitter.com/OG_BDN0tail/status/706744549004083200
OG.BGN0tail: "Goodbye keyboard and mouseone day I'll return to China pubs to play versus my own peripherals. #fullcircle #headsupforthisplzXd"
https://twitter.com/the_evany/status/706753398255652864
Evany, OG manager: "There was miscommunication btwn PW and hotel. PW is willing to pay all costs of missing gear/items. However, poor Rotk's car keys are mia.." (It's freaking Maserati)
And apparently 1437's laptop charger was in a box with 100's of other random cables. Though to be fair I'm less concerned about stuff like that going missing/ getting lost than people's personal items or things much harder to replace. Pros are probably not happy about missing gear since they tend to end up real particular about stuff they use everyday
Why would you ever touch somebody's keys. If you are on orders to clean the room immediately than keys should be taken to a front desk with a note about which room they came from.
fuck
Monochromaticx
Member
rotk owns a maserati?
Don't know how much of this is true but I've seen mentioned a ton of times that minority communities (black, hispanic, etc) in NA are the poorest by far, so perhaps that's one of the reasons they don't have any representation in the pro scene, they don't have the monetary means of financing the pursuit of the dream for their kids or themselves.
The same thing happens in Europe if you think about it. There's barely any representation of peripheral (poorer) countries. Most, if not all, the players are from the richer zones.
The lack of female representation is a completely different issue. While video games don't ditch the "boys club" and "for kids" tags, there won't be that many females playing, casting, creating, etc.
NormalFish
Banned
Imp the Dimp
Member
Romania has a decent presence in the EU pro scene and the country is dirt poor by West and Central European Standards.
Shuggananas
Banned
And let's not pretend russia and ukraine are rich countries
NormalFish
Banned
Brazil and the middle east are gaining relevance as well.
**
Also what is this significant financial burden to stop people playing Dota, but doesn't prohibit folks from buying ps4s and fightsticks?
**
Also what is this significant financial burden to stop people playing Dota, but doesn't prohibit folks from buying ps4s and fightsticks?
what.
I imagine the FGC is easier and much cheaper to break into as would be any console shooter scene etc etc.
Could someone who knows both scenes run the numbers on what it would cost to be relevant in the fgc scene for say 5 years playing agame / iterations of the same game. I'm not talking high end fancy stuff you can have, just what you need to be good and remain competitive.
Then compare that to a decent gaming pc + peripherals etc you'd need to be a full time competitive pc gamer for the same amount of time.
I'm using 5 years a that seems a fair amount of time to get started, establish yourself in general then rise to the upper echelon of your chosen game. I could be wrong though so a little help mathwise would be nice.
I just don't see how it can be "does not appeal to demographic".in NA. You have AA, you have Jamaican, west indies, other distinctive groups who get lumped in as "black" I'm forgetting that all have communities here and somehow all of them don't want to play these types of games. That seems highly unlikely.
As for the women thing *shrugs* I know lots of other women who game but few who like to do so hyper competitively or who prefer other types of competitive games. I can see dota 2 having a decent female fanbase but not a large pool of female competitors to get a pro player out of. Sc2 had a handful of female pros though I only recall Scarlett ever actually won anything big ( and when she did win you'd sometimes get reddit all a fluster claiming that because she was a trans woman it didn't count and men were just better at the game etc etc).
Could someone who knows both scenes run the numbers on what it would cost to be relevant in the fgc scene for say 5 years playing agame / iterations of the same game. I'm not talking high end fancy stuff you can have, just what you need to be good and remain competitive.
Then compare that to a decent gaming pc + peripherals etc you'd need to be a full time competitive pc gamer for the same amount of time.
I'm using 5 years a that seems a fair amount of time to get started, establish yourself in general then rise to the upper echelon of your chosen game. I could be wrong though so a little help mathwise would be nice.
I just don't see how it can be "does not appeal to demographic".in NA. You have AA, you have Jamaican, west indies, other distinctive groups who get lumped in as "black" I'm forgetting that all have communities here and somehow all of them don't want to play these types of games. That seems highly unlikely.
As for the women thing *shrugs* I know lots of other women who game but few who like to do so hyper competitively or who prefer other types of competitive games. I can see dota 2 having a decent female fanbase but not a large pool of female competitors to get a pro player out of. Sc2 had a handful of female pros though I only recall Scarlett ever actually won anything big ( and when she did win you'd sometimes get reddit all a fluster claiming that because she was a trans woman it didn't count and men were just better at the game etc etc).
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
Looking at pictures I may have just made a huge error, particularly with Universe , but I am pretty sure Bulba and SumaiL are black
Shuggananas
Banned
Uh sumail is pretty much arab
Monochromaticx
Member
Arabs have the most 8k mmr players
All Arab team will be the best team in the history of dota
All Arab team will be the best team in the history of dota
People from Pakistan are black though as far as I am aware.
CIS region is an entirely different beast. You can argue that the f2p aspect of the game is what makes it a winner over there but then you have things like CS:GO that are also huge in those parts. It's hard to understand and truly a case-study material.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
pakistan and india are in the middle east?
Im sorry but what
Black people look NOTHING like people from Pakistan. Its not even the same continent. I honestly dont even know how to respond to this
- Status